Taking the plunge

[Doc]

No, you are a first time archer, you have no previous anchor point to compare to. If you are buying everything new, they will measure your draw length, based on the most typical anchor points to get your form in a relatively good position, then they would ask if you will be using a loop and set you up with the correct release and draw length bow.

 

 

lmao you guys just cant seem to grasp the FACT that you dont change a bows draw length with a dloop. PERIOD

Here is the fact that is not being grasped ..... the bow is designed with a force draw curve that is meant for a certain draw length. Archers are sized such that their draw length is different from one archer to the other. The trick is to get the purchased bow's draw length to be the same as the archers personal draw length. It really is that simple. The archer's draw length needs to be established with all the equipment implemented that he intends to use, or he will be either set up with the draw-length bow, or will be involved in tweaking this and adjusting that after he becomes dissatisfied with  the set-up. Since he is a new archer, buying all this equipment, that really shouldn't be much of a hardship for him or the shop owner.

[Doc]

It is a good thing breathing is automatic.

 

Some people simply wouldn't survive.

Ha! it has just suddenly occurred to me that you guys are more interested in creating your little insults than you are in actually reading what is being said and attempting to understand anything. It really is hard (more likely impossible) to have a serious conversation with somebody who has absolutely no interest in understanding what is being said to them.

[orion]

"Frankly, if I were putting good money into a new bow, I would go into the bow-shop and tell the guy hand me a bow with a D-loop already installed, and give me that release over there, I'll pull it back and you measure me up for draw length and order a bow of that draw length. That's the kind of thing that the OP was asking about and that was my recommendation. I would not recommend that anyone be measured up for draw length with known elements of that length being left out. Why on earth would I do that? I do not want to start off by changing this and adjusting that. Just put the stuff on there and get it right the first time. Why does that concept confuse anybody?"

 

I agree Doc

 

But reading a lot of posts I see the reason they say most people shoot a bow to long for them.

[phade]

Frankly, if I were putting good money into a new bow, I would go into the bow-shop and tell the guy hand me a bow with a D-loop already installed, and give me that release over there, I'll pull it back and you measure me up for draw length and order a bow of that draw length. That's the kind of thing that the OP was asking about and that was my recommendation. I would not recommend that anyone be measured up for draw length with known elements of that length being left out. Why on earth would I do that? I do not want to start off by changing this and adjusting that. Just put the stuff on there and get it right the first time. Why does that concept confuse anybody? 

 

If that's the case, why isn't that standard practice in bow shops?

 

Most bow shops do exactly the opposite of what you state.

 

Why is that?

 

We've heard what YOU, the bow tuner to the Gods, would do, but that's not what trained tuners do. I just don't get why the difference.

 

Serious pondering.

 

I've literally been sized up for a bow AT a freaking bow manufacturer by the bow company's engineer and tuner. Literally.

 

Guess how he did it? I'll give you a clue. It was how the others have described here on this thread.

Edited February 25, 2014 by phade

[Doc]

If that's the case, why isn't that standard practice in bow shops?

 

Most bow shops do exactly the opposite of what you state.

 

Why is that?

 

We've heard what YOU, the bow tuner to the Gods, would do, but that's not what trained tuners do. I just don't get why the difference.

 

Serious pondering.

Come on .... you don't have a clue what most bowshops do. But tell me, what part of that process do you think should not be done and why? Would you do any less? If you intended to use a release and a D-loop, would you simply walk up to a bow and wrap your 3 fingers around the string, yank it back and have somebody measure your draw length and then order the bow accordingly? Close enough .... right? How sloppy are you when you spec out your own bow requirements?

[phade]

Come on .... you don't have a clue what most bowshops do. But tell me, what part of that process do you think should not be done and why? Would you do any less? If you intended to use a release and a D-loop, would you simply walk up to a bow and wrap your 3 fingers around the string, yank it back and have somebody measure your draw length and then order the bow accordingly? Close enough .... right? How sloppy are you when you spec out your own bow requirements?

 

I have never ever been to a bow shop that ever measures the way you list out your methodology. Ever. Doe/Moog/WNYB and everyone else has explained how it is done in bow shops, and that is the approach I would take. This is the common and industry-accepted practice - if it weren't and yours was, nobody would be arguing this thread and threatening to off themselves by beating their head against the wall.

 

My DL is my DL is my DL.

 

You have yet to answer why your methodology is NOT used by bow shops. Why?

[moog5050]

Doc

 

Even though you claim no one is making an effort to understand you, perhaps that isn't true and, instead, we just don't agree.  I have no idea how much experience you have with coaching, tuning compound bows, breaking them down, etc.  I will suggest that you contact Nuts & Bolts (Alan) on AT.  He is about as knowledgeable on these issues as anyone and I have studied his posts and tutorials for several years.  Perhaps he could convey what, apparently, we are failing to convey.  Seriously, that guy is a coaching and tuning genius.  Go get it directly from the expert.  I can attest that he is a great teacher and I have learned a ton just from studying his posts.  In fact, I have his 200pg "manual" on my workbench, next to my press and draw board for reference.  It is a sticky on AT.  Check it out and lets agree to completely disagree for now.  Maybe you will change your mind once you talk to Alan or read some of his tutorials. 

 

On to the next hot topic.  Sausage or Bacon and why?

 

 

[phade]

Come on .... you don't have a clue what most bowshops do. But tell me, what part of that process do you think should not be done and why? Would you do any less? If you intended to use a release and a D-loop, would you simply walk up to a bow and wrap your 3 fingers around the string, yank it back and have somebody measure your draw length and then order the bow accordingly? Close enough .... right? How sloppy are you when you spec out your own bow requirements?

 

BTW, asking me how sloppy my bow requirements are is pretty stupid. I know my bow well enough to kill deer at a distance you once flamed me for (and it's not a brag at all - simple fact).

 

Moog may only be going on year three hunting, but you'd be surprised to know that his tuning ability is probably some of the highest on this board. He was texting me last week about dialing his DL down to the 1/16". 1/16"....let me float that by you again...1/16".

[orion]

So release dloop nothing effects the drawlength of the bow you order?

 

 just pull bow back till nock reaches eye?

[phade]

So release dloop nothing effects the drawlength of the bow you order?

 

 just pull bow back till nock reaches eye?

 

I have a 28" DL. I have had a 28 DL bow for that reason.

 

It's really not that hard to understand.

[Doc]

I have never ever been to a bow shop that ever measures the way you list out your methodology. Ever. Doe/Moog/WNYB and everyone else has explained how it is done in bow shops, and that is the approach I would take. This is the common and industry-accepted practice - if it weren't and yours was, nobody would be arguing this thread and threatening to off themselves by beating their head against the wall.

 

My DL is my DL is my DL.

 

You have yet to answer why your methodology is NOT used by bow shops. Why?

And you are assuming that it is not. Look, this is not a popularity contest. You have 4 guys thinking one way and just about as many or more that agree with what I am saying. So what? does that make one position any more correct than the other? This isn't a majority rules discussion ..... lol.

 

I am waiting to hear somebody, anybody, explain what part of my set-up procedure they disagree with and why. I hear a lot of, "Well, jeez, that's just not the way it is done". I don't hear anyone saying, "that simply is the wrong way to go, and here is where that will get you in trouble". Why is that? Why would anyone spec out a bow's requirements only using some of the components that those requirements rely on? Have a go at explaining that to me.

 

[Sogaard]

I think a lot of people in this thread need to be introduced to Nuts&Bolts.

[moog5050]

So release dloop nothing effects the drawlength of the bow you order?

 

 just pull bow back till nock reaches eye?

 

 

If this is still a serious question, my answer would be:

 

If at full draw, the nock is below your eye, you have the right DL bow from the factory.  The length of the dloop or release only impact where you anchor.  Bigger loop or longer release would mean you are anchoring further back on the face and vice versa.  Now, if you really want to get technical, very small adjustments to the DL even after you have ordered the correct DL bow will help steady the pin.  DL movements of 1/16" can make a drastic change on how well and quickly the pin settles.  If the pin is jumpy, DL is likely slightly short.  If it moves slowly in larger circles, it may be a hair long.  That's when a press comes in handy to adjust DL at the very small levels via twisting and untwisting strings and cables.  I know Phade mentioned it, but I did a test on two bows by changing my DL from 27 3/4" up to 28 3/8" in increments of 1/16".  The result on both bows independently was that my pin settled best at 28 1/8".  Both bows are standard 28" DL but the small adjustments in DL make all the difference.  That said, a shop is trying to get you the right DL to the closest 1/2" as that is how bows are sold.  Whether you tinker further to find the precise DL is up to you.

 

Thats my take Orion.

[phade]

And you are assuming that it is not. Look, this is not a popularity contest. You have 4 guys thinking one way and just about as many or more that agree with what I am saying. So what? does that make one position any more correct than the other? This isn't a majority rules discussion ..... lol.

 

I am waiting to hear somebody, anybody, explain what part of my set-up procedure they disagree with and why. I hear a lot of, "Well, jeez, that's just not the way it is done". I don't hear anyone saying, "that simply is the wrong way to go, and here is where that will get you in trouble". Why is that? Why would anyone spec out a bow's requirements only using some of the components that those requirements rely on? Have a go at explaining that to me.

 

 

It's not Doc. What shops can you say do this?

 

Traditions, Heritage, Creekwood, Bullzeye....none of them in this area do this. Neither did Elite.

[moog5050]

I think a lot of people in this thread need to be introduced to Nuts&Bolts.

 

 

He is the man.  Wish I could attend one of his seminars.  Waiting for the DVD to be finished.   Best part is, he will take the time to respond to your PMs.  He is to archery like Dan Infalt is to killing big bucks.  One of the greats, but very approachable and willing to help anyone that simply asks politely.

[orion]

So you should change your anchor point to accommodate bow release and dloop?

 

Anchoring somewhere else then what might be more comfortable and more repeatable for you?

 

 

[Doc]

It's not Doc. What shops can you say do this?

 

Traditions, Heritage, Creekwood, Bullzeye....none of them in this area do this. Neither did Elite.

I am not the expert on what all shops in NYS do. I'll leave you with that title ....lol. And even if this is not done, that does not mean that it shouldn't. Maybe shop owners don't want to take the time for extra steps. Maybe they feel that extra 1/2" is insignificant. Maybe they don't even know that a D-loop will be put on the string? Maybe they are thinking that whatever you decide to put on your bow is your problem. Maybe they are assuming that you will fiddle-fart around with your anchor or your release length or do whatever nonsense you have to do to make things work for you. I am not a mind reader. Frankly your question is irrelevant as to whether it is a good idea to spec out a bow's requirements using the exact accessories that will be shot on the bow.

 

But why is it that you will not (cannot?) point to the flaws in my set-up/measuring procedure? Why aren't you telling me why it is wrong and where it will lead to improper results and problems? Why is it a problem to spec out a bow's requirements using the exact accessories that will be shot on the bow? Try answering a few questions for a change instead of just saying, "Well gosh it simply isn't done".

 

[phade]

I am not the expert on what all shops in NYS do. And even if this is not done, that does not mean that it shouldn't. Maybe shop owners don't want to take the time for extra steps. Maybe they feel that extra 1/2" is insignificant. Maybe they don't even know that a D-loop will be put on the string? Maybe they are thinking that whatever you decide to put on your bow is your problem. Frankly your question is irrelevant as to whether it is a good idea to spec out a bow's requirements using the exact accessories that will be shot on the bow.

 

But why is it that you will not (cannot?) point to the flaws in my set-up/measuring procedure? Why aren't you telling me why it is wrong and where it will lead to improper results and problems? Why is it a problem to spec out a bow's requirements using the exact accessories that will be shot on the bow? Try answering a few questions for a change instead of just saying, "Well gosh it simply isn't done".

 

 

Because your DL is your DL. That's why. Simple.

 

I don't need to type any more than that.

[moog5050]

So you should change your anchor point to accommodate bow release and dloop?

 

Anchoring somewhere else then what might be more comfortable and more repeatable for you?

 

 

Not necessarily.  You can alter the d-loop or release to find that right anchor for you.  That's the type of small changes that you go through after you have the perfect DL typically.  That doesn't change DL though.  Some coaches may tell you to anchor differently if your way off even if its less comfortable at first.  I have swapped between a back tension release and a wrist and trigger release.  Both required different anchor points for me.  DL never changed though.  I have also shortened my d-loop for a more repeatable anchor.  Again, that didn't change my optimal DL.

 

Good luck with however you choose to shoot. 

[Doc]

Because your DL is your DL. That's why. Simple.

 

I don't need to type any more than that.

best non-answer we have had on this thread so far. look, you aren't even reading my replies. That answer isn't even relative to anything in my quote. This conversation is not really being taken seriously or even being responded to. I am wasting my time with someone who doesn't even read replies or care what the discussion is even about. I really shouldn't be doing that.

[moog5050]

I am not the expert on what all shops in NYS do. I'll leave you with that title ....lol. And even if this is not done, that does not mean that it shouldn't. Maybe shop owners don't want to take the time for extra steps. Maybe they feel that extra 1/2" is insignificant. Maybe they don't even know that a D-loop will be put on the string? Maybe they are thinking that whatever you decide to put on your bow is your problem. Maybe they are assuming that you will fiddle-fart around with your anchor or your release length or do whatever nonsense you have to do to make things work for you. I am not a mind reader. Frankly your question is irrelevant as to whether it is a good idea to spec out a bow's requirements using the exact accessories that will be shot on the bow.

 

But why is it that you will not (cannot?) point to the flaws in my set-up/measuring procedure? Why aren't you telling me why it is wrong and where it will lead to improper results and problems? Why is it a problem to spec out a bow's requirements using the exact accessories that will be shot on the bow? Try answering a few questions for a change instead of just saying, "Well gosh it simply isn't done".

 

 

 

Because, as has been explained ad nauseum, the accessories don't change a shooters true DL.  Let me ask you this, assuming assessories never change, do you believe there is a correct DL for a shooter?  Do you think its optimal to have a shooter with a nock at his ear at full draw or perhaps at the chin if that is what is comfortable for him?  If the answer is yes, then you are bucking what every coach will teach.  Why, because the idea is to have the skeletal frame support the bow at full draw and relax the muscles.  If you are not in a T position (the position which will result in the nock under the eye), then you are using more muscle which tends to cause erratic movement of the pin and a less repeatable shot.

 

Do you agree that the nock should be under the eye at full draw?  If we can't agree on that simple premise, then we have no common ground to start the discussion that has been ongoing for 60-70 posts.  And again, I will agree to disagree. 

[phade]

All you do is say my short responses are the result of not reading your information. Look, you just can't admit to yourself that what you think is the best thing since sliced bread is actually in your head. It's not an industry accepted practice and many people have commented on the industry accepted practice. If your idea was THAT great, THAT correct, THAT much more right, it'd be done by the shop in large. It's not. What's that say? It says you are on an island and the king of your own castle. That's it.

 

Your draw length is your draw length. You can't seem to understand that, and instead try to say you are holier than thou because we're not "reading" your posts. We're reading them, and the reply is the same, because you are spinning your wheels.

 

 

Edited February 25, 2014 by phade

[Doc]

Not necessarily.  You can alter the d-loop or release to find that right anchor for you.  That's the type of small changes that you go through after you have the perfect DL typically.  That doesn't change DL though.  Some coaches may tell you to anchor differently if your way off even if its less comfortable at first.  I have swapped between a back tension release and a wrist and trigger release.  Both required different anchor points for me.  DL never changed though.  I have also shortened my d-loop for a more repeatable anchor.  Again, that didn't change my optimal DL.

 

Good luck with however you choose to shoot. 

All these tweaks and adjustments and even changes in anchor are simply trying to alter things to re-match your personal draw length back to the bow's as-purchased draw length after changes in equipment have forced you to do so ...... right?

[phade]

All these tweaks and adjustments and even changes in anchor are simply trying to alter things to re-match your personal draw length back to the bow's as-purchased draw length after changes in equipment have forced you to do so ...... right?

 

I don't think so. There's a reason BOTH of his bows turned out to be the same DL again.

 

BECAUSE IT IS HIS DL!

[NFA-ADK]

Don't bother Doc, some things just can not be explained. 

 

Draw length :  1)One can refer this as the length of the bow when drawn.  String to full draw. 

 

One can refer this as the length one has to draw to get to full draw.  Two different things.

 

While both can be the same distance on how far back has to be pulled the anchor point will change causing a bow that is set up for a 30" draw that is perfect to be OFF if the person adds a D-loop. 

 

Same draw Length YES but the person with a D-loop is now back 1/2 inch.  Resulting in what Feels like a longer draw when in actuality the draw is the same but he anchor points are different. 

 

While the bow Draw length is the same and the length the person needs to draw back is the same distance from the bow the person is now further back on anchor resulting in the person having to stretch the anchor point further back making it a longer draw for that person. 

 

Effect: Same draw length yes but because of the added D-loop the person is not drawing back further to get to full draw.  Understand?  Same distance to draw but adding a D-loop causes person to draw back further to get TOOOOOO full draw resulting in what is in actuality a longer draw length for that person.