Please help yourself and your friends that wish to have more time to hunt!

[Shedder]

Yes and eventually in the name of progress, we will begin to accept weapons that don't even look like a bow. And people will continue to flood into the sport and we will continue to pat ourselves on the back because of it. The real funny thing is that while we think we are being so successful and counting all the numbers of people who are flooding into bow seasons, there has to be a growing suspicion that  we are simply transferring people from gun seasons into bow seasons. Over-all hunter numbers continue to slide even as the bow hunting ranks grow. The success that we are bragging about is merely hunter re-distribution. The closer our equipment emulates guns, and the more we continue to squeeze the challenge and personal accomplishment out of the sport, the more redistribution that will take place. Is that making bow seasons better or more successful? Is that progress?

 

Unfortunately, each one of these pieces of "progress" removes the very purpose of separating the bows out of the regular gun hunting seasons in the first place. We said that we needed special seasons and bag limits to compensate for the difficulty of our sport. But, we keep getting closer and closer to the quality, attitudes, and equipment of the gun seasons that we said we had to separate ourselves from. We call that progress and we call that success. Was bow hunting really meant to be ruled by technology? I suppose that comes with answers that vary by generation also. Sure we're all suckers for the gadgets and go-fasters, but I draw lines and set boundaries. It just seems logical when you are talking about an activity rooted in tradition and history. When have we gone too far? I know we all have our own idea of where those limits should be drawn, but the plain practical truth is that none of us has the ability to stop this technology craze once it has begun.

 

Bow season was initially set up to provide a time for use of some pretty primitive equipment. That notion has been pretty much eliminated when the compound came along. We are doing our best to eliminate the reasons that we have a "special" season. The compound was a "baby step" and even with all the pulleys and cables, the actual procedure and disciplines  and principles of use remained exactly the same. But what the compound did do was to set the precedents that  served as enablers for the next generation of contraption. Each generation of bastardization of the bow becomes more extreme and sets the way for the next pollutant coming after it. So yes we are "progressing" toward combining bow hunting back in with gun hunting both in technology and attitudes. Is that really progress? Not in a good direction as far as I am concerned. We are getting to the point where the next generation of technological progress will simply be to go back and pick up a rifle....lol. That's kind of where the "end-game" of all this "progress" is heading anyway.

Doc, great response...I think the flood of people you will see will be those bow hunters who had to hang their bows up on the mantle either due to age or injury.  The fact is the effective range of a crossbow is no longer than a compound and probably a tad shorter due to the weight of the arrow.  Its still about getting inside that bucks safe zone his area where all his senses are on full alert.  Its not a rifle or shotgun where you see him cross a field at 200 yards and put a bullet into his heart.  He has to be in that same zone as he needs to be as any bow hunter.  You here him breath hell you see his nostrils flare at your scent trail!  

This isn't something you just walk into the woods and do its the part of bow hunting that most of us have fallen in love with.  A great gun hunter doesn't have to make even an ok bow hunter. 

To get in bow range is the challenge, the nuts of a bow hunter and that holds true if you are toting a crossbow as well. 

As far as the progress part and crossbow eliminating the pureness of the bow world. 

That pureness has and will continue to pollute archery on its own.  That progress I stated was how the compound has evolved and continues to evolve...our compound is more and more a no brainer when it comes to a killing machine than we ever thought possible.  With Today's bows a newbie can walk into a pro shop pick up his bow for the first time and be shooting consistent groups in no time with some good instruction.  Is that bad or is that good?  I guess that depends on who you talk to???

That doesn't have to do with, crossbows, guns or anything else but the evolution of the compound bow.  I agree with you about setting boundaries for yourself.  I went back to instinctive shooting on my late father's old lemon wood longbow.  I pulled it out during the season and had a blast a few years ago!  It didn't matter what the guy down the road was using as long as it was legal.  

Edited June 27, 2013 by Shedder

[Doc]

Doc, great response...I think the flood of people you will see will be those bow hunters who had to hang their bows up on the mantle either due to age or injury.  The fact is the effective range of a crossbow is no longer than a compound and probably a tad shorter due to the weight of the arrow.  Its still about getting inside that bucks safe zone his area where all his senses are on full alert.  Its not a rifle or shotgun where you see him cross a field at 200 yards and put a bullet into his heart.  He has to be in that same zone as he needs to be as any bow hunter.  You here him breath hell you see his nostrils flare at your scent trail!  

This isn't something you just walk into the woods and do its the part of bow hunting that most of us have fallen in love with.  A great gun hunter doesn't have to make even an ok bow hunter. 

To get in bow range is the challenge, the nuts of a bow hunter and that holds true if you are toting a crossbow as well. 

As far as the progress part and crossbow eliminating the pureness of the bow world. 

That pureness has and will continue to pollute archery on its own.  That progress I stated was how the compound has evolved and continues to evolve...our compound is more and more a no brainer when it comes to a killing machine than we ever thought possible.  With Today's bows a newbie can walk into a pro shop pick up his bow for the first time and be shooting consistent groups in no time with some good instruction.  Is that bad or is that good?  I guess that depends on who you talk to???

That doesn't have to do with, crossbows, guns or anything else but the evolution of the compound bow.  I agree with you about setting boundaries for yourself.  I went back to instinctive shooting on my late father's old lemon wood longbow.  I pulled it out during the season and had a blast a few years ago!  It didn't matter what the guy down the road was using as long as it was legal.  

Not a lot here to disagree with. But I do think you are missing my point about revisions not ending with the crossbow. It is just another precedent setting addition that is sure to be followed by more in the future.

[mike rossi]

Not a lot here to disagree with. But I do think you are missing my point about revisions not ending with the crossbow. It is just another precedent setting addition that is sure to be followed by more in the future.

I would attribute it at least as much to a societal paradigm shift as I would to technology. We all hunt for different reasons and maintain a different level of ethics. Some of that is explained in hunter education manuals in the chapter about the different stages of hunters. I would not be surprised if natural resource agencies have adopted the marketing research tools used by business and can look at the hunting demographic data and predict social trends in hunting. Whether they do or do not, the attitudinal change in hunters is pretty obvious. Since this change has been occurring gradually for many years, it is not restricted to a trendy youth, but to the late baby boomers, which in addition to comprising of the bulk of hunters, are the ones involved in the political arena of hunting via the boards and clubs. Since there is no term limits on state senators and assembly members, many of these older hunters have a long association with members of the legislature, particularly with members of the Republican Party.

That old boy relationship with the republican party allows pro-hunting legislation to succeed in the state senate, where there are 63 seats, many of which are occupied by republicans, as a matter of fact, some critics accuse the senate districting of being Gerry-mandered, but that’s above my pay grade LOL… The Assembly districting is more challenging. There are well over 100 seats and the lion’s share of them represent districts south of the Tappan Zee Bridge. Sure, antler restrictions will pass no problem, what anti would oppose less deer or young babies being killed??? But crossbows will increase deer kill. I have seen on you tube a couple videos of anti-hunters opposing crossbows when the state of New Jersey was legalizing them. I have not heard anybody suggest that the antis have weighed in on the crossbow issue in New York, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they did.

Edited June 28, 2013 by mike rossi

[jjb4900]

I would attribute it at least as much to a societal paradigm shift as I would to technology. We all hunt for different reasons and maintain a different level of ethics. Some of that is explained in hunter education manuals in the chapter about the different stages of hunters. I would not be surprised if natural resource agencies have adopted the marketing research tools used by business and can look at the hunting demographic data and predict social trends in hunting. Whether they do or do not, the attitudinal change in hunters is pretty obvious. Since this change has been occurring gradually for many years, it is not restricted to a trendy youth, but to the late baby boomers, which in addition to comprising of the bulk of hunters, are the ones involved in the political arena of hunting via the boards and clubs. Since there is no term limits on state senators and assembly members, many of these older hunters have a long association with members of the legislature, particularly with members of the Republican Party.

That old boy relationship with the republican party allows pro-hunting legislation to succeed in the state senate, where there are 63 seats of republicans, some critics accuse the senate districting of being Gerry-mandered, but that’s above my pay grade LOL… The Assembly districting is more challenging. There are well over 100 seats and the lion’s share of them represent districts south of the Tappan Zee Bridge. Sure, antler restrictions will pass no problem, what anti would oppose less deer or young babies being killed??? But crossbows will increase deer kill. I have seen on you tube a couple videos of anti-hunters opposing crossbows when the state of New Jersey was legalizing them. I have not heard anybody suggest that the antis have weighed in on the crossbow issue in New York, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they did.

I could be wrong, but I don't see the majority of hunters weighing in on any of the recent hunting legislation let alone the anti's.

[Doc]

I would attribute it at least as much to a societal paradigm shift as I would to technology. We all hunt for different reasons and maintain a different level of ethics. Some of that is explained in hunter education manuals in the chapter about the different stages of hunters. I would not be surprised if natural resource agencies have adopted the marketing research tools used by business and can look at the hunting demographic data and predict social trends in hunting. Whether they do or do not, the attitudinal change in hunters is pretty obvious. Since this change has been occurring gradually for many years, it is not restricted to a trendy youth, but to the late baby boomers, which in addition to comprising of the bulk of hunters, are the ones involved in the political arena of hunting via the boards and clubs. Since there is no term limits on state senators and assembly members, many of these older hunters have a long association with members of the legislature, particularly with members of the Republican Party.

That old boy relationship with the republican party allows pro-hunting legislation to succeed in the state senate, where there are 63 seats of republicans, some critics accuse the senate districting of being Gerry-mandered, but that’s above my pay grade LOL… The Assembly districting is more challenging. There are well over 100 seats and the lion’s share of them represent districts south of the Tappan Zee Bridge. Sure, antler restrictions will pass no problem, what anti would oppose less deer or young babies being killed??? But crossbows will increase deer kill. I have seen on you tube a couple videos of anti-hunters opposing crossbows when the state of New Jersey was legalizing them. I have not heard anybody suggest that the antis have weighed in on the crossbow issue in New York, but it wouldn’t surprise me if they did.

Huh???? Politics? .... Term Limits? .... Gery-mandering? ..... Republican party? ..... Demographic studies? Holy crap!!! that sure did cover some ground. Couldn't we get a little abortion and evil Soviet empire stirred in too ..... lol.

[jjb4900]

But, I have to admit there is a part of me that feels like everyone should be allowed to use their weapon of choice at some point to hunt deer. I was a backer of the youth hunt so I feel like a bit of a hypocrite to turn around and say that crossbows should not be allowed anywhere prior to regular deer season........maybe a week just prior to rifle? but then that opens up the old debate about Archers losing the prime week of the season....to allow them just during regular season or late muzzlelader / bow is almost pointless.

[mike rossi]

I could be wrong, but I don't see the majority of hunters weighing in on any of the recent hunting legislation let alone the anti's.

I want to answer this in two parts. First, the antis are watching all the hunting legislation and they certainly do weigh in. Second, I generally tend to agree with your other statement. If you watch any public hearing were hunting organizations testify, every organization begins the delivery of their case in very much the same way: Our organization has X members and through those members we represent X other clubs and organizations. Through our "resolution process" our stance on this issue represents X sportsman.... After doing what amounts to describing how big they are they then deliver the rest of their manifesto. I am not going to get into it about whether organizations represent the opinions of its member constituency, but I will say that many sportsmen go with the flow with little of their own evaluation. This facilitates politics very well, which pleases lawmakers, but sometimes the special interest wants & needs are not scientifically or ecologically sound. On social issues, it moves hunting in one direction or the other. Someone may not like that direction for personal reasons, but may also disagree because they are concerned  the big picture may be negatively effected.

 

I am not taking sides in the crossbow wars. But I have no problem with people speaking out and bucking the system. Many of us will be around longer than the political career of those elected to public office or hunting club office. Those who don't like the path our sport is going can become hunter education instructors and otherwise reach out to novice hunters, but only those who want your mentorship - don't try to cross dad, uncle, or an older brother....

Edited June 28, 2013 by mike rossi

[jjb4900]

I want to answer this in two parts. First, the antis are watching all the hunting legislation and they certainly do weigh in. Second, I generally tend to agree with your other statement. If you watch any public hearing were hunting organizations testify, every organization begins the delivery of their case in very much the same way: Our organization has X members and through those members we represent X other clubs and organizations. Through our "resolution process" our stance on this issue represents X sportsman.... After doing what amounts to describing how big they are they then deliver the rest of their manifesto. I am not going to get into it about whether organizations represent the opinions of its member constituency, but I will say that many sportsmen go with the flow with little of their own evaluation. This facilitates politics very well, which pleases lawmakers, but sometimes the special interest wants & needs are not scientifically or ecologically sound. On social issues, it moves hunting in one direction or the other. Someone may not like that direction for personal reasons, but may also disagree because they are concerned  the big picture may be negatively effected.

 

I am not taking sides in the crossbow wars. But I have no problem with people speaking out and bucking the system. Many of us will be around longer than the political career of those elected to public office or hunting club office. Those who don't like the path our sport is going can become hunter education instructors and otherwise reach out to novice hunters, but only those who want your mentorship - don't try to cross dad, uncle, or an older brother....

and to touch on your other point of assembly districts south of the Tappan Zee, the crossbow bill presented last year was backed by an Assemblyman from L.I.....

[ELMER J. FUDD]

One could argue that the bowhunters who oppose xbow during archery season have 2 choices. 1) Share the woods while xbow hunters hunt. Or 2) Share the woods while xbow hunters scout.

[jjb4900]

One could argue that the bowhunters who oppose xbow during archery season have 2 choices. 1) Share the woods while xbow hunters hunt. Or 2) Share the woods while xbow hunters scout.

I was under the impression that most crossbow advocates were already accomplished bowhunters who just wanted another weapon to hunt deer with, not just an easier weapon.........looks like you proved that theory wrong.

[ELMER J. FUDD]

We'd have to have a pretty detailed survey to prove anything with this crossbow debacle.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I was under the impression that most crossbow advocates were already accomplished bowhunters who just wanted another weapon to hunt deer with, not just an easier weapon.........looks like you proved that theory wrong.

 

I think you missed his point.

 

If crossbow hunters (ones that dont or cant hunt with vertical bows in the early bow season) are relegated to firearms season, they just may be out scouting while people are bow hunting. Even "accomplished" hunters need to scout, and I would not stop scouting a month and a half before the season starts.

[mike rossi]

I think you missed his point.

 

If crossbow hunters (ones that dont or cant hunt with vertical bows in the early bow season) are relegated to firearms season, they just may be out scouting while people are bow hunting. Even "accomplished" hunters need to scout, and I would not stop scouting a month and a half before the season starts.

I think he is calling  the change of pace argument. Sounds like he is arguing that If someone wants to switch up during archery season, why don't they want to switch up during firearm season?

[mike rossi]

Here are some Crossbow surveys by Responsive Management / Mark Duda. Other entities which do social studies about hunting are: The US Census Bureau; Cornel University Division of Human Dimensions within the natural resource department; and possibly other firms such as Rueters or Zogby International of Utica, NY.

FYI: I don’t know what everybody else has read, but the most common reason I see for hunters giving up the sport is the behavior of other hunters. True, reasons such as access, urbanization, and all the commonly cited reasons are listed, but the most reoccurring is the behavior of other hunters. Personally, I don’t find that far-fetched.

About 14 results (0.19 seconds) 

Search Results

1. [PDF]

Bowhunting Participation, Trends, Satisfactions And Marketing

www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/AMOdist.pdf‎

• Cached

Cited by 1 - Related articles

between crossbow and other types of bowhunting and within the various types of ..... Recurve bows, longbows, and crossbows are used by fewer bowhunters.

1. [PDF]

Download - Responsive Management

www.responsivemanagement.com/download/.../Bowhuntingpaper-uga.p...‎

• Cached

by MD Duda - 2001 - Cited by 1 - Related articles

between crossbow and other types of bowhunting and within the various types of ..... Recurve bows, longbows, and crossbows are also part of the equation, but.

1. [PDF]

Volume 1 - Maryland Department of Natural Resources

www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/MD_Deer_Report.pdf

The survey asked deer hunters about the length of the crossbow season: most ... Deer hunters are split, with slightly more agreement, on whether crossbows ...

1. [PDF]

Download - Responsive Management

www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/amo.pdf‎

• Cached

recurve bow, compound bow, and crossbow equip- ment. There are some ..... Recurve bows, longbows, and crossbows are also part of the equation, but the ...

1. [PDF]

NEW HAMPSHIRE LAPSED HUNTER Report - Responsive ...

www.responsivemanagement.com/.../NH_Lapsed_Hunter_Report.pdf‎

• Cached

hunting involved crossbow hunting (more opportunities for crossbow hunting and ... education about crossbows) or waterfowl (more opportunities to hunt ducks ...

1. [PDF]

Download - Responsive Management

www.responsivemanagement.com/download/.../PAGameCommHuntervol1....

modern firearms. Q171. More opportunities existed to hunt w/ crossbow ...... Crossbows should be allowed during archery season, and regarding muzzleloaders, ...

1. [PDF]

harvest of wildlife in georgia 2005-2006 - Responsive Management

www.responsivemanagement.com/.../GA_Harvest_Wildlife_Report.pdf‎

• Cached

handicap permit before crossbows were made legal. 13,957. 85.6. Crossbow hunters who used archery equipment in a previous season before hunting with ...

1. [PDF]

georgia wildlife harvest survey 2004-2005 - Responsive Management

www.responsivemanagement.com/download/.../GA_Wildlife_Harvest.pd...‎

• Cached

0.40. 0.02. Most crossbow hunters were new to crossbow hunting, as only 10.1% had hunted previously ... handicap permit before crossbows were made legal.

1. [PDF]

Download - Responsive Management

www.responsivemanagement.com/download/.../WV_Wildlife_Report.pd...‎

• Cached

Bow and arrow. Shotgun. Muzzleloader. Pistol or handgun. Other. Crossbow. M u ...... I'd like to see more youth days for hunting, and I am opposed to crossbows ...

1. [PDF]

deer management and deer hunting in indiana - Responsive ...

www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/IN_Deer_Report.pdf

and crossbow (5%). ...... Rifle. Handgun. Crossbow. Multiple Respons es Allowed. Percent (n=8,591) ...... allowed in Indiana, such as crossbows or centerfire.

 

 

We'd have to have a pretty detailed survey to prove anything with this crossbow debacle.

 

 

[mike rossi]

For those who don't know, you can easily search those long PDF files for sections about crossbows, antler restrictions, or anything else. There is a search box, just type in crossbow, press next or enter and it will bring you to that topic and it will be highlighted. Every time you hit the next arrow it will bring you to the next section in the document where the subject you are interested is discussed. Very easy and even if the PDF is 400 pages, you can easily and quickly navigate to only the sections you are interested in.

[jjb4900]

One could argue that the bowhunters who oppose xbow during archery season have 2 choices. 1) Share the woods while xbow hunters hunt. Or 2) Share the woods while xbow hunters scout.

They're more then welcome to scout..........during archery season, I also hunt turkey, grouse, squirrel and anything else that may be open and I think it hardly has an impact on anyone's deer season............I also intend to partake in the youth season with my son.

[Doc]

I think you missed his point.

 

If crossbow hunters (ones that dont or cant hunt with vertical bows in the early bow season) are relegated to firearms season, they just may be out scouting while people are bow hunting. Even "accomplished" hunters need to scout, and I would not stop scouting a month and a half before the season starts.

Ha-ha .... welcome aboard. They are all welcome to join the small game hunters, turkey hunters and hikers and bikers and all the other people that are already out there. If people want to add scouting for gun season to the gang, it probably won't be any different than it is now. Those hunters that want to scout, already are. I don't see where it would be any different. Frankly, I suspect that many of the small game hunters are out there just to see what the deer herd looks like and where some good places to stand on opening day might be. It's nothing new and likely won't add any significant activity that isn't already there.

[Five Seasons]

I was under the impression that most crossbow advocates were already accomplished bowhunters who just wanted another weapon to hunt deer with, not just an easier weapon.........looks like you proved that theory wrong.

 

haha. exactly.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Ha-ha .... welcome aboard. They are all welcome to join the small game hunters, turkey hunters and hikers and bikers and all the other people that are already out there. If people want to add scouting for gun season to the gang, it probably won't be any different than it is now. Those hunters that want to scout, already are. I don't see where it would be any different. Frankly, I suspect that many of the small game hunters are out there just to see what the deer herd looks like and where some good places to stand on opening day might be. It's nothing new and likely won't add any significant activity that isn't already there.

I never said I necessarily agreed with the statement. Although, i do see the point. Id rather hunt around others that are hunting, rather than those that are walking around scouting. Then again, the guys scouting could bump something by my stand. Theres an up side and a down side to every opinion on the subject. Some just refuse to see the side they dont agree with.

[Doc]

I never said I necessarily agreed with the statement. Although, i do see the point. Id rather hunt around others that are hunting, rather than those that are walking around scouting. Then again, the guys scouting could bump something by my stand. Theres an up side and a down side to every opinion on the subject. Some just refuse to see the side they dont agree with.

I know that on occasion, others in the woods do push deer to me. I don't really like to dwell on that thought because the one thing that I prize most about bowhunting is the fact that the results are usually completely about my own efforts, abilities, activities. That's the one thing that separates bowhunting from gunhunting. It's not a very pleasing or fulfilling thought that some hiker may have driven a deer away from its natural patterns and it blundered into me. Too much luck in that little piece of success and not a whole lot of personal skill. However, the woods is open to all kinds of activities in that early season, and there are a lot of different people busting up patterns and the best laid plans. It's just a fact of life these days. It really makes no difference if a few more people are wandering aimlessly around whether they be crossbow hunters or people scouting for the upcoming gun season. I really have no preferences.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Well at least youre admitting that you are deluding yourself a bit sometimes lol. I just look at it realistically. Some of the places where I hang stands are escape routes. Dont get me wrong, I looooove knowing I outsmarted a deer, but I also realize they are not 100% predictable, and theres always a bit of luck involved.

[Doc]

Well at least youre admitting that you are deluding yourself a bit sometimes lol. I just look at it realistically. Some of the places where I hang stands are escape routes. Dont get me wrong, I looooove knowing I outsmarted a deer, but I also realize they are not 100% predictable, and theres always a bit of luck involved.

My bowhunting does not rely on escape routes and luck plays as little a role in my bowhunting as I can arrange. I save all that for gun season. I am not at all interested in accidental bow deer harvests. In bow season, I do try to get away from that sort of thing and I do work deer patterns, and for the most part am quite successful in finding areas where others don't or won't go. Even in intensely hunted areas, there are often places that are uncomfortable for others to hunt. If you know your hunting area, you can find these spots. I won't say that it is flawless, but you can arrange things so that the accidental bow harvests are the exception rather than the rule, even on public land.

 

But back to my original point, if there are a few people that decide to do some scouting (whether they are crossbowers, gunners or even other bowhunters), they are more than welcome to do so. They will simply join the others (hikers, bikers, bird watchers, whatever) who are wandering around in the traditional spots that people wander around in. Most of the time, I won't even know because I won't be there. It's a shame that such a large part of hunting considerations have to be in avoiding others, but what the heck, it is simply a sign of the times. And if you are going to hunt public land, that is becoming all part of the game.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yep, it is what it is.