NYON, CWD & urine based scents

[nyslowhand]

Anyone see this small article in the latest issue of NYON? Apparently NYS is looking at what PA is attempting to do, introduce legislation to prohibit the use of all (doe & buck) urine based scents. The unverified claim is that it could possibly spread CWD. Think we have a resident deer farmer, so maybe he/she could chime in. Thought all captive deer were tested for CWD by the DEC..? My dumb question is; If the donor (deer) of the urine is verified CWD free, how in the world can it be transmitted from a drag-line or scent wick?? Seems to be yet another "knee-jerk" legislation with NO factual basis! Regardless of whether you think these scents work or not, what's your opinion of the legislation?

 

Feel bad for the small time, local gentleman that has a few deer and tries to make a living off the sales of these urine based scents!

 

 

[growalot]

The artifical stuff out there now will just fill the gap. The possible lowering of deer farms would fit right into some state plans and anti's dreams...Can't say I'd cry anymore for the gentlemen with a small herd going under than I would for a Ostrich/ emu or Llama farm going under...they are speculation farms IMO

 

PS....WTDA not directed at you...we're talking urine collection here  and the meat market is still limited...it's still an "exotic" meat and ranging between 9 and 50 dollars a pound...well I'm not seeing where Micky D's will be offering it soon....

Edited December 11, 2015 by growalot

[Doc]

The artifical stuff out there now will just fill the gap. The possible lowering of deer farms would fit right into some state plans and anti's dreams...Can't say I'd cry anymore for the gentlemen with a small herd going under than I would for a Ostrich/ emu or Llama farm going under...they are speculation farms IMO

One big difference between the ostrich/emu/llama farms and the deer farms is that in one case it is legitimate market forces that might cause their demise and in this case it is the government putting them out of business based on some rather questionable science (more like a hunch)...... Unless there is some major break-thru in the research on CWD that I am not aware of.

[growalot]

In their minds...and lets be honest...we've seen how their minds work. It's not a "hunch" it's being pro active. Saving resources and funds down the road from possible "clean ups", as it were. It's lowering one more thing that needs oversite in their minds...while getting lobbyists off their backs...IMO

[growalot]

 

.WTDA

So that was suppose to be FSWT...I have no idea what WTDA is...hahaha

[WNYBuckHunter]

As far as I know, there is no way to test deer for CWD without killing them, so the deer at farms are not tested unless they die.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

So that was suppose to be FSWT...I have no idea what WTDA is...hahaha

LOL..I was wondering what that was???

 

First off all they are doing is asking for more lawsuits headed their way. They cant shut them down but they can give more rules.

There has Never,Ever,Ever,Ever been a deer found dead or alive with the CWD prion found in its urine. Ever!  Even postive node and brain whitetails did not have the prion in their urine.  The white coats do their testing by taking the CWD prion and injecting it into whitetail urine and then stick that crap into a mouse and see if he becomes positive. Well DUH...Ya think he will?

 

They, after 50 plus years cant tell you with any facts that whitetails have the prions in their urine because its never been found.

 

As far as testing...We have to Tb test every 3 years with a test that is only 75-80% accurate and the states accept that BUT they have a CWD live test that is 85-90% accurate and they wont accept that as testing?  Hmmm makes ya think huh.  

 

Politics at its best. Ny is a closed border state meaning no deer can come in so in fact any farm that has CWD would have shown in the last 3 years. Now if you talk wild deer...Well we all know its already in Ny state and if they tested more than 1/2 of 1% of harvested deer they would find it.  Tell me it has not walked in from Pa and i will tell ya you are smoking something.  and to share of course!

 

Now for the ones that think the fake stuff is as good as the real..Not even close. If someone wants to Pm me a phone number and they know how to put video up on here, send it along and i will show you a buck from this year, one of many little guys, that shows how a buck should react to doe in heat scent!

[nyslowhand]

......Can't say I'd cry anymore for the gentlemen with a small herd going under than I would for a Ostrich/ emu or Llama farm going under...they are speculation farms IMO

Don't get the correlation?? Are those exotic's farms also being shutdown by NYS laws or over regulation? USDA, right?

 

As far as testing...We have to Tb test every 3 years with a test that is only 75-80% accurate and the states accept that BUT they have a CWD live test that is 85-90% accurate and they wont accept that as testing?  Hmmm makes ya think huh. 

What's this, a typing error?  to Tb test every 3 years. Is there an actual TB testing requirement?

 

Not sticking up for the urine based scent industry, just thought this was a pretty bizarre example of the DEC's thought process! AND..NYS' inept legislation at its' best worst!

 

Also in the article, aside from the CWD "arm waving" unverified claims, budgetary considerations were mentioned. WTH are they thinking, if at all???

[Doc]

In their minds...and lets be honest...we've seen how their minds work. It's not a "hunch" it's being pro active. Saving resources and funds down the road from possible "clean ups", as it were. It's lowering one more thing that needs oversite in their minds...while getting lobbyists off their backs...IMO

Yes, that was my point. There seems to be a whole lot of government activity these days that focus on being "proactive" even without any science backing them up. When was it proven that urine transmits CWD?

 

Being proactive has become the code word for "now that we have a panic to work with, let's quick slip all these agenda items through under the guise of being proactive". We see it all the time in the gun control world. My view of all this is that we do not try to put businesses out of business simply based on unproven, unscientific hunches under the pretense of being proactive. That works well as long as we are not the ones being involved in those businesses, but I believe in an individual's right to conduct business until it is proven that such business is harmful..... not guessed that it is harmful.

[mike rossi]

As far as I know, there is no way to test deer for CWD without killing them, so the deer at farms are not tested unless they die.

 

I got into this before, there has been a live test for some time, but it is an invasive procedure. 

 

Check it out: 

 

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/wps/portal/aphis/ourfocus/wildlifedamage/sa_programs/sa_nwrc/sa_spotlight/ct_cwd_jul08/!ut/p/a0/04_Sj9CPykssy0xPLMnMz0vMAfGjzOK9_D2MDJ0MjDzd3V2dDDz93HwCzL29jAwMTfQLsh0VAXWczqE!/

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22914819

[mike rossi]

I want to add to my above post, that the live test is "about as effective" as the post mortum test. Neither test is 100% accurate. So, even if an animal tests negative, there is still some level of risk. Maybe the DEC and PGC are thinking along those lines? Might be a question for the NRA or something like that Cletus. 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2015 by mike rossi

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Don't get the correlation?? Are those exotic's farms also being shutdown by NYS laws or over regulation? USDA, right?

 

What's this, a typing error?  to Tb test every 3 years. Is there an actual TB testing requirement?

 

Not sticking up for the urine based scent industry, just thought this was a pretty bizarre example of the DEC's thought process! AND..NYS' inept legislation at its' best worst!

 

Also in the article, aside from the CWD "arm waving" unverified claims, budgetary considerations were mentioned. WTH are they thinking, if at all???

LOL...No Typo my friend. Every 3 years they have to be either knocked down or ran thru a chute and blood is drawn from the animal. 

 

You should be sticking up for the scent industry if you believe in the american way of life and our rights and freedoms. If there were ever a real issue and problem with CWD i would be the first one to be rid of my animals if they were somehow infected but it has never ever been proven to do any harm to the herds in any state and has never been a threat to man.

The top 5 states in the record books,year in and year out are all CWD positive states. How can this be when CWD was said to be such a killer of mature animals. Not only that but the deer take by hunters in those states have actually risen after CWD came to town. How can this be?

 

Mike, There is nothing more invasive than killing a perfectly healthy deer just to see if it has CWD. That is the states stupid way of doing things while looking for CWD.  There is a blood test on the horizon and that is being funded by the deer farmers across the country. I/We believe the finger has been pointed the wrong way from the jump and in due time it will be proven.

First it was all deer farmers problem and now research shows that CWD prions are being found in Corn and Alfalfa. Is anything being done to stop that spread? No!  You yourself can buy CWD laden corn at your local Tractor Supply store that was harvested in the CWD hotzone of Wisconsin!   Throw that on the ground for your Chicken and goats and you now have CWD positive soil on your property. Now move that mud on your boots to your treestand 50 miles away and that mud falls off..Guess what you just did.   Yup CWD positive soil to be mixed with the local soil and picked up by your local deer herd.   Its a cycle and the only part of the wheel that ever gets broken is the deer farmers part.  Agenda Anyone?

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I want to add to my above post, that the live test is "about as effective" as the post mortum test. Neither test is 100% accurate. So, even if an animal tests negative, there is still some level of risk. Maybe the DEC and PGC are thinking along those lines? Might be a question for the NRA or something like that Cletus. 

Well thats a good one. A positive is positive but a negative may not be?  Just how does that work? 

 

You really think you will get any kind of info from the NRA, about anything that has to do with deer and high fence without massive bias?

You want to throw the QDMA in the mix also. The DEC,NRA and QDMA are just as clueless as the rest except the fact that they have made their agendas known. But thats old news and off subject!

Edited December 12, 2015 by Four Season Whitetails

[Curmudgeon]

I favor the precautionary principle. Prove the urine is safe before using it in the wild.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

I favor the precautionary principle. Prove the urine is safe before using it in the wild.

It has....For 50 plus years! What more ya want?

[growalot]

Posted Today, 02:12 AM

growalot, on 11 Dec 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

......Can't say I'd cry anymore for the gentlemen with a small herd going under than I would for a Ostrich/ emu or Llama farm going under...they are speculation farms IMO

Don't get the correlation?? Are those exotic's farms also being shutdown by NYS laws or over regulation? USDA, right?

 

 

The correlation is these are all niche' or speculation businesses ...they come and go like tides. The Deer industry isn't singled out in having regulations heaped on them as they grow...Do you really think farms that started out with Ostrich and Llamas haven't come under government scrutiny and heaped with regulations? Of course they have...Also lets look at main stream farms ...How many turkey have been slaughtered this year due to an avian flue.? What happened to the beef industry several years ago?....So the OP asked for opinions...this is mine ..Hey, thats business deal with it.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2015 by growalot

[coldwater]

Early detection of chronic wasting disease prions in urine of pre-symptomatic deer by real-time quaking-induced conversion assay.

"We report on detection of CWD prions in urine collected from pre-symptomatic deer and in fecal extracts by using real time quaking-induced conversion (RT-QuIC). "

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23764839

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Early detection of chronic wasting disease prions in urine of pre-symptomatic deer by real-time quaking-induced conversion assay.

"We report on detection of CWD prions in urine collected from pre-symptomatic deer and in fecal extracts by using real time quaking-induced conversion (RT-QuIC). "

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23764839

 

Exactly..Its never been found in whitetail deer urine..And if you read the words.....CWD is MOST LIKELY spread by Urine and Feces!

 

Can you say still clueless after 50 years. You dont ruin people lives on a MOST LIKELY and shut down urine farms when its 100% positive real life tested and true proven that crop farmers are spreading the Prion all across the world without as much as a regulation against them!  Again..Can you say Agenda?

[coldwater]

And if you read the words.....

 

"in CWD prions are shed in urine and feces, which most likely contributes to the horizontal transmission"

 

[Four Season Whitetail's]

And if you read the words.....

 

"in CWD prions are shed in urine and feces, which most likely contributes to the horizontal transmission"

I dont want to hear jack squat about Most likely or What If.s.  After 50 plus years of CWD being around show me the case where CWD prion was found in a farmed or wild whitetail.  I would guess a deer would have to have the prion before it could pass the prion.

 

I have heard enough of what a bunch of white coats think. I want the true facts that the whitetail deer itself proves.. 100% brain and Node tested whitetails still did not carry the prion in their urine.  Up,Down or sideways.   Thats not Most Likely.  Thats Fact!

[coldwater]

One last time:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0004848

 

Detection of CWD Prions in Urine and Saliva of Deer by Transgenic Mouse Bioassay

"The salient feature of chronic wasting disease is its facile transmission among its host species. Until recently, little was known regarding the mechanisms of this efficient transmissibility, however, we have previously demonstrated infectious prions in the saliva and blood of infected deer [6]. By using intracerebral inoculation of concentrated urine in cervid PrP transgenic mice, we report the presence of infectious prions in urine from CWD-infected cervids, and confirm the phenomenon of prionsialia in these animals. The identification of CWD prions in bodily fluids described in the current report could portend infectivity in secretions and excretions in other prion diseases."

[Four Season Whitetail's]

One last time:

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0004848

 

Detection of CWD Prions in Urine and Saliva of Deer by Transgenic Mouse Bioassay

"The salient feature of chronic wasting disease is its facile transmission among its host species. Until recently, little was known regarding the mechanisms of this efficient transmissibility, however, we have previously demonstrated infectious prions in the saliva and blood of infected deer [6]. By using intracerebral inoculation of concentrated urine in cervid PrP transgenic mice, we report the presence of infectious prions in urine from CWD-infected cervids, and confirm the phenomenon of prionsialia in these animals. The identification of CWD prions in bodily fluids described in the current report could portend infectivity in secretions and excretions in other prion diseases."

One last time....Just because a white coat can take a syringe full of CWD prions and inject them into whitetail deer urine and then into a mouse does not mean that the whitetail deer itself can produce the prions in their urine.  We have have a huge number of whitetails that were 100% positive checked for the prions in their urine and it just never happens. Ever!

 

Now unless you can show 100% fact where the CWD prion was found in a wild or farmed whitetail deer stop throwing up a bunch of white coat research.

 

I bet i could piss in a cup...Have a white coat inject the CWD prions into it and then stick it into a mouse and it would become a positive mouse. Does that mean that humans can make and spread the prions also???   No Facts...Just a bunch of test tube tests. Same crap thats been spread by politics for years and never proven to be reality in real life!

[Doc]

I favor the precautionary principle. Prove the urine is safe before using it in the wild.

Yes we see a lot of that mentality in government these days. If someone can imagine a negative scenario ..... Ban it! We see a lot of that in gun control mentality. Get rid of all things that have a potential for negative use or results. Kind of like guilty until proven innocent.....lol.

[Curmudgeon]

Since 4 seasons has a vested interest in the deer farming industry, proof to him is something completely different than scientific proof.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Since 4 seasons has a vested interest in the deer farming industry, proof to him is something completely different than scientific proof.

Thats a bunch of bull. Regardless of what i have vested if you can show me the research that shows the whitetail deer makes and produces the CWD prion in its urine then i will be right next to ya to shut it down.

 

You or anyone else after 50 plus years cant do that. Just because a white coat can take the prion and stick it into deer urine and injected into a mouse does not mean the deer itself can make the prion in its urine. Period!