Game Populations

[Curmudgeon]

This is a brain exercise. Interpret “habitat quality” and “improvement” broadly: food, cover, impacts of invasive species, etc.

 

Are there too few deer?

 

If yes, what is the best way to increase populations?

A) Improve habitat

Hunt and trap coyotes

C) Reduce the doe take - lobby for fewer DMPs

 

Are there too many deer?

 

If yes, what is the best way to decrease populations?

A) Harvest does using hunters - increase DMP and DMAP tags

Improve land access - Open closed lands to hunting, including State Parks

C) Use professionals to kill does

D) Protect coyotes

 

Are there too few turkeys?

 

If yes, what is the best way to increase populations?

A) Improve habitat

Hunt and trap coyotes

C) Hunt and trap meso-predators: foxes, skunks, opposums, raccoons, fishers

D) Protect coyotes to reduce meso-predator populations

 

How would you rank the limiting factors for game populations:

 

A) Habitat quality

Predators

C) Human disturbance of habitat – agriculture, development, etc.

D) Severe winters

Edited April 29, 2015 by Curmudgeon

[Curmudgeon]

Can't seem go get to work. BBBBBB

 

 

B and ) give the emoticon. Weird.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Curmudgeon

[ATbuckhunter]

First 3 are A and the last is C for me. 

[growalot]

question 3 and 4 are off

 

3 should be C

http://www.cof.orst.edu/leopold/papers/mesopredators.pdf

 

For those that don't like to click links this is the intro to the article..sorry copy is messed up,but you can still get what it's about...article is good IMO

Apex predators have experienced catastrophic declines throughout

the world as a result of human persecution and habitat loss. T

hese collapses in

top predator populations are commonly associated with dramatic in

creases in the abundance of smaller predators. Known as “mesop

redator release,”

this trophic interaction has been recorded across a range of communities and ecosystems. Mesopredator outbreaks often lead to d

eclining prey

populations, sometimes destabilizing communities and driving local extinctions. We present an overview of mesopredator release

and illustrate how

its underlying concepts can be used to improve predator management in an increasingly fragmented world. We also examine shifts

in North

American carnivore ranges during the past 200 years and show that 60% of mesopredator ranges have expanded, whereas all apex pr

edator ranges

have contracted. The need to understand how best to predict and manage mesopredator release is urgent—mesopredator outbreaks ar

e causing high

ecological, economic, and social costs around the world

 

 

 

4 was asked to "Rank"....Was B to be your top ranking or did you list the factors as A-D as the ranking most to least important?

 

Rank refers to the relative position, value, worth, complexity, power, importance, authority, level etc. of a person or object.

 

Edited April 29, 2015 by growalot

[dbHunterNY]

it's multiple choice so I've picked one answer for each but that's not to say the others aren't applicable.

 

A - currently areas with habitat that is just hard to support much more deer or make it enough of a utopia for them to not disperse else where or simply not make it.  not be as healthy and productive, etc.

 

A - this answer was kind of double sided.  you can't just increase tags without education.  DEC has said they've haven't seen proportional harvest increases with increased tags available.  more hunters I know that don't fill DMPs or DMAPs had the opportunity to do so, but passed for whatever reason or just didn't have their stuff together (gun not sighted in, etc.) to punch the tag.  you'll always get a few pockets of private land working like a deer safe haven but it evens things out with harvest taking place on neighboring properties from what I've seen (Phade and Moog's spot as an example).  a vast majority of private properties are hunted, even the ones you think aren't.  state land access can help but often heavy pressure pushes deer into neighboring private property. (I think Fourseasons has probably taken advantage of this with his property).  I've taken advantage of it while hunting the fringes of various public lands.

 

A? - not up on turkey stuff as much as deer.  I just hunt them.  I do know that on our farm we've seen booming years for turkey's and predators just as prevalent.  when habitat supported better cover from rotating crop fields, TSI, etc.) near roosting sights and other habitat like late previous season food we saw plenty of poults making it through.  seems every year there's plenty of pressure but that seems to be a short term effect that seems to change from week to week.

 

C - beyond contestation.  all the conditions can be right and perfect but we can definitely still screw it all up.  I've seen alfalfa fields with 50 deer in them turn into housing developments.  I've seen nice stands of newer hardwoods that provided tons of mast poorly logs to nothing.  then poor harvest choices and other stuff.

 

...you now know my opinion.  hunting trapping predators thing is important only to a degree and to extent.  both can and do co-exist but you can't manage one without the other. lots of deer and yotes, followed by a substantial harvest of deer leaves the yotes with limited food source and there's a lag where they'll eat the population down. until they figure out they've got to go somewhere else but now your numbers are temporarily low for a season or two.  nature works the same year in and year out.  we are the variable that isn't constant and messes with things.

 

 

[ATbuckhunter]

I think what most people don't understand is that habitat is one of the most important things to improving game populations and quality. Predators do play a significant role but are not the end all be all like some would think. If most people put the same amount of energy in habitat improvement then they do predator control, we'd have quite a few more game species running around.

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[Curmudgeon]

question 3 and 4 are off

 

3 should be C

http://www.cof.orst.edu/leopold/papers/mesopredators.pdf

 

For those that don't like to click links this is the intro to the article..sorry copy is messed up,but you can still get what it's about...article is good IMO

 

4 was asked to "Rank"....Was B to be your top ranking or did you list the factors as A-D as the ranking most to least important?

 

Rank refers to the relative position, value, worth, complexity, power, importance, authority, level etc. of a person or object.

 

Grow -

 

Thanks for the mesopredator info.

 

I really didn't expect many replies. I just wanted people to think about these things. The world is sometimes complicated.

 

it's multiple choice so I've picked one answer for each but that's not to say the others aren't applicable.

 

db - Agree. Things aren't that black and white. Sometimes what we do is a big uncontrolled experiment.

[growalot]

Your welcome...actually I was surprised to see someone use that term....

[Doc]

I think what most people don't understand is that habitat is one of the most important things to improving game populations and quality. Predators do play a significant role but are not the end all be all like some would think. If most people put the same amount of energy in habitat improvement then they do predator control, we'd have quite a few more game species running around.

Yes, habitat is the primary controlling factor of herd management. That really is the one factor that determines how big the herd can naturally grow and how big it should grow. However as a state, that is the one feature that we have the least control over and it is the one feature that is on a fast decline.

 

The next important factor in herd management is hunting activity and how efficient hunters can be used to regulate herd size through antlerless permitting and harvesting. If done right, this factor can be used to maximize the use of the available habitat.

 

Predators are a very distant third importance in herd control. You might see some effect from predators, but I suspect that it is one of the more over-estimated impacts.

 

I will not comment on the turkeys because I am not a serious turkey hunter and have not ever taken that big of an interest in them.

[Curmudgeon]

The key of AT's that resonates is that some people miss how important habitat is and think that killing predators solves a problem of too little game. That's why I put those ideas out there.

 

With good habitat, natural predators are not a problem for native game populations. Predator numbers are self limiting. If you want unnatural numbers of game, or, if dumb game farm birds are put out for a period of time, then predators may seem a problem for you.

 

This self limiting nature of predator populations is less true with coyotes because of their versatility. They can make a living on prey ranging in size from mice to deer. They are omnivorous. The idea that you can kill coyotes and help deer and other game populations is too simple. It results from not understanding that coyote numbers cannot be controlled - except in a controlled situation (enclosure), or with such an output of energy that it becomes silly and exhausting.

 

There are things we can and cannot control. If you own property - and even if you have a long term lease - you have an opportunity to improve habitat. You may be able to do habitat improvement on public land in places.

 

The closed canopy Forest Preserve of the Dacks is no longer deer habitat. It is moose habitat.

[G-Man]

1. A

2. b

3. C

4. Habitat

Severe winters

Predators

Human interference. ..

[Four Season Whitetail's]

The key of AT's that resonates is that some people miss how important habitat is and think that killing predators solves a problem of too little game. That's why I put those ideas out there.

 

With good habitat, natural predators are not a problem for native game populations. Predator numbers are self limiting. If you want unnatural numbers of game, or, if dumb game farm birds are put out for a period of time, then predators may seem a problem for you.

 

This self limiting nature of predator populations is less true with coyotes because of their versatility. They can make a living on prey ranging in size from mice to deer. They are omnivorous. The idea that you can kill coyotes and help deer and other game populations is too simple. It results from not understanding that coyote numbers cannot be controlled - except in a controlled situation (enclosure), or with such an output of energy that it becomes silly and exhausting.

 

There are things we can and cannot control. If you own property - and even if you have a long term lease - you have an opportunity to improve habitat. You may be able to do habitat improvement on public land in places.

 

The closed canopy Forest Preserve of the Dacks is no longer deer habitat. It is moose habitat.

You sure are right on the habitat that man can make or break a piece of land but i bet the dead coyotes that have been controlled in this area wish you were right on that one. The hundreds that have been killed must have been enough proof to the one's that are still alive to find a new place to scratch out a living. The one that didnt take heed and got a little close to what she thought may be breakfast has been controlled also.

 

If what we have now is a normal amount of dogs compared to what we had just 3 short years ago then control wont be much needed but by killing 100's of anything i would have to say you are having some kind of control. They sure have had plenty of time to repopulate themselves if what the white coats say is fact so i, atleast if my part of the world say..Hogwash.. to that!

Edited April 30, 2015 by Four Season Whitetails

[Curmudgeon]

You sure are right on the habitat that man can make or break a piece of land but i bet the dead coyotes that have been controlled in this area wish you were right on that one. The hundreds that have been killed must have been enough proof to the one's that are still alive to find a new place to scratch out a living. The one that didnt take heed and got a little close to what she thought may be breakfast has been controlled also.

 

If what we have now is a normal amount of dogs compared to what we had just 3 short years ago then control wont be much needed but by killing 100's of anything i would have to say you are having some kind of control. They sure have had plenty of time to repopulate themselves if what the white coats say is fact so i, atleast if my part of the world say..Hogwash.. to that!

 

What is it called when you do the same thing over and over and expect a different result?

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

What is it called when you do the same thing over and over and expect a different result?

 

One can call it what they will. Not many things that cant be controlled by man!

[ATbuckhunter]

Doc- I agree with everything you said! Predator control is important AFTER you have good habitat and herd management. I suggest that people look up growing deer TV. That guy is an amazing wildlife biologist and took a tract if unproductive land and made it into a trophy property. Some very useful tips from that man if you take the time to watch him.

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[Doc]

Unfortunately, it is a fact that the hey-day of great whitetail habitat left us as the small family farm unit began to disappear. We went through a marvelous habitat change which could be called transitional as farms went out of production and turned old cropland into specialized deer-productive browse-land. Fields morphed into sparse brush lands, and created tailor-made habitat for deer and populations boomed from the change. We will never see that transitional habitat again .... ever. A relative insignificant few will try to build individual parcels of improved habitat but almost all of the wild land will experience maturation with canopies elevating far beyond useable reach. It's happening already. The rest of the land will experience increasing development and non-deer-friendly land uses.

 

So we all agree that prime specialized habitat is what is needed to maximize herd sizes. But we also have to recognize things that are beyond our control. Habitat quality on an over-all state level is one of those things. And so we have to get used to the idea that herd sizes must be held at increasingly shrinking levels because of this. It's unhappy, but our best whitetail years are behind us and really will never return.

[growalot]

Man I must be living in a sheltered part of the state..

 

For My land is teaming with all kinds of native plants and wildlife...We have all kind of amphibians...wild flowers and herbs..... every kind of berry...trees of every sort...just not wht oak...... I can't walk my ground that I'm not dodging red newts and hellbenders...even the occasional pygmy rattler...... all types of mammals and raptor..owls..game birds ..and wild flowers. I work the wood lots and plant many small areas....I have seen added things like pheasant and fishers move in...more bald eagle fly over...the porcupine sighting have increased and we are now near over run by rabbits. The deer and turkey are abundant and every once in a while I get wood ducks and mallards visiting the wet area along with those crazy looking woodcocks Our neighbors pond gets the breeding geese....Only decline we have seen are the grouse. But they were so plentiful a few years ago you'd be given heart attacks as you nearly stepped on them walking the woods.

My hunting has gotten better over the years with the exception of localized movement changes some years

Edited April 30, 2015 by growalot

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Man I must be living in a sheltered part of the state..

 

For My land is teaming with all kinds of native plants and wildlife...We have all kind of amphibians...wild flowers and herbs..... every kind of berry...trees of every sort...just not wht oak...... I can't walk my ground that I'm not dodging red newts and hellbenders...even the occasional pygmy rattler...... all types of mammals and raptor..owls..game birds ..and wild flowers. I work the wood lots and plant many small areas....I have seen added things like pheasant and fishers move in...more bald eagle fly over...the porcupine sighting have increased and we are now near over run by rabbits. The deer and turkey are abundant and every once in a while I get wood ducks and mallards visiting the wet area along with those crazy looking woodcocks Our neighbors pond gets the breeding geese....Only decline we have seen are the grouse. But they were so plentiful a few years ago you'd be given heart attacks as you nearly stepped on them walking the woods.

My hunting has gotten better over the years with the exception of localized movement changes some years

Yuo are not alone.Treat it like you should and get rid of the undesirables on your property and manage the wildlife by your thoughts and beliefs and you will have a wildlife galore.

[Doc]

Habitat is all local, and is on its own timeline, but all heading in the same direction. In my area, we are on marginal farmland and so the loss of small family farms happened decades ago, and there are other areas of the state that are even farther ahead than we are. And yes there are others who are living that perfect transitional stage of habitat progression right now. And of course there are active farming areas that consist of the large corporate type farms (not the best critter habitat). But it is all a matter of time. They are all heading for the same fate of maturation and development. And like I said, it will never go back in the other direction.