Make deer drives illegal?

[Caveman]

I know enforcement is not realistic but here's something I've noticed. 

It seems every time a hunter is shot it is the result of mis-identification on a deer drive.  Driving deer results in hunters who attempt snap shots on moving targets  and often don't have the ability to adequately identify their target.  They hear a noise coming through the woods and pull up and shoot.  Too often it is a member of their party or another hunter in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Now we all know a person should never touch the trigger until he is positive of his target and beyond.  However. as my father says, you can't make people smarter. 

So although enforcement is unrealistic how would people feel about outlawing this method of "hunting"

[Localqdm]

We don't drive anymore for a few reasons, but safety is one.  A lot of times you just really can't predict where they will go.  If you've got a new or inexperienced/undisciplined hunter in the group it can be deadly. 

We seem to wound a lot less deer now.  Drives often result in running shots where deer can end up wounded, travel long distances and die slow deaths unrecovered.

But some people are good at it and its the way they hunt.  I 've learned to be pretty picky of where I hunt and with who, though.  Usually I won't hunt with a group doing drives.  Where could you draw the line?  If someone still hunts to another hunter, its kind of the same thing.

[Paulie]

I don't think its the driving...its stupid people! People who shouldn't be in the woods in the first place! I don't do much driving anymore just due to the land I hunt. However when and if I do, I have full trust in the people I hunt with....otherwise I wouldn't be hunting with them. I make sure the people I hunt with share the same standards, saftey considerations and ethics...so I trust them fully.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

you can't fix stupid! and no law change will make these fols that don't identify their target any safer.

I have participated in drives and over the years they have been very productive and very safe for us. We don't do it much anymore...more of a still hunt to guys still on watch kind of thing now. I am not for imposing any more regulations and trying to legislate to majority for the inability of the stupid few.

What I think needs to happen is these clowns that shoot other unters should be strung up and do some serious jail time. Then ehy MIGHT think about what they are doing. I would think their mourning and remorse would be a big weight on them but if they aren't smart or moral enough to exercise the required caution they probably are not affected as much as they should be by their actions.

The problem is the "hunters" themselves that do the shooting and to some extent the group they are hunting with. ou know the guys you are hunting with...or should...and they chose to include a clown like this in their group. We must police ourselves.

Driving game is a very old and proven method and tradition. It has been done safely for hundreds of years. Changing the laws due to the actions of a few is just not right. We all see stupid drivers...agressive making unsafe lane changes...not leaving proper distances...drinking and driving. Bicycles and walking are far safer and if there is an accident doing one of those they are far less serious. Do we legislate that cars be removed from the roads?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I don't think its the driving...its stupid people! People who shouldn't be in the woods in the first place! I don't do much driving anymore just due to the land I hunt. However when and if I do, I have full trust in the people I hunt with....otherwise I wouldn't be hunting with them. I make sure the people I hunt with share the same standards, saftey considerations and ethics...so I trust them fully.

And I am betting if you do include a new person in the group...friend....child becoming a hunter....They are instructed on what is acceptable and you put those people in the watches with the least possibility of a shooting incident'.

[Localqdm]

I don't want to see a ton of red tape either.  But I have hunted with others who grow up doing these drives unsafe and don't know any other way to hunt.  These guys recruit others to hunt with them and the craziness breeds itself.  This isn't isolated instances, we all know people like this.  I went with some people once and was placed on a clear cut looking up the hill and down to the road.  Someone was to be walking toward me over the hill and my only two shots were up over the crest of the hill or straight down to the road below.  I watched a doe run by me at 40mph.  When the guys showed up they razed me over why I didn't shoot.  I will never hunt with them again.  This is a place they have hunted for years and that is how they do it.  Sad.  So you can call people stupid or whatever, but at the end of the day, when it happens someones dead and it is sad.  And its not always trigger happy Rambos to blame, especially if they were taught by a generation like I described.

I think the hunters Ed system is a lot better today than it was when some of these guys started, and handed down their ways.  So I'm sure that the education today is helping.  Maybe there should be a greater emphasis on "drives" in the course?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

  When the guys showed up they razed me over why I didn't shoot.  I will never hunt with them again.  This is a place they have hunted for years and that is how they do it.

Not to bust your chops....but did you confront them on how they set up teh drive and why they would accept that as a safe shot?.

The biggest part of my post and I probably dind't make it clear, is we need to police the ones we hunt with. If you see someone doing somethign stupid....call them on it...question them.

Then toss them to the curb...lol

[WNYBuckHunter]

you can't fix stupid! and no law change will make these fols that don't identify their target any safer.

I have participated in drives and over the years they have been very productive and very safe for us. We don't do it much anymore...more of a still hunt to guys still on watch kind of thing now. I am not for imposing any more regulations and trying to legislate to majority for the inability of the stupid few.

What I think needs to happen is these clowns that shoot other unters should be strung up and do some serious jail time. Then ehy MIGHT think about what they are doing. I would think their mourning and remorse would be a big weight on them but if they aren't smart or moral enough to exercise the required caution they probably are not affected as much as they should be by their actions.

The problem is the "hunters" themselves that do the shooting and to some extent the group they are hunting with. ou know the guys you are hunting with...or should...and they chose to include a clown like this in their group. We must police ourselves.

Driving game is a very old and proven method and tradition. It has been done safely for hundreds of years. Changing the laws due to the actions of a few is just not right. We all see stupid drivers...agressive making unsafe lane changes...not leaving proper distances...drinking and driving. Bicycles and walking are far safer and if there is an accident doing one of those they are far less serious. Do we legislate that cars be removed from the roads?

Couldnt be said better

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I even have a better analogy-----I am betting there were as many deaths and probably more injuries due to treestand accidents. Won't know til final numbers come out.

Do we legislate and ban the use of treestands?

[Fantail]

..snip..

So although enforcement is unrealistic how would people feel about outlawing this method of "hunting"

I think most people are smart enough to know drives would be done anyway. I don't see alot of difference in a planned drive, or simply taking advantage of a position when knowing other hunters are moving in / out of the woods.

[Caveman]

While I understand the resistance to the red tape.  I myself am not in favor of legislation, just something to get a discussion going.  But your theory of jailtime for those involved in "accidents" would not be a great solution either.  Studies show that prison is not an effective deterrent for crime and while it makes us feel good to advocate for retribution, we need to weigh the costs and benefits. 

Benefit: We feel good about it

Cost: Money to incarcerate, money to have trial, offender unable to find job upon release, cost to support his family while imprisoned, increased recidivism rate due to lack of legitimate means of income post-release, etc.

I could go on for hours.  The point is prison is not the answer.  Again I'm not in favor of such a law, I'm just starting a discussion.

I do like the police ourselves aspect.  That's a good place to start.

[nycoyotehounds..BUB]

I would not like to see that law.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Cost: Money to incarcerate, money to have trial, offender unable to find job upon release, cost to support his family while imprisoned, increased recidivism rate due to lack of legitimate means of income post-release, etc.

And that is a topic for another thread. I would agree that the costs are high and they shouldn't be. the counrtryclubs we are building and the amenities that are afforded the prisioners are crazy. I really believe we need to go back to the cahin gangs and license plate factories. I think it is in Michican there is a precast concrete company that specializes in making prison cells....know who the labor is.....the prisoners....now that really gives me a warm fuzzy

[RPIBuckHunter]

I'll start off by saying I don't drive deer.

However, I don't believe it should be illegal.  I'm generally against the government nitpicking on these aspects of people's lives-such as how they hunt.  I believe people should have the freedom to hunt how they want, and this includes the freedom to be stupid.

[Caveman]

There's a benefit of AR I'm willing to bet a lot of people hadn't thought of.  I'd be curious to see the statistics of hunting accidents in states with mandatory AR vs. accidents in those states without AR

[sampotter]

I tried that argument for AR's in the AR thread a few months ago. makes sense, but I was bombarded with "elitist" labels and accused of using safety as a way to twist ARs, but I'm pretty sure most 9year-old boys don't have 3pts on one side...

Deer drives suck by the way. I have a friend north of me that lets me hunt his 300 acres. On opening day of shotgun I watched 20 deer trickle into a 5 acre patch of brush. I hunted them lightly from the fringes all season. They stayed put the whole time. I went up there last weekend with my dad and a friend to find that some neighbors had begged to be able to drive the property- and were allowed to, with the exception that they were supposed to stay out of that particular spot. They drove it anyway- pushing out 7-10 deer. Blood trails and gut piles everywhere. Hell of a way to end my season. These were the same guys that had pushed all of the deer off of their property on opening day. My friend saw one of the guys standing in the 2-lane state road lining up on a deer as it crossed. He regret s letting those a-holes in there now.

And hunters that do drives wonder why they stop seeing deer after opening day...

[HectorBuckBuster]

Well I do alot of still hunting by myself, but we also have a small group of us that do alot of deer drives. The only time we have every had a problem doing a drive with some idiot shooting back into the drive was when it was a friends dads, co-worker. After that happened we said we are done with you guys, and started a tight group of buddies. We get alot of bucks during the season, and pretty much could fill every DMP if we wanted to. We love being out there seeing deer.We do pass up shooting alot of the deer.Also if someone in our group has not gotten a deer, or just some bad luck, we have no problem putting that person on watch to get a chance at a deer. There is nothing wrong with deer drives if they are planned out, and everyone knows where everyone else is.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I know some people will disagree with this but wouldn't AR's make people identify their targets alot better because they have to know if the deer they are shooting at is a legal one to take? Now I'm not for or against AR because there are too many variables involved but I do practice a little restraint myself, and I hunt public land. If you had to make sure the deer you were shooting at had 4 points on a side you would not be taking snap shots at running deer.

I really think you are giving the dopes that shoot others too much credit. If the possibility of shooting a human doesn't get them to exercise proper safety  and restraint, do you honestly believe an AR would. I am not for AR but let's assume it is in effect. I don't think these same guys would be impacted by it at all. I have not witnessed it myself but have heard stories from guys I trust about coming across deer in PA that were dropped in their tracks and left because they didn't me the AR's. I am betting these are the same type of guys that shoot bolts/ arrows and bullets intot he sides of houses...shoot into deer drives and such.

The problem is not the type of hunting it is the mentality of some of the people out there.

[nycoyotehounds..BUB]

I do some drives and like them. never seen a problem with driving deer off the land.

[cprsailor]

The same people who are shooting towards movement or sound are the same ones who will shoot first and count antlers later. You can't legislate common sense.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The same people who are shooting towards movement or sound are the same ones who will shoot first and count antlers later. You can't legislate common sense.

A+++++

[HectorBuckBuster]

We where doing a small drive on some state land and I was walking to a spot to watch and had another hunter come up to me and tell me in a rude kind of way that there are two other hunters over the hill near the hedgerow.I said thanks, but NY does not issue tags for people as I am hunting deer they will be safe. He did not think I was funny.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

We where doing a small drive on some state land and I was walking to a spot to watch and had another hunter come up to me and tell me in a rude kind of way that there are two other hunters over the hill near the hedgerow.I said thanks, but NY does not issue tags for people as I am hunting deer they will be safe. He did not think I was funny.

should have really cleared him out buy saying not to worry it has been 2 seasons since you got one...lol.

I have come across hunters in the process of begining a drive or going on watch. I have told them what we were doing and how and never had a problem ....they usually just turned around and watched. some even took deer, especially the ones that were at teh start of the drives. those old smart ones like to go back throught the drivers

[HectorBuckBuster]

I am going to have to put that line in my head to use next time. LOL that is funny ;D 

[Paulie]

Culver.....to answer your earlier questions....if we bring in someone new we would put them on watch with someone in the group that is experience (not by themselves)...

The scary thing here is that this is not rocket science but I guess some lack common sense...we all should know NEVER to:

Shoot over the crest of a hill

Shoot into a drive

Shoot at "something" unless you are 100% sure of target and background

I mean really...a driver or the drive is going to be coming from one direction, wait until the deer get past you and are moving away from the drivers before you shoot...what the hell is so hard about that??