12 year old shot dead by playmate

[WNYBuckHunter]

Wow, look what I missed today lol.

I honestly dont care what anyone says about the way I have things in my house. The way it is here, is that my handgun is easily accessible to me at all times, unless we have company that includes kids, then the gun goes into a safe area. When my gun is out, it has a full clip, but not one in the chamber. There would be no way my daughter or any small kid could chamber a round in the gun, and the pinch safety would make it next to impossible for a kid with small hands to fire it easily. My daughter is being raised with guns, she knows what they do and is not curious about them at all. She goes out with me to shoot and sits with me when I clean them and I teach her about the different parts, safe handling and what to do if she sees a gun. She has gotten to shoot in the past and will probably be getting her first BB gun for her birthday this year. I have very little worry about her not being safe with and around guns. I firmly believe that anyone that owns guns should teach their kids in the same way, and if they did, these pretty rare cases would become even more uncommon.

[bubba]

You really didn't miss much. I got wound up and carried away.  I guess when you are passionate about something, you want i tknown.  There is no reason for new laws which move us closer to having no guns. 

[nyantler]

Man, I hear that Bubba.. I know I come off that way too.. but if you know me I'm not the kind to fly off the handle easily... just a bit loud when I'm trying to get a point across... 

[RPIBuckHunter]

Or maybe the kid should have been taught about guns early and reminded often, so as to curb the curiosity of them. Like anything else, early education is key with guns. Having a handgun for protection isnt going to work too well if its locked up at all times.

Antis havent been waiting for this to happen, it happens across the country every year due to irresponsible people.

You hit it right on the head.  This happened only a few miles from me, and the  anti gun crowd has been having a field day with it.  My first thought was, 'why had the son of the gun owner, or both boys for that matter, not been educated on proper gun safety?'

By the time I was that age, I had already been taught proper gun safety...

[Mr VJP]

I don't know why you're all thinking the kid had not been properly instructed on gun safety.  That is pure assumption.  Kids do not always do what they are told.  Many teenagers do lots of things they know are wrong in order to be popular and cool  They smoke cigarettes, drag race, drive drunk, have unprotected sex, do drugs, and commit suicide.  All of which they have been taught not to do and know is wrong.

How do you know a child won't decide to use a gun on them self someday?  It happens.

I have yet to hear of a single case of a child being shot because he was able to break into a handgun box and get to it in the first place.  I'm NOT for new laws. I hate them.  BUT the reason we get new laws is because people are not smart enough to avoid tragedies like this with a little common sense.

If it keeps happening, you will see a new law to prevent it.  We get these type of laws because we deserve them!  To advise people to keep a loaded gun out where kids can get to them, especially when the gun owner is not home, rather than locking them in a handgun safe that takes 2 seconds to open, is advising perpetuation of preventable disasters.

The only thing that gives the government the power to regulate anything, is public outrage at the irresponsible use of it.

[bubba]

If th ekid had been properly trained, the gun would not have been pointed at the other kid.  If the kid had been properly trained, even if he touched the gun, he would have checked and cleared it. If the kid had been properly trained, he would not have touched the gun unsupervised.  Seems like a no brainer to me since he did not do any of the things mentioned. 

[Mr VJP]

All of the above are pure assumption based on a perfect world scenario.

If the gun had been locked up, the kid would never have been able to touch it.

[bubba]

ok how do you know it wasnt locked up and the kid go to it.  With no facts, you are assuming also.

[RPIBuckHunter]

If th ekid had been properly trained, the gun would not have been pointed at the other kid.  If the kid had been properly trained, even if he touched the gun, he would have checked and cleared it. If the kid had been properly trained, he would not have touched the gun unsupervised.  Seems like a no brainer to me since he did not do any of the things mentioned.

I agree 100%.

Kids do not always do what they are told.  Many teenagers do lots of things they know are wrong in order to be popular and cool  They smoke cigarettes, drag race, drive drunk, have unprotected sex, do drugs, and commit suicide.  All of which they have been taught not to do and know is wrong.

Well, it's been a couple years since I was legally a kid and a couple months since I still fit the description of teenager, but I don't think things have changed that much since that time.  You paint a broad brush over all youngsters with this statement, and I really feel like it's simply untrue. We say 'most kids like to rebel', but I feel the only reason we have that sterotype is because that is what is seen on the news.  I really do feel like most kids are good people.  As I stated earlier, I was taught gun safety from an early (before 12) age, and I knew how to check that they were unloaded, point in a safe direction, and not to touch without supervision.  I did have access to the guns, but it never occurred to me in all those years of playdates to take any guns out to 'show them off', because I knew there would be hell to pay if I did.

I never did any of that other stuff you mention either.  I broke curfew once, by half an hour, and there was hell to pay.  I certainly wasn't going to do anything more serious after that.

So yes, I do blame the parents for not properly educating the children.

[Mr VJP]

Cisco, I said many teenagers.  Not all teenagers.  So your statement saying I'm painting all teenagers with a broad brush is inaccurate.  Wait until you have kids to decide if what I have said is true or not.  I know in my own relatives kids, as well as my friends kids, they do these things, and quite often at that.  And I do not blame their parents as they did everything they could to "educate" them.

I personally know of two kids who were fully trained in gun safety, hunter safety and proper firearm handling in every respect, yet they chose to use their father's gun to kill themselves.  The guns were never locked up and one of the Dads was a cop.  I know of many more kids who were fully trained as well but were caught by their parents handling the guns when they were home alone.

How do I know the above 12 year old kid didn't get a gun from a locked box?  Because if he did, the parents wouldn't be in hot water, as they would've done everything reasonably possible to prevent the tragedy and would be exonerated.

[Mr VJP]

  Dammit!!  Another one in TN.

12-year-old girl shot by playmate    http://wkrn.images.worldnow.com/images/8611124_BG1.jpg[/img]Enlarge this picture  http://wkrn.images.worldnow.com/images/8611124_BG2.jpg[/img]Enlarge this picture  http://wkrn.images.worldnow.com/images/8611124_BG3.jpg[/img]Enlarge this picture       

              A 12-year-old girl remains in critical condition after police said she was shot in the head by her 11-year-old playmate.

The boy is now in juvenile detention, charged with aggravated assault.

The shooting occurred around 11:45 a.m. Wednesday on Mable Drive in the Lake Forest Estates subdivision in LaVergne.

Police said three children were in the home alone when the 11-year-old found a pistol.

Investigators said he deliberately pointed the gun at the victim, and the girl was afraid, making the shooting not "accidental."

Police said one of the children called 911.  No parents were at home at the time of shooting.

"Adults  leave their guns available to kids, and when they get curious or for  whatever reason we end up having a shooting," said LaVergne Police  Chief Ted Boyd.

"This is a tragedy that  could have been prevented just by simply using one of these locks,"  Boyd continued, holding up a gun lock that the department gives out for  free.

The parents of the 11-year-old shooter have not yet been charged.

The girl was last listed in critical condition at Vanderbilt Children's Hospital.

[Mr VJP]

More on the Wilton, NY case.

http://capitalregion.ynn.com/content/top_stories/527812/12-year-old-dies-after-accidentally-shot-by-friend/

[First-light]

To have a loaded gun in the house not locked up is simply irresponsible, especially when children are present. All the training in the world won't help these situations, kids are curious creatures.

[RPIBuckHunter]

To have a loaded gun in the house not locked up is simply irresponsible, especially when children are present. All the training in the world won't help these situations, kids are curious creatures.

I don't necessarily agree with this.  However, I will say that if you have a loaded gun in the house, it better be on your person or very near to it at all times.  If some whackjob busts into your home while your watching T.V. in the den, the loaded pistol upstairs in your bedroom isn't going to do jack s*it for you...

@Mr. VJP:  The language in that case from TN is especially disturbing to me.  The boy 'found' the pistol, implying that he didn't know it was there beforehand.  This is the worst type of situation, I feel.  Having a 'hiding spot' and just 'hoping' that your children don't find it DOES NOT work.

[Mr VJP]

I do not think the parents of the dead boy in Wilton, NY can be blamed in any way for  any part of this tragedy.  People that do not own guns, and don't  believe in owning them, can not be expected to teach their children  anything other than to stay away from them.  They do not have the  knowledge to teach their kids gun safety anyway.

About all they  could have done is ask the friends parents if they had a gun in the  house and then told their son he couldn't go over there.

The  parents of the kid who did the shooting can be held responsible for the  death for many reasons.  They left an unsupervised child at home with a  loaded, unlocked gun, that was easily accessible, and they never taught  their kid not to touch it.  That is a recipe for disaster and they  should be charged with everything the law can charge them with.

The  poor father of the dead boy can not be criticized for anything he  thinks now, as his judgment is going to be biased.  Even if a list of  gun owners was available, which it most definitely should not be, the  father probably wouldn't have looked into it anyway.

Unless gun  owners understand owning a gun comes with the huge responsibility of  life and death at all times, these things will happen and all gun  owners will be judged by it.  The owner of any firearm must understand,  the security of that firearm is their responsibility at all times.  If  it is locked away and someone breaks into the safe, or it gets stolen  and used in a crime, the owner did everything reasonably expected of  him to prevent it.  But if it's loaded and available to an unsupervised  child, it's not a defensible position from any point of view.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I personally know of two kids who were fully trained in gun safety, hunter safety and proper firearm handling in every respect, yet they chose to use their father's gun to kill themselves.  The guns were never locked up and one of the Dads was a cop.  I know of many more kids who were fully trained as well but were caught by their parents handling the guns when they were home alone.

Im sorry for whomevers loss in those two incidents, but to cite such a thing as someone committing suicide as a reason to keep a gun under lock and key is ludicrous. If someone is intent on committing suicide, they are going to get the job done or make a serious attempt at it no matter how many locks you have on your guns. They will just do it another way. To lay blame on anyone for not locking their guns as the cause of those two kids killing themselves is completely out of line.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The  parents of the kid who did the shooting can be held responsible for the  death for many reasons.  They left an unsupervised child at home with a  loaded, unlocked gun, that was easily accessible, and they never taught  their kid not to touch it.  That is a recipe for disaster and they  should be charged with everything the law can charge them with.

Werent you talking about someone else assuming earlier in the thread? This quote sounds like a whole lot of assumption on your part. 

[First-light]

I do not think the parents of the dead boy in Wilton, NY can be blamed in any way for  any part of this tragedy.  People that do not own guns, and don't  believe in owning them, can not be expected to teach their children  anything other than to stay away from them.  They do not have the  knowledge to teach their kids gun safety anyway.

About all they  could have done is ask the friends parents if they had a gun in the  house and then told their son he couldn't go over there.

The  parents of the kid who did the shooting can be held responsible for the  death for many reasons.  They left an unsupervised child at home with a  loaded, unlocked gun, that was easily accessible, and they never taught  their kid not to touch it.  That is a recipe for disaster and they  should be charged with everything the law can charge them with.

The  poor father of the dead boy can not be criticized for anything he  thinks now, as his judgment is going to be biased.  Even if a list of  gun owners was available, which it most definitely should not be, the  father probably wouldn't have looked into it anyway.

Unless gun  owners understand owning a gun comes with the huge responsibility of  life and death at all times, these things will happen and all gun  owners will be judged by it.  The owner of any firearm must understand,  the security of that firearm is their responsibility at all times.  If  it is locked away and someone breaks into the safe, or it gets stolen  and used in a crime, the owner did everything reasonably expected of  him to prevent it.  But if it's loaded and available to an unsupervised  child, it's not a defensible position from any point of view.

I agree with you, Good points, VJP.

To bluntly put it, what are the odds of you getting to your loaded gun to use it to defend yourself? What are the odds of someone breaking into your house in a case you would need the gun? What are the odds that two unsupervised children find your unsecured loaded weapon in your home?

For me it's a game I don't want to play.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I personally know of two kids who were fully trained in gun safety, hunter safety and proper firearm handling in every respect, yet they chose to use their father's gun to kill themselves.  The guns were never locked up and one of the Dads was a cop.

Their problem was NOT gun storage and from personal experience the kids would have found another way to kill them selves if they we wrapped in bubble wrap and locked in a room.

My daughter has been around guns, shot them and handled them since whe was 5. I have an accessible gun in my house but out of the reach of any small children. It is loaded but not chambered.

I got involved in stuff just like any kid growing up but one thing I KNEW...if I touched any of our guns without my Faters permission  I would have gotten my arm broken and a foot up my A$$.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I agree with you, Good points, VJP.

To bluntly put it, what are the odds of you getting to your loaded gun to use it to defend yourself? What are the odds of someone breaking into your house in a case you would need the gun? What are the odds that two unsupervised children find your unsecured loaded weapon in your home?

For me it's a game I don't want to play.

I am not sure of the numbers but I would be willing to bet the number of cases of armed home invasion that either result in rape...murder...or robbery...are more than accidental shootings involving children with unsecured firearms....wht are the odds?...not sure but I know where my money is going.

  I am sad that any child had their life ended...and I know I will take the heat for this but it needs to be said.

I don't care about this kid....or the child that shot them...or really any of your kids ....I AM concerned with mine. and if anyone comes into my house with bad intentions I will not be looking for a gun and rounds.

[Mr VJP]

If a kid commits suicide with your gun, it puts you in trouble and makes all gun owners look bad.  Better they did it another way if they are hell bent on doing it.  Do you really want to be part of the investigation into the cause of a kid's suicide?  We also don't know if they would've done it if it was harder for them to do it.

Like I've said before, a good handgun lock box can be opened in 2 seconds if needed, but prevents any unauthorized possession.  If you are at home, you can keep a gun on you all the time.  But to leave it out and loaded when you are not home seems irresponsible to me.

WNY, that other post wasn't about assumptions.  Its' based on more information that has been released on the circumstances involved with that case.

[WNYBuckHunter]

How does a kid committing suicide with your gun put you in any trouble?

Granted, it may make you feel bad, but the simple fact is that unless you put someone bent on killing themselves in a padded rubber room with a straight jacket on, they will find a way to do it.

An assumption based on partial fact is still an assumption. 

[First-light]

I agree with you, Good points, VJP.

To bluntly put it, what are the odds of you getting to your loaded gun to use it to defend yourself? What are the odds of someone breaking into your house in a case you would need the gun? What are the odds that two unsupervised children find your unsecured loaded weapon in your home?

For me it's a game I don't want to play.

I am not sure of the numbers but I would be willing to bet the number of cases of armed home invasion that either result in rape...murder...or robbery...are more than accidental shootings involving children with unsecured firearms....wht are the odds?...not sure but I know where my money is going.

  I am sad that any child had their life ended...and I know I will take the heat for this but it needs to be said.

I don't care about this kid....or the child that shot them...or really any of your kids ....I AM concerned with mine. and if anyone comes into my house with bad intentions I will not be looking for a gun and rounds.

I understand what your saying, look at the home invasion in Connecticut, it sums it up.

I'm sure you do care about other children. Do you let the parents of children coming to your house know that there is a loaded unlocked gun in the house?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Burt,

To be honest I do care.....not my biggest concern...that resides at home in my daughter. I have a long closet in my bedroom. The kind with the 4' sliding doors that pass each other. it is on mounts on the blind side above the door. Unless you know it is there...never come across it by accident. I am 6'4" aand can just grab the receiver so I know it poses no danger to a child.

I really wonder and can't tell from the stories I have read on this ....where the parents were that lived there. The story made it sound like the kids were out in the yard with the gun....."ran back in the house to call 911". So society could get the whole story I would love to be a fly on the wall and see just what type of households these were. I don't care if it is drugs....teen pregnancy...guns.....pic an ill....It really does start at home.

[Mr VJP]

WNY, if anyone uses your gun to do anything, you will be under investigation by the law to determine if you committed any crime.  I don't know what the laws in NY are, but in many states you would have broken the law.

But let's say you did not break any law.  The state lets you off the hook, but the family of the victim can sue you for negligence in a civil suit.  The burden of proof in civil cases is much less than in a criminal case.  I don't think you would win the case.  If you don't believe me, check it out for yourself with your attorney.

Like I said, owning a firearm carries huge responsibilities.  It's best to know what they are before you get in trouble.