QDM Meeting with Neighbors

[Four Season Whitetail's]

You my friend should really do some research on CWD before you post about it on a public site. I could blow so many holes in your words and thoughs with fact proven science.

 

You say you want to support QDMA and their thoughts on buck harvests and letting them mature. Correct????

 

 So now do you want to read the facts and the science that shows CWD has been found in more male whitetails than females by a long shot and the fact that CWD has been found in more mature male whitetails than yearlings.

 

So if you support these standings then you also are supporting the movement of CWD across the countryside along with the rest of the followers.  Facts are showing more and more that CWD is spread by hunters themselves.

 

 I support the feeding of wildlife and the care of land. I do plenty of it on my 1000 acres of land.  QDM is TDM and deer farming all wrapped up in one package. Throw in a couple feel good words and you have the QDMA.  Simple!

[dbHunterNY]

You my friend should really do some research on CWD before you post about it on a public site. I could blow so many holes in your words and thoughs with fact proven science.

 

You say you want to support QDMA and their thoughts on buck harvests and letting them mature. Correct????

 

 So now do you want to read the facts and the science that shows CWD has been found in more male whitetails than females by a long shot and the fact that CWD has been found in more mature male whitetails than yearlings.

 

So if you support these standings then you also are supporting the movement of CWD across the countryside along with the rest of the followers.  Facts are showing more and more that CWD is spread by hunters themselves.

 

 I support the feeding of wildlife and the care of land. I do plenty of it on my 1000 acres of land.  QDM is TDM and deer farming all wrapped up in one package. Throw in a couple feel good words and you have the QDMA.  Simple!

 

hahah.... no I don't have to really do some research on CWD before I post about it on a public site.  I've done some and what I found was what I posted.  if I'm wrong it's ok. if you're wrong, it'd still be ok.  science evolves as things change new findings happen every day.  that's why we're encouraged to be grown men without attitudes who discuss important aspects of what we care about.  we're allowed to talk about this stuff in public.  so, if you can blow so many holes in my words and thoughts then tell me.  specifically what was wrong with what I said based on what you've researched?  so what you're saying is we'd help the spread of CWD by shooting bucks before they mature?  what age is this?

 

...about your question.  yes, so far I do support what QDMA is about, based on what I was told in the meeting.  they didn't really discuss much about letting bucks mature so much as to keep enough bucks alive to get a good ratio and structure.  they actually said that a mature buck is 5.5 years old as it reaches it's peak between 5.5-7.5 years old, in which case I agree.  They said you definitely could get bucks that old but it's not too likely even under QDM.

Edited March 31, 2014 by dbHunterNY

[Four Season Whitetail's]

hahah.... no I don't have to really do some research on CWD before I post about it on a public site.  I've done some and what I found was what I posted.  if I'm wrong it's ok. if you're wrong, it'd still be ok.  science evolves as things change new findings happen every day.  that's why we're encouraged to be grown men without attitudes who discuss important aspects of what we care about.  we're allowed to talk about this stuff in public.  so, if you can blow so many holes in my words and thoughts then tell me.  specifically what was wrong with what I said based on what you've researched?  so what you're saying is we'd help the spread of CWD by shooting bucks before they mature?  what age is this?

 

...about your question.  yes, so far I do support what QDMA is about, based on what I was told in the meeting.  they didn't really discuss much about letting bucks mature so much as to keep enough bucks alive to get a good ratio and structure.  they actually said that a mature buck is 5.5 years old as it reaches it's peak between 5.5-7.5 years old, in which case I agree.  They said you definitely could get bucks that old but it's not too likely even under QDM.

Go back up to post #171 and read what a QDMA member of like 10 years has to say about QDMA and their ducking the issue of letting bucks walk to mature because they are infact the biggest proven carriers of CWD.    If QDMA really had the animal and the best intrests of hunting on their mind they would not defend AR restricts like they do in Michigan but would say all male whitetails should be shot on sight regardless of size or age.

 

Do you read the QDMA website?

Edited March 31, 2014 by Four Season Whitetails

[dbHunterNY]

Go back up to post #171 and read what a QDMA member of like 10 years has to say about QDMA and their ducking the issue of letting bucks walk to mature because they are infact the biggest proven carriers of CWD.    If QDMA really had the animal and the best intrests of hunting on their mind they would not defend AR restricts like they do in Michigan but would say all male whitetails should be shot on sight regardless of size or age.

 

Do you read the QDMA website?

 

I understand you now.  it was clouded with the talk of mature bucks again, when really you and others think the issue is about QDMA thinking that any buck should walk.  Yea I've read articles on their site and other stuff.  I can't say I've read stuff in the forums where that info you posted came from though.  Just published articles or those put on their site.

 

I'm not sure anyone would agree with the stance you feel they should take to be honest.  I think the QDMA wouldn't be liked at all if they said you as a hunter doesn't have a choice in what you take and that you must take the first buck that presents an opportunity, regardless of what it is or what you think about it.  I know you don't do that, because you've said earlier in this post that you're after the biggest buck in the woods.  no conservation efforts I know of ever target a game sex with no discretion once so ever.  that to me would be something driven by fear more than anything.  many relevant entities, such as the Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance, have said not to have this attitude as it inhibits understanding of it and further work toward finding a solution to it.  it's said right in their video series they've got on their website.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I understand you now.  it was clouded with the talk of mature bucks again, when really you and others think the issue is about QDMA thinking that any buck should walk.  Yea I've read articles on their site and other stuff.  I can't say I've read stuff in the forums where that info you posted came from though.  Just published articles or those put on their site.

 

I'm not sure anyone would agree with the stance you feel they should take to be honest.  I think the QDMA wouldn't be liked at all if they said you as a hunter doesn't have a choice in what you take and that you must take the first buck that presents an opportunity, regardless of what it is or what you think about it.  I know you don't do that, because you've said earlier in this post that you're after the biggest buck in the woods.  no conservation efforts I know of ever target a game sex with no discretion once so ever.  that to me would be something driven by fear more than anything.  many relevant entities, such as the Chronic Wasting Disease Alliance, have said not to have this attitude as it inhibits understanding of it and further work toward finding a solution to it.  it's said right in their video series they've got on their website.

Very good words!!!  I bolded the best.  You see its not that anyone needs to agree with the QDMA.  Its a fact, proven by science that CWD is moved more by all male deer and more so by mature male deer. Well if the QDMA does not change their stance then they are doing nothing to fight this disease.  But on the other hand they want to put all the blame and laws  against high fence because they say our TESTED herds move CWD???? HMMM. Can you say hypocrite?

  Different story when its on the other foot!!!   I work and do my QDM for the biggest buck in the woods yes. On both sides of the fence because the true fact is, is that CWD is doing nothing in any state by any means to hurt the wild populations.  If you could get rid of the DEC and EHD of states, there would be a much better wild herd in all states.

 

But untill someone proves science wrong, The QDMA group supports the movement of disease across the countryside with their management practices!

[dbHunterNY]

Very good words!!!  I bolded the best.  You see its not that anyone needs to agree with the QDMA.  Its a fact, proven by science that CWD is moved more by all male deer and more so by mature male deer. Well if the QDMA does not change their stance then they are doing nothing to fight this disease.  But on the other hand they want to put all the blame and laws  against high fence because they say our TESTED herds move CWD???? HMMM. Can you say hypocrite?

  Different story when its on the other foot!!!   I work and do my QDM for the biggest buck in the woods yes. On both sides of the fence because the true fact is, is that CWD is doing nothing in any state by any means to hurt the wild populations.  If you could get rid of the DEC and EHD of states, there would be a much better wild herd in all states.

 

But untill someone proves science wrong, The QDMA group supports the movement of disease across the countryside with their management practices!

 

I assume the questions were rhetorical and you weren't insulting my brain power and implying I've got aphasia.  if you're saying they would then be doing nothing to fight this disease, then that means you would only know about male deer contributing to the spread of CWD.  All the other procedures, regulations, and practices science has learned about the spread of CWD doesn't apply?  I mean there's a lot of it, all the way down to how to hang your deer as to inhibit the migration of prions that cause CWD to other parts of the carcass and meat that will most likely be traveling across the country side.  you said in this thread yourself that hunters, and I'm sure this includes those educated by the QDMA, are a big part of whether or not CWD spreads too.  So is what you said that hunters could spread CWD is wrong or what you just said in your last statement about QDMA wrong?

 

so outside the fence you use QDM to produce the biggest bucks instead of shooting the first male deer you see, when to your knowledge you knowingly could be contributing to the spread of CWD outside your fence.  why is it not a problem for you to do it but you've got a problem if QDMA was to support it?

 

 

...I should probably add this.  I'm ignoring the fact that you just said "CWD is doing nothing in any state by any means to hurt the wild population."  I'm am because you're the one that brought up CWD as an issue.  so saying it's now not an issue after this whole time of arguing with people, I have to think you just meant to type something else.

Edited March 31, 2014 by dbHunterNY

[WNYBuckHunter]

Very good words!!!  I bolded the best.  You see its not that anyone needs to agree with the QDMA.  Its a fact, proven by science that CWD is moved more by all male deer and more so by mature male deer. Well if the QDMA does not change their stance then they are doing nothing to fight this disease.  But on the other hand they want to put all the blame and laws  against high fence because they say our TESTED herds move CWD???? HMMM. Can you say hypocrite?

  Different story when its on the other foot!!!   I work and do my QDM for the biggest buck in the woods yes. On both sides of the fence because the true fact is, is that CWD is doing nothing in any state by any means to hurt the wild populations.  If you could get rid of the DEC and EHD of states, there would be a much better wild herd in all states.

 

But untill someone proves science wrong, The QDMA group supports the movement of disease across the countryside with their management practices!

 

 

I read through the study you apparently are referring to, the one done in Wisconsin, and its full of more holes than a wheel of Swiss cheese. They even admit to that in the conclusionary paragraphs at the end. Can you support any of this stuff you are spouting with more than one specific study? Please, dont post more quotes from forums, someones opinion doesnt interest me. Usually for something to become "scientific fact", it takes multiple studies coming up with the same or similar results.

[hondamx32]

Just curious how was CWD originally introduced into NY? 

[dbHunterNY]

i think there's a lot of open questions right now and we should wait and let FourSeasonsWhitetails (Mike) have a chance to respond as to not be over burdened with questions.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

i think there's a lot of open questions right now and we should wait and let FourSeasonsWhitetails (Mike) have a chance to respond as to not be over burdened with questions.

Oh he will be fine. It isn't that difficult to cut and paste the same thing to each of them over and over. He will keep up.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I assume the questions were rhetorical and you weren't insulting my brain power and implying I've got aphasia.  if you're saying they would then be doing nothing to fight this disease, then that means you would only know about male deer contributing to the spread of CWD.  All the other procedures, regulations, and practices science has learned about the spread of CWD doesn't apply?  I mean there's a lot of it, all the way down to how to hang your deer as to inhibit the migration of prions that cause CWD to other parts of the carcass and meat that will most likely be traveling across the country side.  you said in this thread yourself that hunters, and I'm sure this includes those educated by the QDMA, are a big part of whether or not CWD spreads too.  So is what you said that hunters could spread CWD is wrong or what you just said in your last statement about QDMA wrong?

 

so outside the fence you use QDM to produce the biggest bucks instead of shooting the first male deer you see, when to your knowledge you knowingly could be contributing to the spread of CWD outside your fence.  why is it not a problem for you to do it but you've got a problem if QDMA was to support it?

 

 

...I should probably add this.  I'm ignoring the fact that you just said "CWD is doing nothing in any state by any means to hurt the wild population."  I'm am because you're the one that brought up CWD as an issue.  so saying it's now not an issue after this whole time of arguing with people, I have to think you just meant to type something else.

Dont ignore anything i said about CWD. Its now proven to be spread by males more than females and adults more than yearlings.  Any association that stands for the practice of letting bucks grow to be mature is a big part of the problem.

 I said CWD was not a problem in states because its not killing the deer in any states. In fact if you look at the record books you will see CWD positive states at the top year after year.  Now how can this be when we were told this disease was going to wipe the whitetails off the face of the earth?  Seems like a state gets CWD..They get more deer and the population blows up?  Funny how that can be.

 So now some associations are being called out for spewing off about a so called big problem with CWD when in fact it was the only ammo they had to save their skin.  That dog dont hunt any longer and even their members are calling them out over it.

 

 I wish you the best on your new adventure and maybe we will get lucky and CWD will waltz across from Pa and help us all out.

 Its coming!

[WNYBuckHunter]

FSW, can you post up some links to studies that affirm what you are saying?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

FSW, can you post up some links to studies that affirm what you are saying?

Jump right on the qdma website and then jump on the lord tss blog. Its all there to read.   If you cant find the B&C or the P&Y yearly trophy listings, well it wont matter then.

[Jason118]

Wow ~ I can't believe I just read all that!

[dbHunterNY]

Dont ignore anything i said about CWD. Its now proven to be spread by males more than females and adults more than yearlings.  Any association that stands for the practice of letting bucks grow to be mature is a big part of the problem.

 I said CWD was not a problem in states because its not killing the deer in any states. In fact if you look at the record books you will see CWD positive states at the top year after year.  Now how can this be when we were told this disease was going to wipe the whitetails off the face of the earth?  Seems like a state gets CWD..They get more deer and the population blows up?  Funny how that can be.

 So now some associations are being called out for spewing off about a so called big problem with CWD when in fact it was the only ammo they had to save their skin.  That dog dont hunt any longer and even their members are calling them out over it.

 

 I wish you the best on your new adventure and maybe we will get lucky and CWD will waltz across from Pa and help us all out.

 Its coming!

 

well I certainly don't want deer to get CWD in this area, but thank you for the well wishes.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

well I certainly don't want deer to get CWD in this area, but thank you for the well wishes.

Just a little more proof that the QDMA is not all they are cracked up to be.  I dont believe i have seen any statements from them anywhere changing their harvest thoughts and beliefs.  CWD is not only in Wisconsin.

 

 

March 28, 2014 5:00 pm  •  PATRICK DURKIN For the State Journal

(1) Comments

Researchers at the University of Wisconsin believe CWD could be reduced and managed by focusing heavy hunting pressure on bucks, which are twice more likely than female deer to carry the fatal disease.

Enlarge Photo

A just-released University of Wisconsin study on chronic wasting disease recommends focusing more hunting pressure on the deer most likely to carry and spread CWD in whitetails: bucks, the males of the species.

The peer-reviewed study, released March 21 and published online in PLOS ONE, was led by Christopher S. Jennelle, Ph.D., and Professor Michael D. Samuel at UW. Samuel concedes many hunters will dislike shooting more bucks to reduce CWD, but Jennelle’s study predicts the alternative is CWD increasingly infecting more deer while spreading across the landscape.

Samuel said this “acceleration of the infection rate” is already underway in the CWD’s core area in southwestern Wisconsin. Further, the researchers wrote that current deer-management practices in the area will have a predictable result: “Nearly 50 percent of adult males and 25 to 30 percent of adult females are expected to become infected within another decade.”

In fact, those numbers could be conservative.

“If we learn disease transmission is strongly tied to the amount of prions deer shed into their environment, and if that reservoir continues to build and worsen with the disease’s acceleration, our prevalence prediction would be optimistic,” Samuel said in an interview. “In a worst case, it might look like the 80 percent prevalence we saw on the Hall Farm.”

In contrast, if the Department of Natural Resources implemented a buck-focused management strategy and hunters carried it out, deer herds would soon have fewer adult bucks but lower disease rates. The study projects a buck-focused plan would soon start reducing the CWD rate and drop it into the 5 percent range in 30 to 40 years.

“We’ll probably never get rid of CWD, so the goal becomes how do we get it to a manageable level, one that doesn’t impact our deer herd; and how do we try to contain it so not every area becomes infected?” Samuel said. “If we don’t, the disease will grow worse and before long have impacts on the deer population.”

The research article put it this way: “The tradeoff between strategies is clear. CWD can eventually be reduced with fewer opportunities to harvest healthy bucks, or more adult bucks may be available for harvest but with higher rates of CWD infection.”

But “more adult bucks” is no certainty in that second scenario. Samuel said as CWD worsens, fewer bucks will reach older age classes, and hunters who managed properties for bigger bucks will start losing more of them to CWD.

“These are sobering options, but the sooner we act, the less severe the problems and choices we’ll face,” Samuel said. “If we don’t do anything, and just stick with what we’re now doing, we’ll lose more adult males because we’ll get such high infection rates. Most of those deer will probably get killed, one way or another.”

Jennelle, Samuel and their research team reached those conclusions after studying deer-harvest data from Wisconsin’s 2002 to 2013 hunting seasons, evaluating rates of CWD infection, and analyzing how alternative management plans would affect CWD and the herd.

The 12 years of data showed CWD infection rates are twice as high in males than females, and support the idea that CWD is a “frequency-dependent,” not a “density-dependent” disease. That means the rate at which deer become infected is driven by CWD prevalence in the herd, not the size of the herd.

Therefore, as prevalence rises, the rate and number of new infections also rise. Unlike many frequency-dependent diseases, however, CWD can probably be reduced because hunters could target CWD’s most likely carriers.

“Frequency-dependent diseases are typically hard to control with generalized removal strategies,” Samuel said. “If male and female deer had the same disease prevalence, the only way to reduce prevalence would be to selectively remove more infected animals than uninfected animals. We’d have to capture deer and test them, which would be very difficult and costly. Because we can easily distinguish bucks (by their antlers) from females, we’re lucky to have a management option.”

Samuel said the research reinforces his skepticism that evolution and natural selection is a viable management option. “The sooner we actually do something about CWD, the better off we’ll be,” he said. “We still don’t know how the disease spreads, but one likely way is by infected yearling bucks dispersing to new areas. The worse the disease prevalence, the higher the infection rate we’ll see in young bucks, and the more likely they’ll spread the disease.”

Samuel said CWD prevalence and its potential impacts were mostly ignored shortly after the disease was discovered in Wisconsin in November 2001. However, this new research also found that focusing hunting pressure on females to reduce deer densities won’t, by itself, reduce CWD prevalence either.

“Shooting more bucks to reduce prevalence is one key to managing this disease, but we still need to work on abundance to some extent,” Samuel said. “These things go hand in hand.”

Further, reducing buck numbers and the overall deer population in CWD areas would make vaccination a more practical possibility, should a vaccine ever become available.

“The lower the disease prevalence, the smaller the affected landscape, and the lower the deer population, the higher percentage of the herd you’d be able to treat,” Samuel said. “The better we can manage this disease now, the better we’d be able to manage it if we ever find that silver bullet.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/sports/recreation/outdoors/patrick-durkin-uw-study-recommends-killing-more-bucks-to-fight/article_227dd384-743b-58da-b21c-2ab2e94f1ec7.html#ixzz2xhJ85b8q

[dbHunterNY]

just couldn't help yourself.  remember, nobody's bashing one group or the other.  here's something to think about.

 

sure bucks are inherently going to be more likely in an area with CWD.  by their nature they're more frequently coming into contact with another deer, a deer that could have CWD.  however, they talk about prevalence in the herd being the driving factor.  well if bucks are 2 times as likely to have CWD when compared to doe, yet we have 4 times the number of doe compared to bucks where I hunt which is not good.  that means where I hunt would have twice as much CWD prevalence in the doe herd.  that's why that study says both must be considered.  you just bolded the text until you got to the "but..."

 

we don't know EXACTLY how it spreads would be accurate.   Certain means through which it's transmitted is known.  this is a major reason the DEC doesn't allow putting out bait or minerals for deer at any time during the year.

 

you can't read only the lines you like and then you got to think about what you read.  none of this stuff is a one size fits all sort of thing.  even here within NY areas are different.  you got to take what you learn and see how it applies to your situation.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

just couldn't help yourself.  remember, nobody's bashing one group or the other.  here's something to think about.

 

sure bucks are inherently going to be more likely in an area with CWD.  by their nature they're more frequently coming into contact with another deer, a deer that could have CWD.  however, they talk about prevalence in the herd being the driving factor.  well if bucks are 2 times as likely to have CWD when compared to doe, yet we have 4 times the number of doe compared to bucks where I hunt which is not good.  that means where I hunt would have twice as much CWD prevalence in the doe herd.  that's why that study says both must be considered.  you just bolded the text until you got to the "but..."

 

we don't know EXACTLY how it spreads would be accurate.   Certain means through which it's transmitted is known.  this is a major reason the DEC doesn't allow putting out bait or minerals for deer at any time during the year.

 

you can't read only the lines you like and then you got to think about what you read.  none of this stuff is a one size fits all sort of thing.  even here within NY areas are different.  you got to take what you learn and see how it applies to your situation.

I agree 100% on the bolded statement but what WE DO know,after 12 years of research is that CWD is found higher in males then females and more in adult males.  With this being known, any group that supports the practice of letting bucks live to maturity is a big part of the problem. All males should be shot on sight in any CWD positive state!!!!

[Doewhacker]

. All males should be shot on sight in any CWD positive state!!!!

 

 

And yet you hole heartedly support AR's. You don't make any more sense today than you did when this thread first started.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

And yet you hole heartedly support AR's. You don't make any more sense today than you did when this thread first started.

It's the flavor of the day

[Four Season Whitetail's]

And yet you hole heartedly support AR's. You don't make any more sense today than you did when this thread first started.

Well Duh...Last time i knew there were no new CWD cases in my state or my 1000 acres of land.  Show me CWD where i live/hunt and i will show you piles of dead yearlings.  Thats what the white coats would do right?   I would just help them out.

 

Now lets wait and see how long it takes the QDMA to give their thoughts on proven science.  I wont hold my breath for either the QDMA or B&C club to agree and do whats right for the herd/land.  The day they do is the day they fold.  Sure wont need a record book for dead yearlings will ya?

Just another money thing in this world.  The QDMA will be pressed in print in the future im sure. We will see if that squeeky wheel gets any greese.

[nyantler]

Well Duh...Last time i knew there were no new CWD cases in my state or my 1000 acres of land.  Show me CWD where i live/hunt and i will show you piles of dead yearlings.  Thats what the white coats would do right?   I would just help them out.

 

Now lets wait and see how long it takes the QDMA to give their thoughts on proven science.  I wont hold my breath for either the QDMA or B&C club to agree and do whats right for the herd/land.  The day they do is the day they fold.  Sure wont need a record book for dead yearlings will ya?

Just another money thing in this world.  The QDMA will be pressed in print in the future im sure. We will see if that squeeky wheel gets any greese.

The QDMA & B&C are both non-profit organizations... I can assure you that neither is about money. The only money operation is deer farms like yours... you have everything to gain by passing on the nonsense you've been posting. Again, you certainly understand nothing about CWD.. that is apparent with each post.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

The QDMA & B&C are both non-profit organizations... I can assure you that neither is about money. The only money operation is deer farms like yours... you have everything to gain by passing on the nonsense you've been posting. Again, you certainly understand nothing about CWD.. that is apparent with each post.

QDMA..Non profit?  Who pays their paychecks every week.   I have forgot more about CWD than you will ever know.  When smucks like you try to use it against you a person learns real quick.  If i can help someone put a extra 40 grand a year in their pocket and maybe enjoy life a bit, you can bet ya i will. Not to many years from now that number will be 140 because sales will be unlimited. Oh how nice!

[Terry]

FSW, your post seem to keep coming back to your profit, yet you claim other non-profit conservation groups distort the truth because money is power. Have you ever heard that people who are quick to accuse others of lying are normally inveterate liars themselves. It's part of being human to assume that others think like oneself.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

FSW, your post seem to keep coming back to your profit, yet you claim other non-profit conservation groups distort the truth because money is power. Have you ever heard that people who are quick to accuse others of lying are normally inveterate liars themselves. It's part of being human to assume that others think like oneself.

Funny, Where in that post is there anything in there about profit i have made?  All  i see is a post about a great business and the amount i could help a person make.   Remember i have been in this for 15 years. Little different numbers numbers for me.

 

Lying?  I asked how a non profit org. Got their paychecks every week?  Any Answer To That?