Please help yourself and your friends that wish to have more time to hunt!

[Five Seasons]

Sorry about your headache.

If you don't want to look into the subtle style that is your choice. Would I be right to tell you to get off this sight for not wanting to put in the time & think about what is written before answering based on quick reflex?

Again that is your choice and none of my business. It really doesn't affect me either way.

 

someone with 6 posts is not going to influence my decision to get off this SITE. I will just stop responding to your posts. Just wanted to give you a heads up as to why I'm ignoring you and to halt your "see he didn't answer my question because he knows I'm right" post.

[WNYBuckHunter]

a ton? really? But to say "a ton" is something I'd have to disagree with. we can never prove eachother wrong because there is no study or criteria of what constitutes "practice" to prove either side. New hunters need more of it than older. Bowhunting is not something I know many people enter into half assed.

 

I myself know directly, of more than 10. Figure out the statistics lol.

[jjb4900]

I myself know directly, of more than 10. Figure out the statistics lol.

I bet the year round shooter is outnumbered 5 to 1 by the half assed shooter..........and I think that's being conservative.

[Shedder]

someone with 6 posts is not going to influence my decision to get off this SITE. I will just stop responding to your posts. Just wanted to give you a heads up as to why I'm ignoring you and to halt your "see he didn't answer my question because he knows I'm right" post.

Oh my it was a parallel to you demanding the crossbow hunter out of the woods!

I don't want you off this site...it's just an honest debate!

6 posts has nothing to do with the logic I write. The fact is you are using the same argument that traditional bow hunters used against you, me...us as compound bow hunters in the 70's.

You might question; hypocrite?

A crossbow is not a rifle it uses a string to propel an arrow. End of story.

[Doc]

The qualifier is a given, seeing as we are talking about archery season, not a gun season. Archery hunting, no matter what type of bow you are carrying, requires not only the skill to take the shot, but more so the skill to get within range of the animal.

 

We arent talking about the easiest way to kill a deer.

And the rifle does that so much better than a crossbow, wouldn't you agree? You wouldn't find quite so many of those nasty lazy archers out there wounding deer because their weaponry is something they are not willing to put time into. That would satisfy your itch about irresponsible bowhunters.

 

Look, I'm pretty sure you are smart enough to know exactly what the point is that I am making. There is no need for me to waste time explaining it further. If you can't understand it, it probably is because you don't want to understand it.

[Doc]

The fact is you are using the same argument that traditional bow hunters used against you, me...us as compound bow hunters in the 70's.

You might question; hypocrite?

 

Ha-ha .... and as it turns out, those old-timers were exactly right weren't they? They claimed that the compound would be the precedent for further encroachments of other weapons on bow hunting. And by golly, isn't that exactly what is happening. Kind of makes you wonder just what will follow the crossbow.

 

Hypocrite? Maybe just a good student of bowhunting history might be an appropriate description.

[jjb4900]

Ha-ha .... and as it turns out, those old-timers were exactly right weren't they? They claimed that the compound would be the precedent for further encroachments of other weapons on bow hunting. And by golly, isn't that exactly what is happening. Kind of makes you wonder just what will follow the crossbow.

 

Hypocrite? Maybe just a good student of bowhunting history might be an appropriate description.

good point.

[WNYBuckHunter]

And the rifle does that so much better than a crossbow, wouldn't you agree? Look, I'm pretty sure you are smart enough to know exactly what the point is that I am making. There is no need for me to waste time explaining it further. If you can't understand it, it probably is because you don't want to understand it.

 

I do understand what you are saying, but it really has nothing to do with the point I am making. You are just taking something to an extreme. Using that logic in the reverse, you might as well limit bow season to home made longbows that you have to hew from a maximum of 3 pieces of wood. All wood arrow shafts and flint arrowheads with sinew to hold everything together.

[jjb4900]

I do understand what you are saying, but it really has nothing to do with the point I am making. You are just taking something to an extreme. Using that logic in the reverse, you might as well limit bow season to home made longbows that you have to hew from a maximum of 3 pieces of wood. All wood arrow shafts and flint arrowheads with sinew to hold everything together.

that's why NY needs to restructure their hunting seasons......I would have no problem allowing true primitive weapons an earlier season, whether it be true primitive bows or true primitive muzzleloaders.

[Doc]

I do understand what you are saying, but it really has nothing to do with the point I am making. You are just taking something to an extreme. Using that logic in the reverse, you might as well limit bow season to home made longbows that you have to hew from a maximum of 3 pieces of wood. All wood arrow shafts and flint arrowheads with sinew to hold everything together.

There is nothing that can be done about 40 year old law that has been hard-instituted as archery tradition now. You are not going to turn back the clock and that is the point of the finality of polluting bow seasons with more contraptions. But one would think that somewhere along the line people would learn to benefit from history instead of ignoring it. My theory is that people probably are not interested all that much in what archery becomes. In fact the more mechanized and automatic the better. That fits so much better into today's schedules and needs for instant gratification. Bowseason has become simply access to a more comfortable time of the year, and the mechanics and tradition of it all be damned. That's simply a sign of the times and there is no minority that is going to stand in the way of that kind of cultural evolution.

 

Just as an aside, I often wonder just how much more rewarding and fulfilling bowhunting would have been if compounds had been denied. Perhaps the original intents of the framers of bowseasons would be still intact. Perhaps the object of bowhunting would still be focused on hunting rather than shooting, and challenge rather than expectations of trophies. It is an interesting thing to contemplate.

[jjb4900]

just look at what happened with muzzleloaders.......there is zero difference between modern, scoped, inline muzzleloaders and a shotgun or rifle........the only difference is that now we can shoot does on a regular or archery tag..........in fact, my hunting group have discussed scrapping the regular season and spending more time muzzleloader hunting, and why not? we have guns that can shoot 200 yards and take either a buck or doe without dealing with the crowded regular season.

[Doc]

just look at what happened with muzzleloaders.......there is zero difference between modern, scoped, inline muzzleloaders and a shotgun or rifle........the only difference is that now we can shoot does on a regular or archery tag..........in fact, my hunting group have discussed scrapping the regular season and spending more time muzzleloader hunting, and why not? we have guns that can shoot 200 yards and take either a buck or doe without dealing with the crowded regular season.

It's the same thing. Even muzzleloading has lost it's identity. Technology has buried the very reason that they have a "special" season. I know there is a lot of discussion among those that only engage in the regular shotgun season about why muzzleloading is in fact a special season. In fact I have often wondered that myself. I really hope that we don't someday encounter those same thoughts with bow seasons.

 

I have to admit that I have heard and read a lot of bitching and complaining about how bow season success rates are wacking a lot of great bucks before the shotgunners even get a crack at them. Whether that is really true or not doesn't change the fact that that is the growing perception. Lets hope that thought never gains traction and finds its way into legal season changes. Bowhunters are not in the majority, and if the anti-bowhunting attitudes among gunners continue to grow ...... who knows? Someday we may find our growing successes lead to our demise.

[jjb4900]

sadly, we may someday have a deer season where they say "here's you're deer tags, fill them anyway you can".

[Culvercreek hunt club]

As hunter number decrease and the deer population continues to grow, That may not get too big of a stretch

Edited June 26, 2013 by Culvercreek hunt club

[WNYBuckHunter]

There is nothing that can be done about 40 year old law that has been hard-instituted as archery tradition now. You are not going to turn back the clock and that is the point of the finality of polluting bow seasons with more contraptions. But one would think that somewhere along the line people would learn to benefit from history instead of ignoring it. My theory is that people probably are not interested all that much in what archery becomes. In fact the more mechanized and automatic the better. That fits so much better into today's schedules and needs for instant gratification. Bowseason has become simply access to a more comfortable time of the year, and the mechanics and tradition of it all be damned. That's simply a sign of the times and there is no minority that is going to stand in the way of that kind of cultural evolution.

Just as an aside, I often wonder just how much more rewarding and fulfilling bowhunting would have been if compounds had been denied. Perhaps the original intents of the framers of bowseasons would be still intact. Perhaps the object of bowhunting would still be focused on hunting rather than shooting, and challenge rather than expectations of trophies. It is an interesting thing to contemplate.

I dont see how they ruined anything, bowhunting is still more about the hunting than he shooting. So what if you are shooting a compound at 30 yards or a crossbow at 30 yards, you still had the challenge of getting to know how to hunt deer well enough to get that deer within 30 yards for a shot. Didnt you?

[Doc]

I dont see how they ruined anything, bowhunting is still more about the hunting than he shooting. So what if you are shooting a compound at 30 yards or a crossbow at 30 yards, you still had the challenge of getting to know how to hunt deer well enough to get that deer within 30 yards for a shot. Didnt you?

I know you are not understanding a bit of what I am saying. I guess it is probably a generational thing left over from those of us who understood the basic philosophies behind the creation of our bow season. If the whole thing was about distance, a person could do the same thing with a rifle and just limit himself to a certain distance. There are some pistol set-ups that are only good for 30 yards too. Some flintlock weapons are barely better than a bow in terms of effective distance, especially given the skill levels of most participants .... lol. If bow hunting was defined by distance, we would have quite an array of weapons in the season most of which really would have nothing to do with a bow. Believe it or not, there was a time when we really understood what bow hunting is. The whole thing was, amazingly enough, about using a bow. Today it is mostly about various technological advantages and items that have more to do with what someone else has invented for us than our own strengths, disciplines, and desires to meet challenges. And on and on it marches through compounds and now crossbows and who can predict what all, off into the future as this technology continues to take over something that was once so basic and simple. Yes, the nature of bow hunting has morphed into something that doesn't even resemble what it was originally. The evolution has occurred not only in the equipment, but the very attitudes of the participants. It's not an activity of self reliance and individual achievements, but more a case of who can buy the most technically advanced contraption. And yes there are plenty of participants who will continue to say ..... "So what? And there are those of us who continue to unsuccessfully attempt to explain the differences. And it is all in vain because it is all based on dated attitudes toward the sport and the experiences along the way. We valued different things when modern bow hunting became a sport. However, we also have to admit that it was people of my generation that let the genie out of the bottle with the compound. And so it will be that this current generation will continue to re-make bow hunting in sweeping dramatic ways. And people like myself should really get updated and adopt that same attitude of "so what". It really isn't the end of the world by any means .... lol.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I understand what you are saying Doc, I just dont agree with all of it. You seem to have a default argument for anything that anyone you dont agree with says. The one you just proclaimed, takes what Im saying to an extreme, as many of your arguments tend to do, Especially on this subject. While you do have a completely valid point with it, its still the extreme end of what if. Not really what Im talking about.

To me, bow season is about hunting deer that have yet to be thrown off their normal routines, and developing the skill to get close enough to kill them with what boils down to a stick and string.

[Five Seasons]

Just as an aside, I often wonder just how much more rewarding and fulfilling bowhunting would have been if compounds had been denied. Perhaps the original intents of the framers of bowseasons would be still intact. Perhaps the object of bowhunting would still be focused on hunting rather than shooting, and challenge rather than expectations of trophies. It is an interesting thing to contemplate.

 

I ponder that as well. Being born into the compound era I never used a recurve, I realize I could if I wanted. Honestly I find bowhunting challenging enough though. There are hours of practice needed just to master the weapon, let alone the hours and hours in the woods learning when to draw, to calm your nerves and hunting in such a way to get the deer closer than you would with a gun. A recurve I believe only adds time to the mastering of the weapon and also decreasing your effective distance, but the mechanics of actually shooting and the way you hunt does not change as much. It's certainly on my bucket list to take a deer, even if it's a doe with a recurve.

 

just look at what happened with muzzleloaders.......there is zero difference between modern, scoped, inline muzzleloaders and a shotgun or rifle........the only difference is that now we can shoot does on a regular or archery tag..........in fact, my hunting group have discussed scrapping the regular season and spending more time muzzleloader hunting, and why not? we have guns that can shoot 200 yards and take either a buck or doe without dealing with the crowded regular season.

 

zero difference? What sort of muzzleloader and shotgun do you hunt with? I realize they're certainly not the civil war era guns, but you also certainly cant flail away like a shotgun hunter that I hear every opening day.

 

 

I have to admit that I have heard and read a lot of bitching and complaining about how bow season success rates are wacking a lot of great bucks before the shotgunners even get a crack at them. Whether that is really true or not doesn't change the fact that that is the growing perception. Lets hope that thought never gains traction and finds its way into legal season changes. Bowhunters are not in the majority, and if the anti-bowhunting attitudes among gunners continue to grow ...... who knows? Someday we may find our growing successes lead to our demise.

 

but nothing stops those gun hunters from picking up a bow and learning how to hunt with it. And stats show they are. bowhunting numbers have been growing for years in NY and many other states. The stats have been published and posted here dozens of times. I have no issues with more hunters joining the ranks as long as they embrace some of the unwritten rules of the sport. If not, we as bowhunters will start to suffer the same stereotype as the cig smoking pumpkin at the gas station buying a 30 pack for deer camp associated with opening weekend of gun. I have no problem with this hunter either, but I'd rather they help maintain the archery season as I know it. And honestly I believe those that give up on archery because it's "too hard" are exactly that individual. Make it easier for me please! I want to go into the woods hungover and smelling like a bar room stall and shoot a deer!

Edited June 27, 2013 by Belo

[jjb4900]

it would be interesting to know what each person's bowhunting background is..........when I started, recurves were the norm and compounds were just coming onto the scene. Treestands had yet to take off and most hunting was done from groundblinds. There is no doubt that bowhunting has gotten easier and easier, and there is no doubt that is because of the modern equipment............I guess if you never saw the way bowhunting was when it first started, you'll never understand how some are seeing the way the sport is changing, and not for the better.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2013 by jjb4900

[Five Seasons]

i wouldn't say it's just the equipment that has made it "easier". Television, specificially cable and the net allow us to share tips, tricks and tactics much easier. The invention of better scents, mock scrape, and of course better cammo and scent masking/blocking clothing and sprays all play a role.

 

I'm 29 and have only ever hunted with my mathews switchback out of hang on treestands. I have only ever hunted with scent blocker and reatltree or mossy oak cammo. My family has been hunting for generations and a lot of the older photos show them in black face paint and the lumberjack jackets or tiger stripe army camo. I think there's just a better understanding of how to hunt deer. Sure native americans have known for years about scrapes and rubs and beds. But how well did the general hunter know about these and how to utilize them? Lets not forget about the whole new movement of food plots. The sport itself has grown, not just he archery season. My grandfather passed this spring at 81. Still had iron sights on his browning.

[Shedder]

Ha-ha .... and as it turns out, those old-timers were exactly right weren't they? They claimed that the compound would be the precedent for further encroachments of other weapons on bow hunting. And by golly, isn't that exactly what is happening. Kind of makes you wonder just what will follow the crossbow.

Hypocrite? Maybe just a good student of bowhunting history might be an appropriate description.

Nothing is stopping anyone from using a longbow instead of a compound. The fact is the compound bow did nothing to ruin the tradition of hunting with traditional archery equipment. It was the very traditional bowhunter who accepted and picked up the compound bow. Few the ones who walked away from the woods as a result of the compound...well seems like walking thru life with blinders on.

So did the compound ruin archery??? Hell I think it made the industry explode! Not implode but explode. Again the choice is yours what weapon you use wether traditional or compound.

What's next you ask?

You will have the choice to use traditional, compound or modern archery equipment.

Looking into the future you are asking me to do:

I don't know but I imagIne we will see more forgiving bows that are even easier to draw, hold and shoot with zero bow shock. With arrow speeds of 400 feet per second, I see improvement in peep sights or the elimination of them to aid in quicker target sight alignment, you point at your target and your sight ranges it and the correct crosshair will light up on your sight for the distance that's what I see coming for the compound.

It's called progress and archery is part of it.

[Doc]

Nothing is stopping anyone from using a longbow instead of a compound. The fact is the compound bow did nothing to ruin the tradition of hunting with traditional archery equipment. It was the very traditional bowhunter who accepted and picked up the compound bow. Few the ones who walked away from the woods as a result of the compound...well seems like walking thru life with blinders on.

So did the compound ruin archery??? Hell I think it made the industry explode! Not implode but explode. Again the choice is yours what weapon you use wether traditional or compound.

What's next you ask?

You will have the choice to use traditional, compound or modern archery equipment.

Looking into the future you are asking me to do:

I don't know but I imagIne we will see more forgiving bows that are even easier to draw, hold and shoot with zero bow shock. With arrow speeds of 400 feet per second, I see improvement in peep sights or the elimination of them to aid in quicker target sight alignment, you point at your target and your sight ranges it and the correct crosshair will light up on your sight for the distance that's what I see coming for the compound.

It's called progress and archery is part of it.

Yes and eventually in the name of progress, we will begin to accept weapons that don't even look like a bow. And people will continue to flood into the sport and we will continue to pat ourselves on the back because of it. The real funny thing is that while we think we are being so successful and counting all the numbers of people who are flooding into bow seasons, there has to be a growing suspicion that  we are simply transferring people from gun seasons into bow seasons. Over-all hunter numbers continue to slide even as the bow hunting ranks grow. The success that we are bragging about is merely hunter re-distribution. The closer our equipment emulates guns, and the more we continue to squeeze the challenge and personal accomplishment out of the sport, the more redistribution that will take place. Is that making bow seasons better or more successful? Is that progress?

 

Unfortunately, each one of these pieces of "progress" removes the very purpose of separating the bows out of the regular gun hunting seasons in the first place. We said that we needed special seasons and bag limits to compensate for the difficulty of our sport. But, we keep getting closer and closer to the quality, attitudes, and equipment of the gun seasons that we said we had to separate ourselves from. We call that progress and we call that success. Was bow hunting really meant to be ruled by technology? I suppose that comes with answers that vary by generation also. Sure we're all suckers for the gadgets and go-fasters, but I draw lines and set boundaries. It just seems logical when you are talking about an activity rooted in tradition and history. When have we gone too far? I know we all have our own idea of where those limits should be drawn, but the plain practical truth is that none of us has the ability to stop this technology craze once it has begun.

 

Bow season was initially set up to provide a time for use of some pretty primitive equipment. That notion has been pretty much eliminated when the compound came along. We are doing our best to eliminate the reasons that we have a "special" season. The compound was a "baby step" and even with all the pulleys and cables, the actual procedure and disciplines  and principles of use remained exactly the same. But what the compound did do was to set the precedents that  served as enablers for the next generation of contraption. Each generation of bastardization of the bow becomes more extreme and sets the way for the next pollutant coming after it. So yes we are "progressing" toward combining bow hunting back in with gun hunting both in technology and attitudes. Is that really progress? Not in a good direction as far as I am concerned. We are getting to the point where the next generation of technological progress will simply be to go back and pick up a rifle....lol. That's kind of where the "end-game" of all this "progress" is heading anyway.

[jjb4900]

I always felt that part of the allure of bow season was that it didn't attract everyone because it required a certain amount of dedication............my guess is if crossbows are ever allowed in bowseason, the guys who have put off picking up a bow because they either don't have the time or desire to learn to shoot a bow, will get a crossbow and spend a day or two sighting it in before they hit the woods.

[Doc]

I always felt that part of the allure of bow season was that it didn't attract everyone because it required a certain amount of dedication............my guess is if crossbows are ever allowed in bowseason, the guys who have put off picking up a bow because they either don't have the time or desire to learn to shoot a bow, will get a crossbow and spend a day or two sighting it in before they hit the woods.

Well, I have to admit that bow hunting would be a very different activity if the bow hunter density ever became anything like current gun season hunter density. And for sure that situation would definitely turn the quality of the hunt into crap. But I don't really worry about it getting to that extreme (I could be wrong). But my biggest fear is that just as the compound served as a precedent for the crossbow, the crossbow will serve as the precedent for whatever contraption comes next on the parade.

 

I also worry about people eventually questioning why we have the privilege of special seasons. I already see muzzle loaders eyeballing chunks of the early bow season. There are others that are also questioning why we are allowed to take the cream of the hunting season crop. As our success rates continue to climb, and technology continues to add fuel to the fire, we may be providing ammo to their arguments. We have arrogantly believed that we can add whatever we want to bow seasons and still maintain the advantages won over in years past. Well, it just might happen that we are in for a rude shock one of these days. We may learn in a very uncomfortable way that we are indeed in the minority in the hunting community.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I always felt that part of the allure of bow season was that it didn't attract everyone because it required a certain amount of dedication............my guess is if crossbows are ever allowed in bowseason, the guys who have put off picking up a bow because they either don't have the time or desire to learn to shoot a bow, will get a crossbow and spend a day or two sighting it in before they hit the woods.

And if they dont dedicate themselves to doing what it takes to consistently get deer within range, they will quit. Either that, or adapt. Maybe even they will look to a vertical bow for even more of a challenge.