Good Column on Non-lead Ammo

[mike rossi]

I am going to say that kid if this is a true story is a complete and utter dumbass and got what he deserved

You Can't Beat My Meat!

 

Yeah, I made it up. Its an agenda you know....

[BizCT]

If someone ate ammo, they should be locked up or given the death sentence

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[airedale]

One could also speculate that this kid was maybe trying to commit suicide by consuming a large quantity of lead, the complete opposite of thinking it was harmless because his Dad said so.

 

Unless the exact facts are known the whole story is open to speculation!

 

Al

Edited March 8, 2016 by airedale

[Rattler]

Here are my thoughts on this issue.  It all boils down to trust.  

 

The real effects of these proposals on average people usually show up after they are forcefully implemented, much like most government mandated edicts.  I think that is where the resistance comes from.

 

You don't need to ban firearms if you can make ammo unattainable, whether it be through cost or supply.  And that might not be judged an unconstitutional infringement on 2nd Amendment rights.  If only non-lead ammo was legal, could the producers meet the demand?  Could they do it without very high prices?  I think not.

 

The lead free crusade has a PR problem, because it doesn't have the answers to real questions and concerns.

 

The issues raised above are real concerns.  The anti lead ammo community is pushing non-lead very hard.  They're playing on the fear of poisoning children and raptors, but refuse to address any of the concerns many people have, like those outlined above.  Also, not everyone is convinced of the cause and effect relationship the scientific community claims to be fact, because there are some scientists on the other side of the issue too.  It has been stated the threat of lead ammo to humans and raptors is overblown.  Not a lie, but much less of a threat than some claim it to be.  If you expect to be successful when asking to change a monumental tradition, you'd better be willing to take on all concerns without being belligerent, sactimonious, self righteous or condescending.  I would no sooner listen to the author in the original post, than I would to anyone else, who chooses to ridicule and mock hunters because they won't swallow their adopted position without question.  You may very well be correct, but you will never make the sale.  People tend to buy from people they like.

[shawnhu]

The report with the photo was that this was an older child (not a toddler), I believe was a teen as a matter of fact.

Eating lead shotgun pellets probably was inspired by hearing from adults that ingesting lead pellets was harmless. The kid was apparently acting out. Why else would a teenager eat a load of pellets?

Link to article? A lot of speculation on your part, as a matter of fact.

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Edited March 8, 2016 by shawnhu

[Marion]

Yeah, I made it up. Its an agenda you know....

Now now, I did not say that you made anything up or had any agenda though your response may lead some to feel otherwise. I was merely stating that if the story that went along with the picture was true then the individual is a complete moron. There are many articles online that attribute a false story to a picture and I have honestly fallen for some myself and had to do more research. I'm not saying this is the case with your picture, just merely stating an opinion on the individual whose appendix that was

You Can't Beat My Meat!

[Grouse]

 

This photo is of meat from the ND Venison Donation Program put through a CT scanner. The white spots are lead. They were feeding this stuff to poor kids, not so different than Flint letting them drink lead tainted water.

 

Meat Scan w-credit.JPG

 

 

I think there is a big difference between this meat and the water in Flint, MI.  ALL of the water in Flint is contaminated.  Was all of the meat at this venison program contaminated, or just the pieces that were near the bullet impact point, which should have been cut away when it was butchered?  I would like to see a normal photo of this same piece of meat prior to the CT scan.  Most hunters and butchers cut away any blood shot meat from the deer.

[shawnhu]

Now now, I did not say that you made anything up or had any agenda though your response may lead some to feel otherwise. I was merely stating that if the story that went along with the picture was true then the individual is a complete moron. There are many articles online that attribute a false story to a picture and I have honestly fallen for some myself and had to do more research. I'm not saying this is the case with your picture, just merely stating an opinion on the individual whose appendix that was

You Can't Beat My Meat!

Now that I looked more closely to the picture, it's a deer appendix!

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[shawnhu]

I think there is a big difference between this meat and the water in Flint, MI. ALL of the water in Flint is contaminated. Was all of the meat at this venison program contaminated, or just the pieces that were near the bullet impact point, which should have been cut away when it was butchered? I would like to see a normal photo of this same piece of meat prior to the CT scan. Most hunters and butchers cut away any blood shot meat from the deer.

It could very well be THE cut up meat that was intended to be discarded, but was recovered to support an agenda. Nah, that could never happen....

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[Curmudgeon]

I think there is a big difference between this meat and the water in Flint, MI.  ALL of the water in Flint is contaminated.  Was all of the meat at this venison program contaminated, or just the pieces that were near the bullet impact point, which should have been cut away when it was butchered?  I would like to see a normal photo of this same piece of meat prior to the CT scan.  Most hunters and butchers cut away any blood shot meat from the deer.

 

The meat CT scan is from a study by doctors. They got 100 packages of ground meat from the ND venison donation program. These were randomly selected from the stock of food pantries across the state. 59 of those 100 tested packages had lead in them. They shut down the program at the time, even though I believe it may be operating again with very strict protocols. Read it. I attached the paper.

 

So, if only 59% is contaminated - not "all" - it doesn't count? Would you take a chance with your kid, or grandkid, or pregnant wife, on getting the 41% that did not contain lead. Personally, I do not like those odds. Since bullet fragments travel 15" or more from a bullet channel, how much meat "should have been cut away when it was butchered"?

 

You know doctors. They have an agenda. They probably falsified this all like shawnhu suggests.

ND Random Sampling.pdf

[shawnhu]

The meat CT scan is from a study by doctors. They got 100 packages of ground meat from the ND venison donation program. These were randomly selected from the stock of food pantries across the state. 59 of those 100 tested packages had lead in them. They shut down the program at the time, even though I believe it may be operating again with very strict protocols. Read it. I attached the paper.

So, if only 59% is contaminated - not "all" - it doesn't count? Would you take a chance with your kid, or grandkid, or pregnant wife, on getting the 41% that did not contain lead. Personally, I do not like those odds. Since bullet fragments travel 15" or more from a bullet channel, how much meat "should have been cut away when it was butchered"?

You know doctors. They have an agenda. They probably falsified this all like shawnhu suggests.

So lead was found in donated meat, where the butchers probably didn't pay much attention to what meat goes where. This article is also 9 years old. Has there been anymore cases of this?

So if we have an oil spill, are we to permanently stop the importation or drilling of oil? No, you take precautions to prevent oil spills, because oil is a basic everyday necessity. Ask hunters and shooters to give up their lead, and you're taking a huge risk of ending the sport all together.

I process my own meat, cut away areas of suspect, and consume the rest. I don't worry about what little lead, if any, are in my meat that I shot. I'll probably die from a million other things before lead is a factor.

Do you eat Salmon? How about Striped Bass, Tuna, Swordfish, Bluefish, Seabass? How about clams? Might want to look into the contaminants in those food too.

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[Rattler]

Do you eat Salmon? How about Striped Bass, Tuna, Swordfish, Bluefish, Seabass? How about clams? Might want to look into the contaminants in those food too.

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Good point.

[Rattler]

They shut down the program at the time, even though I believe it may be operating again with very strict protocols.

 

Sounds like it is very possible to shoot deer with a lead bullet and not have lead in the meat then.  Unless only deer shot with copper monolitics can be donated.  Some lead bullets, like the "Fail Safe" retain 100% of their weight when recovered.  I can't believe they would contaminate venison when used for hunting.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Rattler

[shawnhu]

Sounds like it is very possible to shoot deer with a lead bullet and not have lead in the meat then. Unless only deer shot with copper monolitics can be donated. Some lead bullets, like the "Fail Safe" retain 100% of their weight when recovered. I can't believe they would contaminate venison when used for hunting.

It's what happens when you shoot animals at 50 yards out of a high velocity rifle shooting soft points.

Even then, you can't blame the hunter when it's the butcher's job to clean up the meat for consumption.

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Edited March 8, 2016 by shawnhu

[Tacti_Steve]

I don't think that anyone is saying that lead bullets are a good thing. What we need is a good alternative. yes copper rounds can be that alternative. But you start laying out 30 tons of copper and farmers are going to stop farming and start mining. You are not going to get everyone with an older gun to go out and buy a new one so they can shoot steel shot. That's like telling everyone you have to go buy a new car because they're going to outlaw oil. It's not going to happen. Also remember we're talking about shotguns not high precision rifles. When I go out to shoot squirrels I just grab whatever I have laying around that was cheap. Consumers will drive some change but we need manufactures to be innovative and drive the change in a way consumers accept it. Not through regulation. If lead was that much of a problem we'd have a bigger problem. Lead has been used so much for so long and we're not finding it getting picked up in our food that's being grown in the fields. I'm not saying lead is a good thing but I think the problem is blown out of proportion.

[Curmudgeon]

It isn't only those who want safer bullets who have an agenda. You guys talk before you even know what you are talking about. Read Grouse's post #32 and Shawnhu's #34. You guys just jump to conclusions. You don't know. You don't ask. You just jump. There is a ton of information out there. Read.

 

Minnesota is the other state that shut down its VDP after testing its meat. I know of no other states that do testing. They don't want to know. Try to get some data from the NYS VDP. Good luck with that. I have been told that if they test, it opens up a liability can of worms. Let's all stick our heads in the sand.

 

ND now recommends that children 5 and under, and pregnant women, eat no wild game killed with lead. None! I was told this warning is now on the donated venison packages.

 

What is blown out of proportion is your reactions.We are talking a few bucks for better performance, safer food and no scavenger fatalities. You are not willing to make wise choices but why do you object to giving people information to make better choices? You guys can eat all the lead you want. I don't care. You can even feed it to your kids. But, don't give it to poor people and pretend you are doing them a favor.

 

 

 

 

[DirtTime]

Anyone have a link to some stats on how many animals die each year from lead?

I know it happens, but all the sites I find state completely ridiculous numbers, millions. If millions of animals died each year from lead poisoning I think there would be far more species extinct then we have now. Sorry, I don't buy the 'millions' statement without facts to back it up.

I agree with using non toxic rounds. I just don't see why they cost so much. Until the prices come down you will not see many people making the change.

[airedale]

Is there anything that is safe?, seems like copper has it's own dirty little secrets, I have not read anything detrimental about copper based bullets YET! 

 

http://www.arltma.com/Articles/CopperToxDoc.htm

[EspressoBuzz]

I was told that when town's hire hunters to cull the deer numbers in their area (as opposed to stupid measure like birth control) that they take head shots with small caliber ammo. I was also told all the meat goes to VDP. I am curious how that meat tests.

 

If we want the price to go down do what I do when I buy ammo. ASK FOR IT. We all praise our system of supply and demand, well demand!

[Marion]

Anyone have a link to some stats on how many animals die each year from lead?

I know it happens, but all the sites I find state completely ridiculous numbers, millions. If millions of animals died each year from lead poisoning I think there would be far more species extinct then we have now. Sorry, I don't buy the 'millions' statement without facts to back it up.

I agree with using non toxic rounds. I just don't see why they cost so much. Until the prices come down you will not see many people making the change.

That's because when they get shot they count that as lead poisoning. Forget about the fatal traumatic shock they experience when shot, it's the lead poisoning that does it.

You Can't Beat My Meat!

[DirtTime]

That's because when they get shot they count that as lead poisoning. Forget about the fatal traumatic shock they experience when shot, it's the lead poisoning that does it.

You Can't Beat My Meat!

Good point. LOL

[shawnhu]

But, don't give it to poor people and pretend you are doing them a favor.

Its a good thing they have these labels then huh? I mean, those poor people, being forced to ingest lead laced meat. I mean, they have so many other choices you know? Maybe we should only give them the back straps that are generally free of any tainted lead, and throw the rest away, because you know, they have a lot more options. Heck, they can simply refuse the tainted meat and go to the 5 star restaurant down the block in their hood and eat good, why bother with the chance by lowering themselves to... well, the poor. They have choices.

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[Curmudgeon]

Anyone have a link to some stats on how many animals die each year from lead?

I know it happens, but all the sites I find state completely ridiculous numbers, millions. If millions of animals died each year from lead poisoning I think there would be far more species extinct then we have now. Sorry, I don't buy the 'millions' statement without facts to back it up.

I agree with using non toxic rounds. I just don't see why they cost so much. Until the prices come down you will not see many people making the change.

 

Rob -

 

No, I have no data how many die each year. My experience has been with individuals. I have a photo of 38 lead-killed bald eagles that were accumulated over a year in  a FWS region. I do know that of 239 wild golden eagles that had blood drawn and tested (190 in the west, 49 in the east), 60% had blood-lead levels above what would be considered "lead poisoning" in a child. At the lower range - like a child - this level does not kill them. It does affect them and their ability to function as predators. At higher levels, they die directly from the lead, or from secondary causes due to the affects of the lead: exposure, starvation, predation, etc.

 

If I had to guess, I would say that thousands of bald eagles are affected by lead each year. All may not die. One reason is it hard to get a good number is, a sickened raptor will go off and hide. They die out there on the landscape where they rot, are scavenged, or turn to dust. Few are considerate enough to die next to a road, or on a walking path.

 

As populations, I do not think bald eagles, hawks ravens and crows are threatened, even though numbers of individuals die. The same cannot be said for golden eagles in the east, or condors in the west. These are small populations. A few individuals matter.

 

I was told that when town's hire hunters to cull the deer numbers in their area (as opposed to stupid measure like birth control) that they take head shots with small caliber ammo. I was also told all the meat goes to VDP. I am curious how that meat tests.

 

 

 

Yes, and they use frangible lead bullets. I was told this is not a problem because they only take head shots. Hmmmmmmm.

 

Its a good thing they have these labels then huh? I mean, those poor people, being forced to ingest lead laced meat. I mean, they have so many other choices you know? Maybe we should only give them the back straps that are generally free of any tainted lead, and throw the rest away, because you know, they have a lot more options. Heck, they can simply refuse the tainted meat and go to the 5 star restaurant down the block in their hood and eat good, why bother with the chance by lowering themselves to... well, the poor. They have choices.

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Shawnhu -

 

I hope you reread what you wrote in the light of day. I get the feeling you aren't a fan of the poor. Let's ignore them for a moment.

 

How can anyone make a choice when they do not have information? What if I - or one of your friends - invited you and your kids to my house and fed you toxic meat? Many people who are providing meat with lead in it, have no idea. You have a choice about trusting the safety of the food, however, you can not make a decision without information. There are no labels on pantry meat in NYS and most states. I did learn since I was last here that in addition to ND, IA and MN have warnings. MN scans every package.

 

Isn't one definition of poverty "a lack of choices"? If you are poor and the do-gooders at the food pantry give you meat, do you assume it is safe? When you are having trouble keeping the family fed, questioning the food provided by bleeding heart liberals is unlikely.

[Tacti_Steve]

Anyone know what the lead levels in a Deer before it gets shot are? 

[Marion]

I do like that MN scan procedure. Wonder what the cost per package is and if they can scale it up to apply that procedure to other states at minimal cost. All the deer I donate are shot with arrow so they need not worry about my deer. But either way if they can scan and remove contaminated meat a little to no cost then I say why not?

You Can't Beat My Meat!