Leasing Ruins Conservation

[phade]

27 minutes ago, Papist said:

This report states that 40% of private land owners do indeed allow non family member to have recreational access, including hunting. Bigger than I would have guessed at:

http://www.agriculture.ny.gov/rl_survey.pdf

It's about where I would think - but your comments made me think of whether this number would vary across regions and population bases. Is that number 20% around Buffalo and Roc? 5% around NYC? I think that would be more telling. Having 80% of the willing landowners condensed into low population areas really ends up with the same result as having say a much lower % of landowners willing to give access.

[stoneam2006]

This report states that 40% of private land owners do indeed allow non family member to have recreational access, including hunting. Bigger than I would have guessed at:

http://www.agriculture.ny.gov/rl_survey.pdf

But how much of that is included in leasing

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[growalot]

I believe NYS has a law that restricts high fencing that would contain wild deer on a property with out DEC permission...you need a permit and I believe all wild deer removed depending on the DEC usage permits. There must be a lot of those around..Oh that's right...deer farms

[growalot]

I called the "wambulance " a while ago....wish it would get here soon....

[stoneam2006]

I believe NYS has a law that restricts high fencing that would contain wild deer on a property with out DEC permission...you need a permit and I believe all wild deer removed depending on the DEC usage permits. There must be a lot of those around..Oh that's right...deer farms

Doesn't say stops....says limits...limits deer movement

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[growalot]

Ya... deep culvert ditches, closely planted pine,grape vine trellises...where the hell is that wambulance!

[G-Man]

It's not the leasing that's the problem,it's management of forest that's is lacking.. if you manage the habitat then the game will be there.or wou will draw them over to better habitat. A hunter leasing the hunting for deer on a property does little for the habitat.

The owner of the proper ty is the main failure there he/ she should know a certain number of deer should be taken and work that into the lease... deer will strip.a woods and a mature Woodlot is pretty damn useless for just about every game species. Secondary growth, select logging, leaving dead snags and girdle ing trees is lacking today.

Lack of trapping, small game hunting does more damage than not shooting a deer. So for leasing ruining hunting that's the least of my concerns, very few people I know and a few on this site actually manage habitat. I'm not talking about the guy that thinks food plots solve all his problems I'm talking about those that actually understand what conservation is and better their properties practicing it.

That being said I would love for someone to pay me to hunt my land.. but there would be stipulations in harvest quota, and management of habitat.

[stoneam2006]

It's not the leasing that's the problem,it's management of forest that's is lacking.. if you manage the habitat then the game will be there.or wou will draw them over to better habitat. A hunter leasing the hunting for deer on a property does little for the habitat.

The owner of the proper ty is the main failure there he/ she should know a certain number of deer should be taken and work that into the lease... deer will strip.a woods and a mature Woodlot is pretty damn useless for just about every game species. Secondary growth, select logging, leaving dead snags and girdle ing trees is lacking today.

Lack of trapping, small game hunting does more damage than not shooting a deer. So for leasing ruining hunting that's the least of my concerns, very few people I know and a few on this site actually manage habitat. I'm not talking about the guy that thinks food plots solve all his problems I'm talking about those that actually understand what conservation is and better their properties practicing it.

That being said I would love for someone to pay me to hunt my land.. but there would be stipulations in harvest quota, and management of habitat.

Agreed and the state does a poor job on stateland with habitat. And agree that lack of other game management doesn't help at all. Someday I'll own land

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[G-Man]

There is a new state land initiative on early succession al forest that 90+management area are now involved it.. timber sales have been signed and designated profit to go to conservation fund.
The state tries but is severely understaffed.. but this may look promising

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[stoneam2006]

There is a new state land initiative on early succession al forest that 90+management area are now involved it.. timber sales have been signed and designated profit to go to conservation fund.
The state tries but is severely understaffed.. but this may look promising

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Please keep us posted as you hear more or see more sounds promising they need it bad

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[Chef]

In fact I have been grooming this place to sell to hunters when the time comes...I'm actually thinking perhaps not...I'll be considering courting developers instead...

How much you looking for ?


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[growalot]

It will be top end of market at the time...

[Chef]

It will be top end of market at the time...

Let me know, when your ready I'm looking to move upstate in the future and I know all the work you've put into your place


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[Core]

22 hours ago, phade said:

What I know I am not, is the casual hunter though. I couldn't do that because it won't deliver on what I want out of hunting. Some people can hunt opening day and not do anything again until they sight in their gun for the next season.

Had a co-worker like this. last year he went out once and couldn't even be bothered to sight in his gun beforehand, having fired (and missing) a deer the year earlier. Went to a friend's place for one morning this past season and got nothing. He calls himself a hunter but I would call him merely a hunting permit purchaser. In other words, if you use the treadmill every 2-3 weeks, you can't call yourself a runner

[Padre86]

On 9/2/2016 at 2:53 PM, growalot said:

In fact I have been grooming this place to sell to hunters when the time comes...I'm actually thinking perhaps not...I'll be considering courting developers instead...

If there is one post in this entire thread that could effectively summarize what is wrong with hunting in New York, it is this one above.

Too many hunters in this state are in it for themselves or for their good ole boy network of hunting buddies...and not enough are looking out for the hunting community as a whole.

 

I'll reiterate what I've always said: private land is private and the owner can be as selective as he/she wants in terms of who is allowed to hunt it.  No one is showing disdain for landowners growalot, nor is anyone advocating that we force landowners to accept strangers onto their lands.  But there is a problem with deer overpopulation and poor forest regeneration in parts of this state, which the DEC has documented; most of it to do with too many buck being taken and not enough doe.  And land access is a huge hurdle for many new and prospective hunters to overcome in this state.  

 

If we hope to tackle either of those issues, we, as a hunting community, need to come up with solutions.  Growalot, if you want to sell your land to developers, like I said, that's your choice and no one is going to dispute that.  But the spite and outright anger you have towards non-landowners is not helping NY's hunting situation.  

[growalot]

That statement was neither anger nor spite and for years I've spoken of grooming this place to sell to hunters...but I am not going to do so when I continually read the whining that is coming from self indulgent self absorbed cry babies...Me,me ,me ,me...I want my fancy cars, boats, motorcycles ,60" flat screens ,yearly vacations, hunting gear, and by the way free access to your private land to hunt because it's better than state land that yours and everyone else taxes pay for...If you think for even a millisecond your post makes me feel bad about what I have taken away from, NOT JUST THIS POST.you'd be wrong... This happens every year...wha,wha,wha....

Well, listen up...You can do what we did...Worked our Fannies off, drive 10 year old cars,never take vacations , eat in,  not spend 200 a month on cable TV and plan for the future. See I saw what was coming 25 years ago and planned accordingly. I Never ,and have said this many times,never hunt state land because I don't think it fair. I have our places,yet non owners think it's OK to expect land owners to open their places to them after pay exorbitant taxes. Legally or not..If that's not arrogance ,Well than I must be looking at the wrong definition. The fact that nothing else has work to do this, they are now touting conservation as the reason to do so is.

Lets talk about the DEC and over browsing. Here's a thought...The DEC wants to kill off as much of the herd as possible without ticking off hunters, they do not want to spend the man power to manage the state land forests as they should have for years. Granted trying now,a little late. So what better why to not take responsibility for what they have created and get rid of deer. but to blame them for all the lack of under story... Do yourself a favor and look up while your in the woods...many of these mature growth forest ...have massive canopies that just will not support young saplings or even fern...they not only shade but devour the water supply......I was just walking our place today knocking down dozens of young sapling...dead due to this drought and in maturing woods ready for cutting...

Then You have the if they said no to us, they haven't enough people hunting and that's why there are so many deer. That is so obtuse  I can't even address it.

Edited September 4, 2016 by growalot

[Buckmaster7600]

I am one of those selfish land owners that doesn't allow anyone to hunt it other than family and I still hunt state land most of the time. I do this because my 300acre and 100 acre chunks do no allow me to hunt the way I love to hunt. It's hard to spend a day tracking or still hunting on these small parcels and that's why I have a camp in the ADKS and that's where I spend the majority of my season. Now don't get me wrong I love having the ability to walk out my front or back door and go hunting. I only know of 4 deer being shot on the 300 acres around the house in the last 3 years and only 1 was a buck the other 3 were does that my 96 year old neighbor shot. I have a pretty balanced deer herd on it of about 2.5 does to bucks.

Unless you own thousands of acres there is no way to balance a herd without fences.


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[Padre86]

25 minutes ago, growalot said:

That statement was neither anger nor spite and for years I've spoken of grooming this place to sell to hunters...but I am not going to do so when I continually read the whining that is coming from self indulgent self absorbed cry babies...Me,me ,me ,me...I want my fancy cars, boats, motorcycles ,60" flat screens ,yearly vacations, hunting gear, and by the way free access to your private land to hunt because it's better than state land that yours and everyone else taxes pay for...If you think for even a millisecond your post makes me feel bad about what I have taken away from, NOT JUST THIS POST.you'd be wrong... This happens every year...wha,wha,wha....

 

That whole paragraph, and your preceding posts, sure do convey a lot of spite and anger from the way I read them.

But to briefly address the entirety of your concerns:

a) No one is asking for free access to private land nor mandatory sharing of private land.  But land access is undeniably a big issue in this state for hunters, especially for the younger ones.  We need to find ways to promote access, whether it be via conservation easements, paying for access to private land, or creating more public land.  I'd be interested in hearing any specific ideas you have on this issue.  "Saving up your money" sounds great in concept, but doesn't really apply to the 18-35 demographic that we need to be targeting and passing on the hunting baton to.  Most people of that age bracket have nowhere near the income required to go and buy their own land.

b ) Mature forests are not the biggest issue, at least in regards to private land, resulting in poor regeneration.  Over browsing by a rising deer population is a bigger problem in parts of central and western NY, because many, though not all, landowners aren't properly managing the wildlife on their properties (either only hunting for bucks or not hunting at all).  FWIW, I haven't seen any DEC studies properly document the forest regeneration of all of NY's land, but the DEC has rated large chunks of land in some surveys.  Those surveys found that that largely untouched forests, e.g. the Adirondacks and Tug Hill, have been doing just fine in terms of forest regeneration, despite the lack of regular logging.  

 

Some good DEC sources discussing these topics:

DEC 2012-2016 Deer Management Plan

2015 Deer Harvest Report

 

[Chef]

That whole paragraph, and your preceding posts, sure do convey a lot of spite and anger from the way I read them.

But to briefly address the entirety of your concerns:

a) No one is asking for free access to private land nor mandatory sharing of private land.  But land access is undeniably a big issue in this state for hunters, especially for the younger ones.  We need to find ways to promote access, whether it be via conservation easements, paying for access to private land, or creating more public land.  I'd be interested in hearing any specific ideas you have on this issue.  "Saving up your money" sounds great in concept, but doesn't really apply to the 18-35 demographic that we need to be targeting and passing on the hunting baton to.  Most people of that age bracket have nowhere near the income required to go and buy their own land.

b ) Mature forests are not the biggest issue, at least in regards to private land, resulting in poor regeneration.  Over browsing by a rising deer population is a bigger problem in parts of central and western NY, because many, though not all, landowners aren't properly managing the wildlife on their properties (either only hunting for bucks or not hunting at all).  FWIW, I haven't seen any DEC studies properly document the forest regeneration of all of NY's land, but the DEC has rated large chunks of land in some surveys.  Those surveys found that that largely untouched forests, e.g. the Adirondacks and Tug Hill, have been doing just fine in terms of forest regeneration, despite the lack of regular logging.  

 

Some good DEC sources discussing these topics:

DEC 2012-2016 Deer Management Plan

2015 Deer Harvest Report

 

I am part of that 18-35 year old demographic and I have made it my business to be able to buy land. I work my ass off to do so and still have the things I want in life. And now that I do own land I will open it up to no one because I worked for it and it is mine. The only people besides myself and my wife that will be allowed to hunt is my long time hunting partner! We have been friends since we were kids, and have hunted together a long time now.... Heck I won't even let my own brother hunt.


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[Padre86]

5 minutes ago, chefhunter86 said:

I am part of that 18-35 year old demographic and I have made it my business to be able to buy land. I work my ass off to do so and still have the things I want in life. And now that I do own land I will open it up to no one because I worked for it and it is mine. The only people besides myself and my wife that will be allowed to hunt is my long time hunting partner! We have been friends since we were kids, and have hunted together a long time now.... Heck I won't even let my own brother hunt.


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That's great for you, but the key word I used was "most."  And I'll stand by what I said.  "Most" people of that age bracket can't afford to buy their own land for hunting.

 

I grew up in Rochester, NY and I certainly didn't come from a hunting family.  I got interested in hunting well after college, and with the exception of a little bit of help from 1 distant relative, I've been largely self-taught.  From the outside looking in, the biggest deterrent for new hunters, besides learning how to hunt, is finding a place to hunt.  If people on this thread want to pretend that isn't an issue and dismiss any dissenting opinions as selfish whining, so be it.  But they're hurting NY's hunting community in the long run. 

[Core]

On 9/2/2016 at 1:14 PM, NYBowhunter said:

Why you ask? Its very simple just way to many dirtbags and low lifes in this world  that have no repect for others property. Being a landowner and landlord, sometimes we think the people we know, we really dont. What some have worked thier lives to get can get destroyed by others in short order. Sometimes the risk just doesnt  out weigh the benefits wether it be finacially or for the sake of animal mgt. Granted there many honest great hunters out there but who has the time to weed through them. Thats why when your out seeking permission  you get the simple NO from landowners a vast majority of the times. Its just not worth the headache.

You know what, i went into the bathroom the other day in a store and, as usual, pee was on the seat. I then had to spent 20-30 seconds wiping it down. Or, the person who had peed on it could have simply spent four seconds before me lifting it up. Why didn't he? Because he just does not give a damn. People really are filthy animals. I still see people throw trash on the road for no reason other than they simply don't care because it doesn't affect them. I'm sure plenty of people borrowing access to private land have acted like pigs. I hate when I see a beer can or wrapper on the public land I've been using. Pick that up 

[Chef]

That's great for you, but the key word I used was "most."  And I'll stand by what I said.  "Most" people of that age bracket can't afford to buy their own land for hunting.

 

I grew up in Rochester, NY and I certainly didn't come from a hunting family.  I got interested in hunting well after college, and with the exception of a little bit of help from 1 distant relative, I've been largely self-taught.  From the outside looking in, the biggest deterrent for new hunters, besides learning how to hunt, is finding a place to hunt.  If people on this thread want to pretend that isn't an issue and dismiss any dissenting opinions as selfish whining, so be it.  But they're hurting NY's hunting community in the long run. 

FYI my hunting buddy and I are both self taught neither of us came from a hunting family.... Yes MOST 18-35 year olds can afford land. But I worked my ass off to be able to afford mine.... Is it the idea piece, NO but it works for me right now. Not everyone has the same work ethic or the same opportunity in life. But we all live in a free country and with hard work and and a little luck we can all advance in life..... All this opening up private land to the woe is me hunter who can't afford It and who doesn't want to go find some public land really bothers me.... If that's what you want go move to a communist country, you can hunt all the no longer private land you want and wait in long lines for your food too


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[growalot]

Then you are clueless as to what all this "select" cutting has actually done to a lot of wood lots..especially when timber prices dropped like a rock.....BTW.. my bluntness is not anger nor spite. I wouldn't expect you to see that,for you've already shown you can't see the forest through the trees. Nuf said.

[Buckmaster7600]

FYI my hunting buddy and I are both self taught neither of us came from a hunting family.... Yes MOST 18-35 year olds can afford land. But I worked my ass off to be able to afford mine.... Is it the idea piece, NO but it works for me right now. Not everyone has the same work ethic or the same opportunity in life. But we all live in a free country and with hard work and and a little luck we can all advance in life..... All this opening up private land to the woe is me hunter who can't afford It and who doesn't want to go find some public land really bothers me.... If that's what you want go move to a communist country, you can hunt all the no longer private land you want and wait in long lines for your food too


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Being part of that demographic myself. I will also say that I don't think it's as much them not having the money but more of priorities. I don't make as much as many of my old high school buddies and they are the ones always asking me when they can come over and hunt. I set my mind at about 18 yrs old that land wasn't being made any more and I was going to buy all I could.


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[growalot]

Well If your in Rochester,than I know your full of shite..there is a ton of public hunting within a hour...much a half hour of Rochester. So don't whine of no access...you want the greener grass. There are guys on here and other states that drive  hours to Letchworth to hunt....that's just one area.