The direction of deer hunting

[growalot]

 

Nothing you can do about it, except preserve your capabilities to hunt in the manner you want or for your friend/family/future family lineage. It's not pretty, but it is what it is, and the sooner people realize it, and stop worrying about the "whole" of the hunting community, the better off they'll be. Or, you get out of the sport.

in a nut shell... though as a hunting community ...we need to make sure that public land isn't depleted.due to non hunter influences or state  gov. greed

[EagleCrag]

     In some ways, I am fortunate that I cut my hunting teeth in the Adirondacks where there is plenty of state land.  I share the disdain with most folks here regarding the "hunting" shows on TV.  Most years I get one opportunity per season to shoot a buck and I either make good on it or not.  Some years I may get a second opportunity and some years none.  I'm amused when I watch hunting programs that show a new kid whose mentor, drives them in a 4 wheeler to a "stand" that is nearly as nice as many hunting camps I've seen and then gets to look over (in one sitting) more deer than I see in a season to decide which buck they wish to take.  That kid doesn't have the foggiest idea about what hunting is like IMO.  What woodsmanship was required of them?  None.  They didn't even get to walk in the woods.

     I believe that the current trends in deer hunting de emphasize the need for woodsmanship in hunting as well as the hunting camp traditions that many of us knew.  I agree that hunting is more and more becoming a sport for the affluent.  On the positive side, I think current trends encourage hunters to let smaller deer pass, which is a good thing in my mind.  Our attitudes, for the most part, are a result of the experiences we have had in hunting.  In my case, I see a definite distinction between a deer taken in the "big woods" versus one taken in farm country and one taken on land where crops are planted specifically for deer.  Undoubtedly this is because of my life's experiences.  I bear no grudge against those who do plant food plots and manage land specifically for wildlife and don't expect them to share my views.  I suspect many of them would give up hunting if they hunted where I do, simply because they wouldn't see enough deer to keep their interest up.  I consider myself fortunate that I have been able to hunt the same area for over 40 years and should be able to do so until I can no longer walk in the woods.  

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I dont agree with the deer farm high fence theory. You may see some guys do it, but it will not become the norm. I think you will see the general public lash back at it once it gets to a certain point. It will always be a niche market.

 

What I do agree with is the leasing issue. Finding good land to hunt is not easy, and keeping it is even harder. I spend alot of time maintaining the relationships with the landowner, farm manager, hunting buddies, etc in order to have access to the land that I hunt. Im not saying thats a bad thing, because I really enjoy spending time with them, but the days of gaining simple permission without the outlay of cash, time, etc are long gone. For me, its ok, but not everyone can afford the time or money to have access to land for an activity they participate in a few weekends a year.

LOL. Of course you dont have the info i have but i will promise you that high fence is not going backwards any time soon in any state.

 More and more wire goes up every year and the general public has no say as to what a person does on private property. They already tried to hunt that dog years ago in court and lost. Product and demand. call any place in Ny state and see if you could find a hunt on any ranch. Wont happen!

You make the statement..the days of gaining simple permission without the outlay of cash,time,ect..answers your question of where many will hunt in the future!  more than they already do today.

 It also wont just be trying to find land to hunt. even high dollars will only get you a spot on land with many others that also have the money to hunt on that land with you..A club per say..so you will still have to pay and you are still at the mercy of how those other hunters act themselves. Look at the 4000 acre boys hunting club there already is in NY state..under fence! There are many like theirs just not that big.

Things are a changing, thats for sure!

[WNYBuckHunter]

Sorry FSW, I dont agree with it. You can put all of the industry rhetoric you want out there, but I dont buy it. I do not personally know anyone that does high fence hunts, but I do know many that would quit hunting before they laid out thousands of dollars to hunt behind a fence. I also know many non hunters that think shooting animals behind a fence is disgusting, and they dont care what size the fenced area is.

[SteveB]

You don't "hunt" behind a fence in NY.

You go kill livestock.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Sorry FSW, I dont agree with it. You can put all of the industry rhetoric you want out there, but I dont buy it. I do not personally know anyone that does high fence hunts, but I do know many that would quit hunting before they laid out thousands of dollars to hunt behind a fence. I also know many non hunters that think shooting animals behind a fence is disgusting, and they dont care what size the fenced area is.

Hey i have no problem with that way of thinking. To each their own i say. You.i.we are a very,very,very small fish in the big ocean of deer hunting and high fence. Get bored someday, do some research, I know you are smart enough to see what the future brings for most hunters. You are right on two points. They will adapt or they will get out. Sad really.

 You have to be on both sides of the fence to really have a good view of both sides.  I will say i know in my general area and on my 700 acres. The view is not good.

[d-bone20917]

You don't "hunt" behind a fence in NY.

You go kill livestock.

 

Exactly.  I will add that this applies to any state. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Hey i have no problem with that way of thinking. To each their own i say. You.i.we are a very,very,very small fish in the big ocean of deer hunting and high fence. Get bored someday, do some research, I know you are smart enough to see what the future brings for most hunters. You are right on two points. They will adapt or they will get out. Sad really.

 You have to be on both sides of the fence to really have a good view of both sides.  I will say i know in my general area and on my 700 acres. The view is not good.

 

Ive done research, I see both sides, and I understand why you have the opinion that you do. Youve bought into the industry, why wouldnt you have the view that the business you are in is the end all be all? I also see organizations that are taking stances against parts of the high fence industry growing at a pretty rapid pace. Do I think that deer farms and high fence shooting will go away? No. But I dont think its going to become the norm either.

[moog5050]

Having only 2 seasons under my belt, please stop with the doom and gloom.  I am having too much fun to think that hunting will evaporate any time soon.  One of the reasons I bought 40 acres after season 1.  It will be my little slice of the pie no matter what else happens.  Hopefully the deer won't be leaving for good.  I am OK with not shooting a wall mounter every year.  The chase is more than enough fun - but it was sure nice to kill a decent buck too.

[Arrow Flinger]

I can see, in the future, land in the Finger Lakes Region and Western NY being all leased up by clubs and outfitters. Look at Illinois and Ohio for example. Its nearly impossible to get permission to hunt private land in those and many other "Big Buck" states because its all leased up by outfitters and hunting clubs. Where is the next outfitter surge gonna be? Wouldn't surprise me if its here in NY. Look at some of the whopper bucks taken in Regions 8 & 9 the past few years. You cant tell me that these guys cant come here and lease a ton of land to "grow" a herd of monster bucks.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Ive done research, I see both sides, and I understand why you have the opinion that you do. Youve bought into the industry, why wouldnt you have the view that the business you are in is the end all be all? I also see organizations that are taking stances against parts of the high fence industry growing at a pretty rapid pace. Do I think that deer farms and high fence shooting will go away? No. But I dont think its going to become the norm either.

15 years is a long time to watch something grow, and grown it has. There will only be one end all be all and that will be no hunting at all. Let me ask. how much more land was made compared to how many more people were put on? We say we need to get more hunters in the sport!   To put them where????? On land already over run by orange with no deer in sight!!  I have been on both sides a long time. There are no new orgs that have not been there forever. There is only one in the battle that does not have all hunting stopped in their sights. 

 The guestion was..The Direction. Well there will only be a couple choices! 

[bubba]

it is not only the land issue.  All the newest high tech gimmicks that people spend a ton on every year.What happened to toe old days of hunting in  pair of jeans and jacket?  I love how people sped big money on cam then cover it all with orange. And everyone needs the most expensive stand and trail cam there is to be successful.  I love looking at trail cam pics and you read this one is old crooked horn or what ever. When did we start naming them?  All I can think of is the canned hunts on tv. A lot are Michael Waddell wannabe's  And you need a range finder to know exactly how far the deer is away so you know exactly which pin to use on your bow sight or which dot to use in your scope.  . I remember numbers that went with a deer was weight and number fo points on the antlers, not number of inches of "bone."  No one seems satisfied any longer with what there is for hunting. and what is available.  It is all about morphing the herd into super deer.  I prefer the older slower styles of hunting.  My bow has no sights, my arrows are aluminum and my scope has one set of cross hairs in the reticle andmy muzzleloader is a sidelock with a peep sight.  It is almost like as the attempts are made to make super deer. the hunter thinks he needs super equipment to kill one.  And if you do not get with the times, you are ridiculed and dismissed as not knowing anything about how real hunting is.    

[Arrow Flinger]

Interesting...Well many years ago looked toward the future....and didn't like what I saw...down at camp huge pieces of land were being bought up and hunting clubs with truck load after truck load of guys were coming in...and if you were unfortunate enough to have a deer take a death run over the line...permission to recover was denied...They aren't done yet for we have been approached and they are dogging the home owner we share our drive with...even though she has just 12 acres  They have hundreds and hundreds of acres now...That doesn't make all hunting clubs jerks just....ppl that looked to the future for themselves and families..and probably just as tired of some non land owning ppl..Ones that feel they are entitled to use others properties when the owners aren't there..

 

The open fields I use to watch for deer on the way to camp started filling up with houses and businesses....... So I opted to leave a Better homes and garden place we custom rebuilt and dumped lots of cash into...to buy a small reverted hunting camp on 91/2 acres...but it was in prime hunting and had lots of farm land around it...Then went to work...not on the house...but the future and laid the foundation to start buying around us...so our kids would have a place to hunt when they got older ...we now have 73 acres ..4 different parcels that conjoin ...Doesn't make me an elitist...just smart.....but angered a lot of ppl for...  "We hunted that land all our lives" attitudes arose with lots of trespassing and property damage and theft... Hey they had the same chance I did if not more to buy it..But took the future for granted....PS... theft /trespassing nothing new and I remember some nasty attitudes when I first started talking about it a few years ago here and have watched it spread..this year was a doosie for some of ya...

 

 Now I harvest animals off my lands,,,why because it is easier to get use to saying harvest instead of kill around non hunters....just like it's easier to cover or tuck away  a deer I took at camp for the ride home...doesn't make them less dead or farm raised.....just to not offend and fuel ppls negative view of hunters...Which is why I can go into a woman's clinic or Drs office or even a long check out line in say Sams club and strike up a conversation about hunting and get non hunters engaged and interested in what I say...even  to become surprised at how many admit to being hunters as well....

 

I manage my land...I do so for all the wild life...for the shear enjoyment of planting things(went to school for recreational land management)..experimenting...and physical activity...do we get big bucks growing in the area and traveling through our place...yeppers.... are the deer getting bigger and healthier ...sure enough! and my neighbors enjoyed killing them this year...See I have no illusions that these deer..... that enjoy good food and habitat on us.... don't walk around our hill and off our place into other hunted properties..for EVERYONE hunts here...Or that those big boysand older doe aren't smart enough to know when it is or isn't safe to roam..or the best places are to hide...it's how they got to be big boys/girls...not tame....Doesn't mean we don't enjoy the woods and land we have.....we're on it every day..raised two 4-H kids on it....they rode ATV...trained for dirt bike racing...built forts... raised live stock...ect ect...So Kudos to all the ppl out there that looked to the future...saved...went with out...used their vacation funds on making their own vacation/hunting spot be it 10 or 1000 acres...so they and their family and friends can enjoy a future of hunting and land management...for they aren't making more land...unless you live in the pacific Islands

 

Theres a big difference between what you do and what is on TV. You don't control enough property to manipulate the deer herd as to what deer are shot and which ones are not. The deer you hunt are still "wild" because they get harassed by people/hunters when they leave your property. The ones on TV don't ever have a bad experience with people until they are fully mature which makes them almost tame. They are not afraid of people because they have no reason to be. I see nothing wrong with what you do. ....except harvest

[moog5050]

Serious question Bubba.  I understand your point about the latest and greatest equipment but when you bought that bow, scope and MZ, were they the latest and greatest at the time?  Just curious if you had the same thoughts then or only now after equipment has changed and you have stayed with your traditional equipment.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I can see, in the future, land in the Finger Lakes Region and Western NY being all leased up by clubs and outfitters. Look at Illinois and Ohio for example. Its nearly impossible to get permission to hunt private land in those and many other "Big Buck" states because its all leased up by outfitters and hunting clubs. Where is the next outfitter surge gonna be? Wouldn't surprise me if its here in NY. Look at some of the whopper bucks taken in Regions 8 & 9 the past few years. You cant tell me that these guys cant come here and lease a ton of land to "grow" a herd of monster bucks.

Bingo!!! Just what those in charge want. MONEY!  Just wait till AR starts showing up outside the Letchworth Park area.  Its already being leased and not by out of state people. We have been approached on our farm outside the park a number of times. Some of you younger hunters really need to see the big picture. For many of us 50yrs and up on here have seen the change and i myself dont see any positive changes coming. The states have one thing in mind when it comes to hunting! Money!  landowners and farms that dont hunt or hunt much are seeing how much some are willing to fork out for 3 months of land use. I will also say except a couple areas north of Syracuse wont have to worry about any rush of hunters coming your way. Well, Not for deer anyway!

[Arrow Flinger]

Serious question Bubba.  I understand your point about the latest and greatest equipment but when you bought that bow, scope and MZ, were they the latest and greatest at the time?  Just curious if you had the same thoughts then or only now after equipment has changed and you have stayed with your traditional equipment.

 

Exactly! If you need a new bow today, you're not gonna go out and get a 20 year old relic, you're gonna try to buy as new as you can afford which would then put you in the category of having the latest and greatest in some peoples eyes. I don't have as much of a problem with new equipment( although some of it is over the top) my main problem is with the way these guys raise and "harvest" deer like they are livestock and the land being all leased up in the future.

[bubba]

Serious question Bubba.  I understand your point about the latest and greatest equipment but when you bought that bow, scope and MZ, were they the latest and greatest at the time?  Just curious if you had the same thoughts then or only now after equipment has changed and you have stayed with your traditional equipment.

 

 

Geesh you make me sound ancient.  I bought my new recurve 4 years ago so I would say no. I have bought different muzzleloaders over the years so again I would say no.  I just purchased a new flint lock to hunt with next year and my scope for my rifle I bought I think 3 years ago.  You are making my entire point.  everyone sees the fools on tv with their free encores and need an encore. The huintign shows are not about hunting, they are about pushing products.  I had an encore and sold it after one year because I could out shoot it with my sidelock..  I do have an H&R inline Ml that I had the barrel fitted to my 25-06 frame.  I sometimes use it during regular season.  I bought a bolt action savage axis last fall and it sat in the cabinet in leiu of the muzzleloader and single shot rifle.  

[growalot]

 

Look at some of the whopper bucks taken in Regions 8 & 9 the past few years. You cant tell me that these guys cant come here and lease a ton of land to "grow" a herd of monster bucks.

I live in and hunt both ends of region 8..8N and 8X...there are already a lot of leased and as mention private owned hunting "clubs"...Let them "grow" their herds of monster bucks...by the way a monster buck is only as big as the minerals in soil and plants available in their diets...only as big as the time they are allowed to mature...and again free ranging...... I do not know any where around 8N or 8X where ppl can lease and or buy several miles of contiguous land...so as to manage their own private monsters. Deer move and in rut bucks can move great distances.....Again high fenced deer lands have to be DEC approved or wild deer removed..

 

Well you sit in a waiting room of half naked ..usually business woman (reference Wendy breast clinic)...decide to approach a delicate subject in hopes to maintain an intelligent conversation involving hunting...and see how killed  vs harvested works out for you...it's semantics

Difference in ppl orbiting my world as a hunter and yours....

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I live in and hunt both ends of region 8..8N and 8X...there are already a lot of leased and as mention private owned hunting "clubs"...Let them "grow" their herds of monster bucks...by the way a monster buck is only as big as the minerals in soil and plants available in their diets...only as big as the time they are allowed to mature...and again free ranging...... I do not know any where around 8N or 8X where ppl can lease and or buy several miles of contiguous land...so as to manage their own private monsters. Deer move and in rut bucks can move great distances.....Again high fenced deer lands have to be DEC approved or wild deer removed..

 

Well you sit in a waiting room of half naked ..usually business woman (reference Wendy breast clinic)...decide to approach a delicate subject in hopes to maintain an intelligent conversation involving hunting...and see how killed  vs harvested works out for you...it's semantics

Difference in ppl orbiting my world as a hunter and yours....

Agreed but it does not matter to the everyday hunter if its leased or not. Big Bucks= Big $.  The farmer or private land owner with locked down land is just like leased property! You are not getting on it!!!

[growalot]

The farmer or private land owner with locked down land is just like leased property! You are not getting on it!!!

 

 

Now I think that is the crutch of what is really bothering some...not that ppl aren't hunting wild free range deer...but the idea that some how they are seeing or getting a crack at more or bigger deer than those that hunt on state run lands..

 

State lands that private land owners paying taxes for their private excess or leasees paying what amounts to the leasors taxes...plus income taxes or licenses fees for lands run by the state for non land owning hunters.......

[Arrow Flinger]

I live in and hunt both ends of region 8..8N and 8X...there are already a lot of leased and as mention private owned hunting "clubs"...Let them "grow" their herds of monster bucks...by the way a monster buck is only as big as the minerals in soil and plants available in their diets...only as big as the time they are allowed to mature...and again free ranging...... I do not know any where around 8N or 8X where ppl can lease and or buy several miles of contiguous land...so as to manage their own private monsters. Deer move and in rut bucks can move great distances.....Again high fenced deer lands have to be DEC approved or wild deer removed..

 

Well you sit in a waiting room of half naked ..usually business woman (reference Wendy breast clinic)...decide to approach a delicate subject in hopes to maintain an intelligent conversation involving hunting...and see how killed  vs harvested works out for you...it's semantics

Difference in ppl orbiting my world as a hunter and yours....

 

Do you really believe that? One square mile is 640 acres. You don't think in the future someone could lease a couple thousand acres up and control the deer herd? If they have a lot of does on that much property the bucks wont have to leave it during the rut. Sure, the occaisional buck might wander off and get shot but not many. Just do a little looking around the internet and see what its like in Illinois and Iowa for example. People have no problems leasing thousands of acres there. If you have enough $$$ you can do it here. And just say you kill deer, theres nothing to be ashamed of!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Now I think that is the crutch of what is really bothering some...not that ppl aren't hunting wild free range deer...but the idea that some how they are seeing or getting a crack at more or bigger deer than those that hunt on state run lands..

 

State lands that private land owners paying taxes for their private excess or leasees paying what amounts to the leasors taxes...plus income taxes or licenses fees for lands run by the state for non land owning hunters.......

Thats right...Back to the op's question. State land with to many hunters and no deer will force choices. Bottom line is that there will not be enough viable land for the average hunter in the future. More people-less land=something has to give!

[Arrow Flinger]

I don't know if there will really be more hunters in the woods in the future so it might not be that big of a problem. I guess it all boils down to people can hunt the way they want, who am I to say otherwise. Just because many think the deer farming is ridiculous, don't mean you don't have the right to do it. Maybe I'm just entering that crotchety old man stage of life!

[moog5050]

Geesh you make me sound ancient.  I bought my new recurve 4 years ago so I would say no. I have bought different muzzleloaders over the years so again I would say no.  I just purchased a new flint lock to hunt with next year and my scope for my rifle I bought I think 3 years ago.  You are making my entire point.  everyone sees the fools on tv with their free encores and need an encore. The huintign shows are not about hunting, they are about pushing products.  I had an encore and sold it after one year because I could out shoot it with my sidelock..  I do have an H&R inline Ml that I had the barrel fitted to my 25-06 frame.  I sometimes use it during regular season.  I bought a bolt action savage axis last fall and it sat in the cabinet in leiu of the muzzleloader and single shot rifle.  

 

Fair enough.  I know when I started I bought what I thought was the best equipment.  Had nothing to do with what people were pushing, but with what I thought would work best for me to ensure a clean kill.  I just got a recurve and hope to be good enough to take it hunting next season at some point, but I am certain I won't sideline the compound permanently.  We put so much time into scounting and hunting, I want to be sure I have the best equipment to actually kill the deer when the time arrives.  I believe you thought the same when you got rid of the encore because you shoot the sidelock better.

 

All that said, modern equipment aside, I agree with arrow flinger that there is a huge difference between raising bucks and just hunting the deer naturally present in your area.  I am not opposed to try to keep them around, be it via food plots or managing your property, but what we mostly see on TV are deer farms.  Big difference although still measured in degrees unless you really have them penned in.

[moog5050]

BTW - I have no issue with high fence hunts, just not my thing.  WE all recognize the difference between killing a deer on one of those hunts vs. free chase.  Just like I can recognize the difference between those who hunt less populated areas than I do - a smaller buck or doe may be a bigger trophy to any hunter in those areas.  Its all a matter of perspective.  If you see 10 deer every sit, a doe may be no big deal.  If its the only deer you see all season, killing that doe is a big deal.