Will NY state lands remain "forever wild"?

[PREDATE]

My dad brought up a theory that the state may be purposely holding up hydraulic fracturing so that they can do a practice run of fracking on NYstate lands once everyone else's gas leases come to an end so that only the state will benefit from it.  Do you guys think they could lawfully do this or are state lands truly "forever wild" ?

 

 I am pro- fracking.

 I see it as a great resource for NYS.

Last year alone PA netted Millions from fracking and I see no safety issues that are bad enough to halt it's progress into NYS.

 They are drilling a mile straight down and the pipe is encased in 2ft of concrete. All the fracking fluid is extracted and then properly treated. 1 mile below ground is well below the water table and most municipal water wells are no deeper than 200ft.  So where lies the danger? 

Edited April 14, 2013 by PREDATE

[tuckersdaddy]

No the state needs the private lands drilled to get the gas (and its royalties) out of state land with out drilling on state land. 

 

http://nyshalegasnow.blogspot.com/2012/03/norses-10th-another-marcellus-request.html

if you look at this map many of the proposed drill sites are drilled adjacent to state land, then continue under state land, then terminate on private land.

 

and just a heads up, you opened a can of worms on this site!

[PREDATE]

Hey I appreciate the reply and the heads up, but if asking a question and taking my personal stance in the form of words gets some feathers ruffled, then some serious reflection needs to take place in the minds of the naysayers. This state isn't going to progress if we don't allow it to.

 

I was really just wondering if the Forever Wild would hold true when the money grubbing politicians realize what we're sitting on.

[Doc]

I'm not sure how much state land is actually considered "forever wild" lands. I think most of it is considered multi-use areas. Exactly how that is defined isn't really all that clear to me.

 

I do doubt that any kind of mining and mineral extraction is a forbidden activity, but I have to say that I have never seen that written anywhere.

 

And since you also included fracking in your post, the jury is still out on that issue as far as I am concerned. I have heard good credible reports on both sides of the issue, and it has kind of been rendered down to a battle of one side's scientific claims against the other side's scientific claims, and it is an even match right now. I will say that anything that offers even a possibility of screwing up our drinking water is not something that I eagerly support. We take drinking water for granted here in the U.S. right? You simply turn the faucet and out it comes .... lol. There were some people over by Buffalo in a place called "Love Canal" that found out that it isn't always that guaranteed.

 

Frankly, I don't think anyone is arguing about what is happening a mile below the surface, but are having a problem with the inevitable spills and other accidental releases of the poisonous soup that they use. There are enough credible episodes of that sort of thing to catch my attention. Perhaps the science of this process isn't quite ready for wide-spread roll-out. Injecting toxins into the ground doesn't sound like a very responsible way to do business. it's kind of a one-way thing. Screw up the ground water and that pretty much is that .... forever.

 

I understand the economic arguments that are brought up, but also understand that those economic windfalls only apply to the handful of residents who happen to own land that is drillable. It's not accurate to portray this as an infusion of cash to a community, or even that much of an employment opportunity. This was the story peddled by the windfarm people, which actually turned out to be the corporations bringing in their own out-of-state crews to do all the work. Yes, a very few landowners added some money to their retirement accounts, and the entire area of residents were left with the huge whirly-gigs over-powering the landscape with absolutely no monetary benefits at all. So one thing I have learned is that corporations have turned P.R. into a very effective science, but the perceptions put out by them are very seldom anywhere near the truth.

 

Let's just put it this way .... all the jillions of dollars spent on convincing the public that this is a wonderful thing, really hasn't worked it's magic on me yet. Don't get me wrong, I think there is enough money involved in it all so that it will come to pass (consequences be damned), but that doesn't make it a good idea. I'm sure it won't bother the corporations a whole lot if I don't fall in line with support.....lol.

[Early]

Our State Forest Preserve lands, are protected by the Constitution as "Forever Wild". As such, they remain free from gas exploration until a Constitutional Amendment changes things. Don't look for that to happen anytime soon.

As to the recent (and not so recent) land purchases by the State in remote Adirondack regions...That boggles my mind. We New Yorkers are "land poor", and much of the land we own is so remote that most of the people cannot use it. There is a great need for outdoor recreation areas close to the people. The State, however, ignores that need. Instead, land purchases are made in areas that are essentially out of reach of many of us. Go figure!

[Rev Ev]

Personally, I am pro-fracking.  For many reasons.  I think that there are risks, much like nuclear power, however the gain outweighs bad.  It took me a while to get to this decision.  to answer your question, I don't think NYS would be able to do that, too many enviro guys would protest it.  But on private land, which is where I have seen the proposals, I think they will have a heyday.     

[tuckersdaddy]

early take a peek at the map i linked. the drill sights are on one side of state land, horizontal drilled to the other side of state land to a termination well. all the drilling is done on private land but cuts under state land. one of my favorite hunting spots will overlook both ends of a permit sight, and my home will be surrounded by them. the state will profit from this. the question is how much? that i believe is the hold up. the state (cuomo and the dem.  party) dose not want upstate rep. funded as well as the down state dems. at this point there is no reason as to why we are not producing gas. yep we know its downfalls, yep we know its windfalls, so keep the gas company's 'feet to the fire' on safety and enviro impact, and lets drill. Broome, tioga, and Chenango counties are contracting population/jobs wise, and the jobs that are leaving aren't minimum wage. its getting harder for those of us remaining to eek out a respectable living, and the taxes continue to rise to make up the differance. i'm very tired of people who have no stake in this on either side sticking there noses in and muddying up the waters. i tried to attend a meeting at BCC to hear some of the findings broome county had come up with but could not because the hall was full (i own property in broome and work there as well). come to find out the hall was filled with anti drill people from the ithaca area that had no buisness being there, and ended up being a anti fracking protest that disrupted the meeting and did not allow the information to be released. and dont get me started on musicians and actors against drilling, they need to stay the h*** out as well. i belive that if the gas companies are made to pay for clean ups before drilling begins benefits will be felt all around. My biggest concern at this point is loss of timing. with ohio and the dakotas taking advantage of the resources and nat. gas prices being at an all time low, we may have missed our moment to prosper. rant done.

[Early]

The State lands shown on the map you reference are not "Forever Wild" lands.  What that means...or will mean, I'm not sure.

[tuckersdaddy]

my original point to that rant (it did wander a bit) was the surface can be forever wild and still extract resources from under it. this will allow the state to receive the revenue from the gas without having to alter state land weather its forever wild or multi use. kind of an all reward no risk deal.

[PostedBoys Gallego]

I just do not understand how any good can come out of injecting 100's of toxic chemicals into the Earth, other than of course, making money from it. Here is a little reading:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=are-fracking-wastewater-wells-poisoning-ground-beneath-our-feeth

Im not claiming to have a better solution, but I can clearly see what is not a good thing. The wild animals we hunt would be drinking that toxic water first. Might as well call them Forever Toxic Lands thereafter.

I think we need to put more effort into our children's childrens future instead of the while I am alive scenario.

[tuckersdaddy]

gallego... thank you for confirming my rant. i see your from the queens area, no where near any proposed drilling areas with no concept of the condition in this area, yet you post a link that has little to no information concerning gas drilling. the link has to do with industrial waste that some states tried to store underground. the drilling companies are have began to recycle and process waste water to to current clean water standards. now to give you some in-site to this area.....we are hurt, period. the unemployment rate is around the 10% mark which is average everywhere, but the jobs that become available are less then $10/hr. our industrial base was depleted from a decrease in defense contracts (from the fed level) and a very unfriendly business climate (from the state), and property taxes (local level) that keep companies from putting down roots. the past 25yr decline has just hammered the work force, causing many well educated, and highly skilled workers to leave, making it even less desirable for new companies to move in. in the rural settings the farms that use to prosper and take up most of the country side no longer exsist. in broome county alone in 1980 there were over 100 running family dairy farms, now there are around 10. so now these folks are paying inflated taxes on hundreds of acres that no longer able to produce revenue (thats why down staters are able to buy 50+ acre hunting camps). Now it discovered that there is a huge amount of energy  to be produced at these sites, a way to inject some revenue into the economy, and help the area get back on its feet, and people who have no buisness interjecting there opinions into the discussion, keep us from exploring these options. now this isnt about greed, its about the little people trying to survive. we are not money hungry screw the enviroment people, we are farmers, hunters, and family people who are smart enough to ask questions to make sure its done properly, and preserve both the land in which we call home and our ability to live here. (wow thats 2 rants i need turkey season to start)

[PostedBoys Gallego]

I understand your economical concerns but you need to realize a couple things. First, this country is Ours. Not yours or mines exclusively. Everyone has a say in what goes on in the big cities or rural mountains. In fact, my plan is to move from the city because of my nature and I did not choose to be born in Queens anymore than someone chose to be born anywhere in the world. It is my concern regardless of whether I live there or not. I hunt there and I spend all my time off in the mountains. Im not totally against the idea of getting the resources, but the current method is very concerning to all Our water. Remember, we get our water from upstate.

You also need to realize not every downstater is filthy rich and can buy land anywhere they want. I have no house, no car, hardly savings. I live month to month like most and struggle each day to make a buck and support my family as well. I'd still prefer a better way of attaining those resources than the current method.

I just do not agree with the experimentation of methods used to only find out YEARS from now our waters are even more polluted than they already are and we have to now buy drinking water, our main life fuel. I dont think any amount of economical help is worth that.

Edited April 14, 2013 by PostedBoys Gallego

[PREDATE]

 Remember, we get our water from upstate.

 

Oh he went there!

 Do a little google search of Cannonsville,NY.

The towns people were railroaded and forced to evacuate their land and homes when NYC offered miniscule amounts of money to buy them off their lands. When folks demanded more money, NYC bulldozed all the buildings and flooded this town and a few others to make a watershed and never paid them at all!

 I realize this is off topic, but since my grandparents grew up, lived and worked there, I feel the need to mention it.

 As a matter of fact, my kidneys filter a little bit of your water!. Drink up city slickers.

Need a boost in water pressure? Hold on let me chug this glass of lemonade! lol

Edited April 14, 2013 by PREDATE

[sits in trees]

I too have heard some very credible scientific claims from both sides, the only thing that makes me doubtful about the pro fracking claims is that they were formed by big corporations.  

[PostedBoys Gallego]

Oh he went there!

 Do a little google search of Cannonsville,NY.

The towns people were railroaded and forced to evacuate their land and homes when NYC offered miniscule amounts of money to buy them off their lands. When folks demanded more money, NYC bulldozed all the buildings and flooded this town and a few others to make a watershed and never paid them at all!

 I realize this is off topic, but since my grandparents grew up, lived and worked there, I feel the need to mention it.

 As a matter of fact, my kidneys filter a little bit of your water!. Drink up city slickers.

Need a boost in water pressure? Hold on let me chug this glass of lemonade! lol

 

I didn't do it, but I'll read up on it for sure. Same thing happened to form the Pepacton. In the end its the way of the world. I can't stop it, you can't stop it, some will make money and some will get hurt. History repeats itself. I'm not in this for selfish reasons, I have no monetary or political interests. I just believe in clean water for you guys in the North, us City Slickers in the South, and everyone else, and hope we can at least agree on that.

[tuckersdaddy]

gellago, when you pay my property tax then its our land, until then its my land. with respects to the clean water, thats why i mentioned the gas companys need to pay for clean up before drilling and why we need to keep their feet to the fire. as far as you being rich? never stated anything to your economic status, i stated that the hunting camps being bought by down staters would not be avalible to purchase if the farmer/land owners were allowed to have their land produce an income.

 

and since you went there..... every time nyc needs an energy or natural resource increase, they have no problem impacting our envirorment, (cannonsville, pepacton, fitzpactrick 1 and 2, and more) but if there is a chance for someone upstate to make a couple of bucks on our resources (which by the way would benefit downstate more then upstate since most of us do not have natural gas service) then its made out like we are the bad guys. 

[PostedBoys Gallego]

gellago, when you pay my property tax then its our land, until then its my land. with respects to the clean water, thats why i mentioned the gas companys need to pay for clean up before drilling and why we need to keep their feet to the fire. as far as you being rich? never stated anything to your economic status, i stated that the hunting camps being bought by down staters would not be avalible to purchase if the farmer/land owners were allowed to have their land produce an income.

 

and since you went there..... every time nyc needs an energy or natural resource increase, they have no problem impacting our envirorment, (cannonsville, pepacton, fitzpactrick 1 and 2, and more) but if there is a chance for someone upstate to make a couple of bucks on our resources (which by the way would benefit downstate more then upstate since most of us do not have natural gas service) then its made out like we are the bad guys. 

 

Point taken, I am referring solely to State Land. If you trust corporations to clean your water, hope that works out for you. Not going to argue with you. I stand where I stand and you stand where you stand. Moving on...

[tuckersdaddy]

I too have heard some very credible scientific claims from both sides, the only thing that makes me doubtful about the pro fracking claims is that they were formed by big corporations.  

 

thats the only reason why i trust the fracking side is the long term finacial tie the big corps will have if something goes wrong. my suggestion has been make them put a clean up bond up front , say a half  billion or so, that will make them tow the line if they would like to see that money back. The anti frackers have been lying so long its tough to believe anything that comes out of that camp. i i dont believe in the end fracking will happen in ny, and it will have nothing to do with the science. as long as sheldon silver runs the dem. finances he will do anything he can to keep that kind of money and influence out of the hands of a more rep. upstate. 

Edited April 15, 2013 by tuckersdaddy

[PREDATE]

. I just believe in clean water for you guys in the North, us City Slickers in the South, and everyone else, and hope we can at least agree on that.

I do agree on that.

I just think hydrofracking has come quite a long ways since it began in 1949. Since then 2.5 Billion fracture treatments have been performed worldwide. Maybe the methods for preventing wastewater spills could be improved, if so then it will be worth the wait.

[Doc]

thats the only reason why i trust the fracking side is the long term finacial tie the big corps will have if something goes wrong. my suggestion has been make them put a clean up bond up front , say a half  billion or so, that will make them tow the line if they would like to see that money back. The anti frackers have been lying so long its tough to believe anything that comes out of that camp. i i dont believe in the end fracking will happen in ny, and it will have nothing to do with the science. as long as sheldon silver runs the dem. finances he will do anything he can to keep that kind of money and influence out of the hands of a more rep. upstate. 

Is that what it costs to clean up an aquifer once it's been poisoned? By the way, how exactly do they do that? It seems to me that once that "toxin soup" leaches into the water, that's it ...... game over.

 

As far as exactly who it is that is lying, I maintain that each side spins a pretty good yarn, and it's hard to pick exactly who is full of crap. So then I guess us uneducated folks have to rely on motives. I know there are a few people that stand to make a whole pile of money. Hell, enough money to buy politicians and a few landowners as well. That all adds up to a pile of motive for cover-ups and creation of false science. Frankly I am glad there are people asking the tough questions that go a bit farther than, "How much money can we make".

[tuckersdaddy]

Is that what it costs to clean up an aquifer once it's been poisoned? By the way, how exactly do they do that? It seems to me that once that "toxin soup" leaches into the water, that's it ...... game over.

 

As far as exactly who it is that is lying, I maintain that each side spins a pretty good yarn, and it's hard to pick exactly who is full of crap. So then I guess us uneducated folks have to rely on motives. I know there are a few people that stand to make a whole pile of money. Hell, enough money to buy politicians and a few landowners as well. That all adds up to a pile of motive for cover-ups and creation of false science. Frankly I am glad there are people asking the tough questions that go a bit farther than, "How much money can we make".

 

half a billion is an off the cuff number, maybe the number is a billion, maybe fifty billion. the point is if the gas company has to front enough money  to cover any clean up costs, they will do all the necessary processes to ensure a clean and safe drill in order to get that money back. if the gas companies see the risk is greater than the reward, they wont drill. simple business. worried about compliance? put an independent compliance officer on each drill sight, paid by a fee charged to the gas company, that reports to say the dec. the biggest peeve i have is the outsider antis coming here and telling us what is right or wrong. doc you are in the shale area and have doubts, grow has made it clear she is against it and lives in the shale area, your voices should be heard, your questions answered. however when nyc people, or loco ono, or a french movie director come here and tell us what we should and shouldnt be doing i get a bit riled up. same idea as these same people telling me i dont need an 'aw' to kill a deeeeeeer. its not their concern. 

as i stated to sits, i dont believe drilling will happen here for political (money) reasons, and the longer they string it out, the more opportunity is lost. 

[mike rossi]

Has anybody who has already formed opinions on this taken a drive around where they frack in PA? I have and its not impressive... Note the pheasant on the dash. Going to be impossible  trying to hear those gobblers with those flares roaring.

 

http://youtu.be/KX7piCD_nWw

 

 

Edited April 15, 2013 by mike rossi

[mike rossi]

thats the only reason why i trust the fracking side is the long term finacial tie the big corps will have if something goes wrong. my suggestion has been make them put a clean up bond up front , say a half  billion or so, that will make them tow the line if they would like to see that money back. The anti frackers have been lying so long its tough to believe anything that comes out of that camp. i i dont believe in the end fracking will happen in ny, and it will have nothing to do with the science. as long as sheldon silver runs the dem. finances he will do anything he can to keep that kind of money and influence out of the hands of a more rep. upstate. 

 

never mind.

Edited April 15, 2013 by mike rossi

[sits in trees]

And besides how much does anyone really think they will benefit by big gas corps making a ton of money on gas fracking in our backyards. Look how well we have done with big oil and their promises. Record oil and gas prices despite oil being drilled right here in the states at record amounts. Then they tell us well it goes to the world market and speculators set the price worldwide, sorry. And this is some how supposed to justify 40% increases in gasoline and heating oil in 2 week periods. Yea bend over America.

Im sorry but I just have to look at anything a corporation tells me will be good for us with just a touch of skepticism....

[Doc]

Has anybody who has already formed opinions on this taken a drive around where they frack in PA? I have and its not impressive... Note the pheasant on the dash. Going to be impossible  trying to hear those gobblers with those flares roaring.

 

You know how the internet works ..... you start watching a link that someone provides and before you know it, you are off wandering into other pages and spending all kinds of time that you never intended to .... lol. Well, that's what happened when I checked out the above link. Before I knew it, I was watching videos of a lady setting her tap-water on fire, and other people talking about having to leave windows open year around to alleviate the gas fume build-ups in their house. Others were shown receiving water deliveries because their sources were contaminated beyond use. There were other people complaining about a constant parade of heavy trucks rumbling by their house. And you get the idea .... it was some direct testimony by ordinary people at their houses, or at wherever they had to move to escape the environmental hazards that were occurring at their former homes. I found these people to be very credible. It is a little exercise that might be worth the time of anyone who is in love with the hydrofracking process, or thinks that opposition to it is simply hysteria, or simply those that care to be educated a little on the issue.

 

The more I learn about this process, the more I find myself on the side that is concerned about what is being rammed down our throats in the name of corporate profits. Check some of that stuff out. It's quite eye-opening. This world already has enough man-made contamination and poisons injected into our lives. I am beginning to be quite skeptical of this process as another major self-induced environmental catastrophe. And I think the argument that it is all for "jobs" just isn't quite hacking it as a justification for poisoning a resource that is required for human life.