Which Rifle?

[Fehyd643]

Hey all

 

New to hunting but familiar with firearms to a point.

 

Here's my question:  I have 2 rifles that I own, and I am not sure which caliber is better for deer hunting.  Accuracy and range is really no problem for either, as I wont be shooting beyond 150-200 yds due to terrain.

 

#1 Stag Arms AR-15, 5.56/.223  Red dot, accurate within a few inches at 150-200 yds

#2 Remington 700, .308 Leopold 14x40, keyholes at 150/200

 

My main question is if the 223 is too small, and the 308 too big?  I'd prefer the Stag, simply because it is a lot lighter, but I just don't know if a .223 will fill the bill.

 

I also have a Mossberg 500c (20ga) but I am very new to shotguns and really don't have a lot of faith in myself as far as bullet drop/accuracy when changing distances. I don't have enough range time with it to be comfortable yet.  I have hundreds of hours behind my rifles, and have 100% confidence in them.

 

So which is better for a higher percentage clean kill-shot without overdoing it?

 

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

 

Joshua

[WNYBuckHunter]

They are both fine. A 223 just needs to be used within its limitations. Hit a deer in the right spot, and its going to die. The 308 would be my personal preference of the two. That being said, I have a 223 that I may take out for a hunt or two this year, now that rifles are legal in my area.

[cdmckane]

Personally, I'd use the .308.  I know guys who use .223 on deer but, for me, it's just too small.  .243 is the ABSOLUTE minimum I'll use on deer, and even then, I don't like it.  My deer rifle is a Rem 700 in .30-06.

 

Use a good, expanding bullet that your rifle fires well.  It's a little close to gun season to be figuring that out.  Whenever I get a new rifle, I buy a box of Hornady American Whitetail, Remington Core-Lokt, and Federal to see which I can get better groups with, then that's all I fire through that weapon. 

 

Does your Mossberg have a rifled barrel?  If so, modern sabots are really just rifle bullets fired out of shotguns.  I'm shooting Hornady SST slugs out of my Savage 220F bolt action SG and have no problem shooting MOA at 200 yds. 

[Fehyd643]

They are both fine. A 223 just needs to be used within its limitations. Hit a deer in the right spot, and its going to die. The 308 would be my personal preference of the two. That being said, I have a 223 that I may take out for a hunt or two this year, now that rifles are legal in my area.

 

I totally agree about limitations! I'd probably stick to 100-150 yds with the AR.  I know I can go out further, but I prefer keeping my chance of a definite kill-shot above 95% Stacking shots at 200 is great... on a bench.

 

Thanks for the input!  Quick follow up Q: Would I target the shoulder with the .223 or the same kill zone as with a bow?  I know it's a dumb question, but I'm still a noob!

 

Joshua

[WNYBuckHunter]

I dont think Id take a shoulder shot with the 223, Id stick to heart/lung area.

[cdmckane]

I'd target the vitals, same as any weapon.  They'll die faster with a hole in their heart and lungs than they will with a busted shoulder.

[Fehyd643]

Personally, I'd use the .308.  I know guys who use .223 on deer but, for me, it's just too small.  .243 is the ABSOLUTE minimum I'll use on deer, and even then, I don't like it.  My deer rifle is a Rem 700 in .30-06.

 

Use a good, expanding bullet that your rifle fires well.  It's a little close to gun season to be figuring that out.  Whenever I get a new rifle, I buy a box of Hornady American Whitetail, Remington Core-Lokt, and Federal to see which I can get better groups with, then that's all I fire through that weapon. 

 

Does your Mossberg have a rifled barrel?  If so, modern sabots are really just rifle bullets fired out of shotguns.  I'm shooting Hornady SST slugs out of my Savage 220F bolt action SG and have no problem shooting MOA at 200 yds. 

 

I have a bit of range time before I head out for gun season, and was planning on zero'ing with whatever ammo I hunt with then.  The 700's eat pretty much anything I gave it pretty clean, so I'm not expecting to have to make any major adjustments. I've been using mostly .308 Win Remington 150 Grain to shoot, but havent researched the requirements yet for deer.

 

My mossberg does not have a rifled barrel (yet). I just dont have the mechanics down on it yet to feel comfortable with just the bead at beyond 50 yds, and I havent tapped in a rail or mount for a scope.

 

Thanks for the advice!

[WNYBuckHunter]

I'd target the vitals, same as any weapon.  They'll die faster with a hole in their heart and lungs than they will with a busted shoulder.

 

I target the shoulders with a larger caliber. Delivers all of the energy and anchors them. Remember, you can end up slipping a bullet between ribs and through the lungs, and not get a ton of energy transfer. Youre in for a long track job.

[Steve7]

I just prefer the heavier 30 caliber range whether it's 30.06 or .308 IMO.  I use a 30.06 for deer.

[toddyrotten]

Id go with the 308. There's no replacement for cubic displacement.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

If I had only those three guns to choose from I would pick the 308. Then the 20 then the 223. With the 308 a quartering to shot will break the shoulder and still have plenty of energy when it gets to the vitals.

[cdmckane]

I target the shoulders with a larger caliber. Delivers all of the energy and anchors them. Remember, you can end up slipping a bullet between ribs and through the lungs, and not get a ton of energy transfer. Youre in for a long track job.

But it ruins a LOT of good shoulder roast.  I've only ever lost one deer that I know I shot in the vitals with my -06, and it was because I tracked it too quickly.  First deer, first buck, first 8-pt, I got excited and tracked right after the shot.  Other than that one, I've never had to track more than 100 yards to get a vital-shot deer with my rifle, since I've learned to wait to track.

[shawnhu]

I'd plan on using the .223 in close ranges up to 100 yards, and not beyond. Also choice of ammo is important here, as you'll want a round that will unload most of its energy inside the animal rather than outside. I'd probably aim for the heart/lungs rather than shoulder with the .223 and stage in a field where you can allow the deer to run a ways and still be able to track and recover. If the gun was shooting sub-MOA, and you can do your part under pressure, I'd advise for a headshot, but you'll hear a lot of folks are against those shots here.

The Rem 700 does sound like a better shooter, and .308 isn't overkill, especially 150-200+ yards away. A shoulder shot would definitely put the deer in its tracks.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

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[Fehyd643]

I'd plan on using the .223 in close ranges up to 100 yards, and not beyond. Also choice of ammo is important here, as you'll want a round that will unload most of its energy inside the animal rather than outside. I'd probably aim for the heart/lungs rather than shoulder with the .223 and stage in a field where you can allow the deer to run a ways and still be able to track and recover. If the gun was shooting sub-MOA, and you can do your part under pressure, I'd advise for a headshot, but you'll hear a lot of folks are against those shots here.

The Rem 700 does sound like a better shooter, and .308 isn't overkill, especially 150-200+ yards away. A shoulder shot would definitely put the deer in its tracks.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

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The Stag and I can shoot around 1MOA from a bench.  Unsupported, I'd call myself a 2-3MOA shooter with a 1MOA gun.  lol

 

The 700 is definitely a sub MOA.

 

I don't think I would be comfortable with a head shot.  My goal is to give myself the highest possible kill-chance. There are just too many variables involved compared to a vital or shoulder shot. 

 

Thanks for the input!

 

Joshua

[Elmo]

I'd go with the .308 especially since you're new to hunting.

 

If you've never killed anything before then range time means nothing.  It's one thing to shoot paper targets while sitting comfortably on a bench.  It's another entirely different thing to shoot while you're cold and freezing the last 4 hours, your butt is sore from all the sitting, deer shows up, your heart starts pounding, legs get weak, your hands start to shake, 20 million thoughts start running through your head, you're leaning forward and shooting down because the deer is down at a ravine, etc.  Then talk to me about sub-MOAs at 200 yards.  I'd say get a few notches under your belt before you should feel confident with the .223.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Elmo

[bushnell]

If they were my choices I would go with the .308. I would feel a lot more confident with the .308 if that deer was standing at 200 yards compared to the .223.

[Fehyd643]

Elmo;

 

Thanks for the input.  I know it will sound like empty bragging and such, but I'm not worried about conditions and my reaction so much.  I shot my very first deer with a bow a couple weeks ago, and remained pretty steady. Being military, I fully understand that bench shooting and real world scenarios are totally and completely different!  All my bench work has been mostly for muscle memory and basic technique.

 

As I stated in my previous post, I know that I am a much worse shooter than my rifles are capable of, but I have done OK in the past in pressure situations.  Sub MOA on a bench is 2-3MOA in real world for me. I know I'm not really that good.  

 

More importantly, I completely agree with you and pretty much everyone else that has responded.  I think I will be going with the 308.  It seems that it will just give me a higher percentage chance to put food on the table!  Thanks for your advice!

[BUCKANDAQUARTER]

My preference would absolutely be the .308. i have killed about 10 deer with mine and the furthest they have gone is 10 ft. I use 150 corelocks. i have used superx's but after 4 misfires i one box i will never use them again

[Pygmy]

It's as simple as this...The .223 is capable of making clean kills on deer with proper shot placement and bullet choice...

 

However , you may not always be offered ideal shots , such as nice broadside shots..  It is not an ideal chambering for shots that require a lot of penetration, such as ranging shots, or shots that contact heavy bone.

 

The ,223 excells as a varmint cartridge, but can be very effective on deer under the right conditions..

 

The .308, however, is ideal for deer sized game and will also do a good job on larger game such as moose and elk with proper bullets...

 

It is NOT overkill for deer, but will make clean kills from any practical shot angle...

 

If I had a rifle in each chambering that I felt confident with, accuracy wise, I would take the .308 for deer every time.

 

Given equal accuracy, I can see NO advantage for the .223 over the .308 as a deer cartridge, and I see  definite advantages of the .308 over the .223.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Pygmy

[shawnhu]

Given equal accuracy, I can see NO advantage for the .223 over the .308 as a deer cartridge, and I see definite advantages of the .308 over the .223.

I believe he stated an obvious one, weight.

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[pawle76]

I'd plan on using the .223 in close ranges up to 100 yards, and not beyond. Also choice of ammo is important here, as you'll want a round that will unload most of its energy inside the animal rather than outside. I'd probably aim for the heart/lungs rather than shoulder with the .223 and stage in a field where you can allow the deer to run a ways and still be able to track and recover. If the gun was shooting sub-MOA, and you can do your part under pressure, I'd advise for a headshot, but you'll hear a lot of folks are against those shots here.

The Rem 700 does sound like a better shooter, and .308 isn't overkill, especially 150-200+ yards away. A shoulder shot would definitely put the deer in its tracks.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

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Yeah we love head shots because leaving animals to die by starvation from a blown off jaw bone is so ethical.

[stop em and drop em]

308 over 223, leave nothing to chance

[cdmckane]

I believe he stated an obvious one, weight.

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Yup.  The .308 holds that advantage all day long.  More weight equals more energy delivered into the target.

[shawnhu]

Yup. The .308 holds that advantage all day long. More weight equals more energy delivered into the target.

Maybe you misunderstood me. The AR-15 in .233 the OP has is lighter weight than his Rem 700 in .308, which is his preferred. That right there, is an desirable advantage for the OP.

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[shawnhu]

Yeah we love head shots because leaving animals to die by starvation from a blown off jaw bone is so ethical.

Tell us how you really feel. Just because you can't do it don't mean others can't. Typical hater. You're one of those that also advises against 50 yard shots from a bow right?

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