Question about hunting with licensed tracking dogs in the Northern zone

[Padre86]

Alright, so I do plan on contacting the DEC to get clarification on this, but I wanted to post this here just to see if my idea on this is way off or not.

 

I recently received my NYS leashed tracking dog license from the DEC.  The license allows me to use my dog to track wounded big game (specifically deer and/or bear) on behalf of another hunter or I also believe on my own behalf.  There are specific requirements in terms of DEC notification, leashing the dog, weapons carried/used, ect. all of which can be found here: http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/25020.html

 

 

So my question is: am I allowed to bring my dog with me into the field when I deer hunt in the Northern Zone (specifically the Adirondacks)?

 

The obvious answer to this used to be no, as the DEC had very specific language regarding hunting with or even being accompanied by a dog in the Northern Zone while carrying certain shotguns and rifles: 

 

 

• In the Northern Zone, if you are hunting with a dog, or accompanied by a dog, you may not possess a rifle larger than .22 caliber rim-fire or possess a shotgun loaded with slug, ball or buckshot unless you are coyote hunting with a dog.

 

found here: http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/27801.html

 

But this is where the tricky part comes in.  If I legally shoot a deer by myself in the Northern zone, and the deer, for whatever reason, doesn't go down but runs away wounded, I should theoretically be allowed to go and get my dog and track that deer, carrying whatever weapon (whether it be shotgun or rifle) that I legally used (due to the license I now have).  Doing that however directly goes against the previously mentioned restriction on weapons and dogs in the Northern zone.

 

Moreover, if it turns out that it is in fact legal for me to use my dog, while carrying a rifle or shotgun, to track a wounded deer (or bear) then it should be legal for me to be afield with a dog, while deer or bear hunting.  My line of thinking on this is that if my license allows me to track the big game with a dog, while carrying, then I should be able to have my dog at my side prior to and during the hunt in case such tracking is needed.

 

And before anyone gets the wrong idea, no, I'm not trying to find a loophole in the system so that I can chase, harass, or otherwise take deer and/or bear in an illegal and unfair manner.  There are two main reasons that I am trying to get clarification on this:

1) My dog loves going into the outdoors with me and it's been a pain every time I've had to leave him behind because I'm not allowed to even have him accompany me during big game hunts in the Northern zone.  I have an electronic collar on him when we go into the wilderness and have trained him not to take off after deer, so he knows to stay with me.

2) Hunting in the Northern zone, especially the Adirondacks, is remote and rough.  If I do wound a deer or bear and need help tracking it, it would be extremely impractical, almost prohibitively so, to hike out to my car, go back to my cabin, get my dog, drive back, hike out and then try to find the animal.

 

So what do people think of this?  Is there perhaps a legal argument to be made on my part?

Edited July 21, 2016 by Padre86

[thphtm]

As I am former NYSLTD lic. holder, You should know that you have to contact your local NYS Police before going to track any wounded game. I would think there would be more of them in the area you are going to hunt then DEC people. I would contact them and see what the have to say.

Question has your dog been trained in blood tracking or is it your common hunting dog that can pick up a sent pretty good.

[adkhunter71]

So, are you suggesting that anyone who plans on hunting in the remote and rough Adirondacks should go through the process of getting and training a tracking dog because it is impractical to hike out and get help with tracking a wounded animal?  

 

I say that this is not a good reason to justify bringing a dog with you on a hunt.  

  

Edited July 21, 2016 by adkhunter71

[Padre86]

As I am former NYSLTD lic. holder, You should know that you have to contact your local NYS Police before going to track any wounded game. I would think there would be more of them in the area you are going to hunt then DEC people. I would contact them and see what the have to say.

Question has your dog been trained in blood tracking or is it your common hunting dog that can pick up a sent pretty good.

 

You have to contact the DEC, not the State Police, prior tracking, at least according to the license requirements that I have read.  Like I said, I do plan on reaching out to the DEC to clarify this.

 

My dog has not been specifically trained for blood tracking, but he does have introductory training to scent detection and will be getting further training on tracking during the summer.

 

So, are you suggesting that anyone who plans on hunting in the remote and rough Adirondacks should go through the process of getting and training a tracking dog because it is impractical to hike out and get help with tracking a wounded animal?  

 

I say that this is not a good reason to justify bringing a dog with you on a hunt.  

So, are you suggesting that anyone who plans on hunting in the remote and rough Adirondacks should go through the process of getting and training a tracking dog because it is impractical to hike out and get help with tracking a wounded animal?  

 

I say that this is not a good reason to justify bringing a dog with you on a hunt.  

 

I'm not saying that anyone who plans on hunting remotely in the ADK's should have a tracking dog, I'm saying that I would like to have my tracking dog available should the need arise.  I by no means am trying to impose my ideas and views onto others, but personally I think I should be able to bring my dog along so long as I am not breaking any laws.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Padre86

[adkhunter71]

You have to contact the DEC, not the State Police, prior tracking, at least according to the license requirements that I have read.  Like I said, I do plan on reaching out to the DEC to clarify this.

 

My dog has not been specifically trained for blood tracking, but he does have introductory training to scent detection and will be getting further training on tracking during the summer.

 

 

I'm not saying that anyone who plans on hunting remotely in the ADK's should have a tracking dog, I'm saying that I would like to have my tracking dog available should the need arise.  I by no means am trying to impose my ideas and views onto others, but personally I think I should be able to bring my dog along so long as I am not breaking any laws.

Your dog would be available to you back at your cabin, but you just don't want to be inconvenienced to go back and get it.

 

Not trying to sound like a jerk, but it seems to me that you might just not want to go into the remote and rugged ADK's by yourself.  

[Doewhacker]

No you can't have a dog with you while you are deer hunting, plain and simple. No need to try and bend the rules, you can't do it.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Doewhacker

[Padre86]

Your dog would be available to you back at your cabin, but you just don't want to be inconvenienced to go back and get it.

 

Not trying to sound like a jerk, but it seems to me that you might just not want to go into the remote and rugged ADK's by yourself.  

 

I think my point is being lost on some here.  I'm not going to be hunting a few miles away from my cabin.  I'm going to be hunting in Wilderness areas, where the access points just to get to the trailhead will be an hour or so away (in some cases more), in addition to however many more miles I'll have to hike by foot to actually get to the area where I intend to hunt.

 

This is not pull-up hunting, where I get out of my car and walk several hundred meters to my tree stand, nor is this backyard hunting, where I walk a short distance from my cabin to a stand or blind.  This is remote wilderness hunting, and having to get out of this wilderness, drive and retrieve my dog would be much more than an inconvenience.

 

All that aside, I'm not asking for people's opinions on whether or not they think I am justified in bringing my dog along.  I am simply looking for feedback on whether or not I have a legal argument to make with the DEC.

 

I've already demonstrated that there is in fact a conflict between what the leashed tracking license allows and what other DEC rules state.  So obviously there is some grey area regarding this issue.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Padre86

[Tacti_Steve]

I would agree that you can't have it out hunting with you. You could leave him in the car and go get him if you need him. But hunting Deer with dogs is so frowned upon in NYS that even guys not hunting Deer with dogs during Deer season get harassed. 

[grampy]

I've been a Deer Search tracker for a number of years. You can NOT bring your dog in the woods to hunt! Has your dog been certified? You MUST call DEC from the tracking area prior to tracking, and fill out a report. Calling local police is recommended as well. Your dog MUST be leashed at all times. Hence the term "leashed tracking dog". What you are trying to do is not legal and if you passed the leashed dog tracking test, you should know the rules and regulations! 

Edited July 21, 2016 by grampy

[Padre86]

I would agree that you can't have it out hunting with you. You could leave him in the car and go get him if you need him. But hunting Deer with dogs is so frowned upon in NYS that even guys not hunting Deer with dogs during Deer season get harassed. 

 

I have considered that option of leaving the dog in the car.  My only concern with that is that I'll be parked in a remote spot, and should something happen to me, there likely won't be anyone to get my dog.  But still that is an option I am weighing.

 

I get that hunting deer with dogs is considered taboo in this state.  But in the Northern zone of all places, a tracking dog would be very useful to have ready, and moreover I seriously doubt I'll be running into any other hunters in the places I plan on going into.  I've noticed that in other states where hunting deer with dog is prohibited, Alaska for example, hunters still routinely bring their dogs into the field with them, they just don't let their dogs actually harass, chase or hunt the game.  There is obviously a lot of individual responsibility assumed with such practices, but the state wildlife officials there seem fine with it so long as the owners aren't explicitly breaking any hunting laws.  

 

There is an clause in NY's hunting regs which explicitly states you can't hunt or be afield in the Northern Zone with certain rifles or shotguns unless hunting coyotes (likely to prevent illegal deer hunting methods).  But there does seem to be a legal grey area simply by nature of tracking (w/ a valid license) a wounded deer in the Northern Zone while carrying a rifle or shotgun.

[Doewhacker]

Nope there is no grey area, it's illegal. Tracking and hunting are two separate things that you can't mix together and do as you please.

[Doewhacker]

Manner of Taking

It is unlawful to:

Take big game while the deer or bear is in water.

Possess a firearm of any description when bowhunting or when accompanying a person bowhunting during special archery seasons.

Make, set or use a salt lick on land inhabited by deer or bear.

It is unlawful to hunt big game with:

A firearm or bow aided by any artificial light or a laser that projects a beam toward the target.

An autoloading firearm with a capacity of more than 6 shells (one which requires that the trigger be pulled separately for each shot), except an autoloading pistol with a barrel length of less than 8 inches.

A firearm using rimfire ammunition.

A shotgun of less than 20 gauge or any shotgun loaded with shells other than those carrying a single projectile.

A bow with a draw weight of 35 lbs or less.

Arrows with barbed broadheads; arrowheads less than 7/8 inches at the widest point or with less than 2 sharp cutting edges.

Dogs.

Aircraft of any kind.

Bait.

[Padre86]

I've been a Deer Search tracker for a number of years. You can NOT bring your dog in the woods to hunt! Has your dog been certified? You MUST call DEC from the tracking area prior to tracking, and fill out a report. Calling local police is recommended as well. Your dog MUST be leashed at all times. Hence the term "leashed tracking dog". What you are trying to do is not legal and if you passed the leashed dog tracking test, you should know the rules and regulations! 

 

Okay, you might be  a DS member, but I think we need to clarify a few things here:

1) I'm not asking to bring my dog into the woods so that he can hunt deer.  I'm asking to bring him with me as I hunt deer, so that he can be readily available should i need his nose work.

2) Has my dog been certified?  What does that mean?  The only requirements for the tracking dog is that it be properly licensed as per Article 7 of the New York State Department of Agriculture and Markets Law (basically a current rabies vaccination and any applicable municipal registration paperwork).

3) There is no report to fill out.  You have to call into the DEC with the following info: licensee name; name, address, phone #, big game license of the hunter using the tracking dog's services; general location; name of landowners (if applicable).

4) Calling the police might be recommended by DS, but the only authority that is required to be notified is the DEC, since they are the organization that handles environmental law.

5) You must have your dog leashed for the tracking of wounded animal.  If I am walking to/from a kill site to begin tracking, there is no requirement to have the dog leashed, just as if I were hiking in the woods with my dog.

 

I did pass the leashed tracking dog exam and am very familiar with its requirements.  That is why I am bringing up this issue.  If am legally tracking a wounded deer that I myself shot, technically-speaking, I shouldn't be carrying any sort of rifle or shotgun with me even though I'll need something should the deer still be alive.  There is a legal grey area that neither the DEC website nor the leashed tracking dog reg book provide a good answer to.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Padre86

[Padre86]

Nope there is no grey area, it's illegal. Tracking and hunting are two separate things that you can't mix together and do as you please.

 

You and others are missing part of my point here.  Even if I keep my dog at home or in my car and go back to retrieve him to track a wounded animal that I shot, I am still technically breaking the rule I had previously brought up (regarding the Northern Zone and being afield with dogs and rifles/shotguns).

 

This is the legal grey area I am referring to.

[Doewhacker]

One of us is missing a point but it sure ain't me.

[Padre86]

One of us is missing a point but it sure ain't me.

 

You obviously have strong feelings on this issue, which is fine.  

 

But there is in fact a legal grey area, even if I were to legally bring my dog into the field to track after I had already taken a shot.  I have explained this grey area several times over now, showing the relevant references.  Your repeated posts about how it is "illegal" do not specifically address this grey area.

 

You don't sound like you've read through the leashed tracking dog guide book (which can be found here: http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/ltdguide.pdf).  Nor do you sound like you have experience conducting leashed tracking.  So it would probably be best if you let someone else, more familiar with this subject, add their feedback.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Padre86

[grampy]

You and others are missing part of my point here.  Even if I keep my dog at home or in my car and go back to retrieve him to track a wounded animal that I shot, I am still technically breaking the rule I had previously brought up (regarding the Northern Zone and being afield with dogs and rifles/shotguns).

 

This is the legal grey area I am referring to.

 

I'm really not trying to bust your stones but You should know the NYSLTD rules and regulations having just "passed" the test. There is no grey area! You either are hunting OR tracking. If you go to your car, camp or where ever to get your dog, when tracking, you can have a firearm. But my biggest question is why do you have a wounded deer before you even hunt? 

[Doewhacker]

You obviously have strong feelings on this issue, which is fine.

But there is in fact a legal grey area, even if I were to legally bring my dog into the field to track after I had already taken a shot. I have explained this grey area several times over now, showing the relevant references. Your repeated posts about how it is "illegal" do not specifically address this grey area.

You don't sound like you've read through the leashed tracking dog guide book (which can be found here: http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/wildlife_pdf/ltdguide.pdf). Nor do you sound like you have experience conducting leashed tracking. So it would probably be best if you let someone else, more familiar with this subject, add their feedback.

Yea that's it I don't know what I'm talking about. Don't listen to any one here. Don't bother asking if you don't like the answers you are given.

[jjb4900]

you need to separate tracking and hunting totally......when you're tracking, you're tracking...when you're hunting, you're hunting.....can't take your dog for a "walk" while hunting deer. If you have tracking license that overrides the law of not having a gun and dog afield at the same time. The law you posted says while "hunting", you're not hunting at that point, you're tracking.

Edited July 21, 2016 by jjb4900

[Padre86]

I'm really not trying to bust your stones but You should know the NYSLTD rules and regulations having just "passed" the test. There is no grey area! You either are hunting OR tracking. If you go to your car, camp or where ever to get your dog, when tracking, you can have a firearm. But my biggest question is why do you have a wounded deer before you even hunt? 

 

And I hate to be busting your stones, but I'm not sure why you're questioning my understanding of the Leashed Tracking Dog guidelines when I just pointed out several inaccuracies with your earlier post regarding its requirements.  

 

The grey area is this: The DEC states explicity that you cannot hunt or be afield with a dog in the Northern Zone while carrying certain rifles and shotguns, except during coyote hunting:

 

 

 

• In the Northern Zone, if you are hunting with a dog, or accompanied by a dog, you may not possess a rifle larger than .22 caliber rim-fire or possess a shotgun loaded with slug, ball or buckshot unless you are coyote hunting with a dog.

 

 

The way I read that, it means simply hiking or yes, even tracking, with your dog while carrying anything above a .22 rim-fire is expressly forbidden in the Northern Zone.  This contradicts the Leashed Tracking Dog Guidelines which state:

 

 

 

• The leashed tracking dog handler has the authority to dispatch a wounded or injured deer or bear at any time of day or night after it has been located.  The hunter, during legal hunting hours (sunrise to sunset) can dispatch the wounded animal after it has been sighted.  The hunter must use the weapon of the specific hunting season with which they initially wounded the animal.  However, a leashed tracking dog handler can dispatch the animal during legal hunting hours if they decide it is the safest procedure to follow at the time.  Safety must always be the number one consideration at all times.

 

 

and

 

 

 The handler can dispatch the wounded animal with a firearm that s/he is authorized to use and that complies with all federal, state or local laws or regulations concerning firearms.

 

both found in the section on "Dispatching an Animal."  This is the grey area I am referring to.

 

 

 

 

Yea that's it I don't know what I'm talking about. Don't listen to any one here. Don't bother asking if you don't like the answers you are given.

 

You don't know what you're talking about.  I am asking a very nuanced and specific question which seems to have gone right over your head.

 

you need to separate tracking and hunting totally......when you're tracking, you're tracking...when you're hunting, you're hunting.....can't take your dog for a "walk" while hunting deer.

 

I agree there is a difference between hunting and tracking, but again, please note the language I have captured in quotes.  Simply being accompanied by a dog in the Northern Zone is forbidden when carrying certain types of rifles and shotguns, according to the DEC.

Edited July 21, 2016 by Padre86

[Doewhacker]

It's like you are trolling us. Unreal.

Tell you what smart guy, go for it and let the Dec know what your plans are and then argue your interpretation to a judge.

[grampy]

I give up!!!  After 15 years blood tracking with dogs I know nothing and you know it all! You win, I'm Out! Good luck out there, you're going to need it!

[jjb4900]

I agree there is difference between hunting and tracking, but again, please note the language I have captured in quotes.  Simply being accompanied by a dog in the Northern Zone is forbidden when carrying certain types of rifles and shotguns, according to the DEC.

I think that refers to certain firearms and whether or not their allowed in the area...for instance, I tracked on Long Island.....had to carry a shotgun because rifles and handguns are forbidden on the Island, same as if you're tracking in a shotgun only zone, no rifle. The license allows you to carry a firearm that is allowed to be discharged in that area...much like it allows you to shoot after legal hours, which is forbidden everywhere......and it allows you to have the dog with you while doing so.

Edited July 21, 2016 by jjb4900

[Doewhacker]

I think that refers to certain firearms and whether or not their allowed in the area...for instance, I tracked on Long Island.....had to carry a shotgun because rifles and handguns are forbidden on the Island, same as if you're tracking in a shotgun only zone, no rifle. The license allows you to carry a firearm that is allowed to be discharged in that area...much like it allows you to shoot after legal hours, which is forbidden everywhere.

That blurb referered to not being able to hunt deer with dogs which as we have all tried to explain is completely different from tracking.

It's plain and simple no dogs allowed while hunting, dogs and guns allowed while tracking.

[Doewhacker]

I give up!!! After 15 years blood tracking with dogs I know nothing and you know it all! You win, I'm Out! Good luck out there, you're going to need it!

Especially because it doesn't sound like he has done any training. But what do we know.