Predator Control Is A Must!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

7 hours ago, ....rob said:

I hate talking about the yote issue these days. I agree with wooly on killing a den of pups would just be cruel.

Not every area is the same, what you see in your yard might not be the same in someone else's yard. This is the huge issue I have. You cannot tell people they are wrong about having an issue unless you know for a fact they don't. How does one determine Jonny Rock has no issue while Jerry Bean does? The DEC ( pfffffffffffffft!!!!!!!!! )? Have you been on Jonny's or Jerry's land? 

So So True.... Not even close to the same problems a mere 10 miles away. Those cute little fur balls grow up to be ruthless killers and when they add up to any kind of numbers will wipe out much more than just deer.

Doc, I can tell you for a 100% fact that on our farm here and the farm in 8M have never ever been close on the yote numbers. We have always had piles of deer down there with very few dogs ever seen of heard and very few ever taken by traps or running with dogs. Up here the numbers were reversed with piles of dogs and no deer. What was also shown up here with our problem was the total lack of any small game be it bird or animal. I believe that all started with them wiping out the nests.young and eggs of anything that used to call the farm home.

Amazing turn around on this land a few short years after the war.

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Four Season Whitetails

[Curmudgeon]

Coyotes have little impact on deer density in most of this state. The point has been made repeatedly - in this thread and others - that human hunters take many more deer. If you want more deer, don't put your energy into trying to eliminate coyotes, lobby DEC. Even in SC, where much has been made of the number of fawns killed, research shows coyotes kill few adult does - http://wildlife.org/wsb-study-coyote-predation-not-the-main-source-of-declining-deer-in-s-c/ .

I know 2 groups that want high deer numbers. There is a cohort of deer hunters who care about little else than that one species. There are also the urban animal lovers who lean towards animal rights. As far as I'm concerned, they are flip sides of the same coin: people who see one large charismatic species and no others.

When I look at habitat to see whether there are too many or too few deer, it is not based upon the number of deer seen, or harvested. It is based upon the plants in the habitat. If there are large expanses of hay scented fern in the understory, there are have been too many deer for some time. If invasives like buckthorn, bush honeysuckle and garlic mustard are prominent, the same is true.

Too many deer change the composition of in forests over time, both plant and animal species. If you care about native plants and wildlife - the hundreds of species that we don't hunt - you cannot support the high deer populations we have in much of New York. If the value of your timber matters, you don't want too many deer. If you want regenerating oaks, you need to keep deer numbers down.

Rattler calls coyotes invasive, and he is partially right. While the species contains genetic material from a native species, it is a hybrid, not a native. However, it is beneficial. The loss of wolves created a void. Coyotes fill that void to some degree. "Nature abhors a vacuum." Humans created one.

 

[growalot]

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When I look at habitat to see whether there are too many or too few deer, it is not based upon the number of deer seen, or harvested. It is based upon the plants in the habitat. If there are large expanses of hay scented fern in the understory, there are have been too many deer for some time. If invasives like buckthorn, bush honeysuckle and garlic mustard are prominent, the same is true.

Oh please! now I've really had enough...That flys with me about as much as a lead weighted balloon!...I own properties in a few areas of the state...lets talk camp 8X do I need to tell you what the DMP allotment for that area over the years has been? Yet our camp property which by the way has been in the family for ever...the family actually started out owning the entire Valley 100 yrs ago...  Selling off .. We bought our small 68 acres 38 yrs ago but the family hunted it since they were kids. That said it has filled in with buckthorn...do not blame the deer for that..anyone that deals with buckthorn would say the same thing. Want to talk about wild garlic...Here at home we had no wild garlic...then the neighbor brought in loggers it took just one year for it to go from their place to ours after the loggers equipment brought in the seed. Absolutely nothing to do with deer...and if you do not want a woods filled with ,hay scented fern, Then maintain PROPER logging management. you can't have a "English Woods " canopy with wide spaced trees with wider tree canopies, blocking the sun from hitting the ground and expect under story growth.  Is there nothing some people wont blame deer for..

The state loves blaming deer and so do foresters. The state hates "dealing " with forest management. They have been drag into it over the last few years practically kicking and screaming...foresters want nice straight large caliper trees to harvest Selectively. Taking out the best leaving the younger good ones and scrub to fill in. Funny how I live in 8N  where ppl are seeing 70 deer in fields bordering me ,yet my neighbor allowed 50 acres to go fallow and has areas of solid maple slashings that have ZERO ground  growth due no to light...I have shown pics of the new growth slashings I have and areas of bramble and elderberry an acre in size... Just stop!  

[Padre86]

On 12/27/2016 at 8:44 AM, Four Season Whitetails said:

Yeah i think you are giving them a little to much credit.  If you wait until they are that old to trap and run you will not have the same effect.  Those kind of numbers do not just..Learn..to stay off a property. If they moved next door they would still leave sign and you would still hear them at night.  Yes we still have some and that is not a problem, a few around are a good thing.

 

There are plenty of studies out there to back up what stubborn1VT is saying.  Hunting coyotes normally doesn't do much to their population at a state or region-wide level....it might depress some of their numbers locally in the short term.  Long term, the coyotes are genetically pre-disposed to have larger litters to compensate for any sort of hunting pressure they might be under, which is why their population has expanded so rapidly in the northeast over the last 3-4 decades.  The DEC did a report on coyote history and management back in the 90's (DEC Report)which addressed this very topic:

 

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Coyote densities rarely are reduced through hunting and trapping. In fact, studies have shown an increase in reproductive rates in areas where coyotes were intensively removed. It has been estimated that over 65% of a coyote population (adults and young) would have to be removed annually to overcome their reproductive potential and lead to an overall population decline. Although coyotes die of natural causes (especially juvenile animals), a large proportion of the breeding adults would have to be removed by hunting or trapping, to significantly reduce coyote numbers.

So yes, it's possible to depress their numbers if there is widespread and dedicated hunting and trapping going on statewide.  But the reality is that there is only a small portion of hunters and trappers in NY who specifically target coyotes.

 

 

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On 12/27/2016 at 9:42 AM, Curmudgeon said:

It is a good thing professionals - for the most part - write the rules.

Deer control is a must. Coyote control is a dream.

 

Coyote control is feasible, you just need to be realistic with your expectations.  If a farmer or hunter wants to run dogs or lay traps or call a few coyotes in to thin out the local pack, there is nothing wrong or unrealistic about that.  Hunting them to depress their numbers state-wide is unrealistic...they seem to be far too resilient for that.

On 12/27/2016 at 11:38 AM, Curmudgeon said:

 

Edited December 28, 2016 by Padre86

[Four Season Whitetail's]

On 12/27/2016 at 11:38 AM, Curmudgeon said:

14 minutes ago, Padre86 said:

There are plenty of studies out there to back up what stubborn1VT is saying.  Hunting coyotes normally doesn't do much to their population at a state or region-wide level....it might depress some of their numbers locally in the short term.  Long term, the coyotes are genetically pre-disposed to have larger litters to compensate for any sort of hunting pressure they might be under, which is why their population has expanded so rapidly in the northeast over the last 3-4 decades.  The DEC did a report on coyote history and management back in the 90's (DEC Report)which addressed this very topic:

 

So yes, it's possible to depress their numbers if there is widespread and dedicated hunting and trapping going on statewide.  But the reality is that there is only a small portion of hunters and trappers in NY who specifically target coyotes.

 

 

Coyote control is feasible, you just need to be realistic with your expectations.  If a farmer or hunter wants to run dogs or lay traps or call a few coyotes in to thin out the local pack, there is nothing wrong or unrealistic about that.  Hunting them to depress their numbers state-wide is unrealistic...they seem to be far too resilient for that.

You won't get any arguments out of me on that one. The study was done and speaks of hunting and trapping. That will do very little to rid the vermin.                                   Again one must start at the beginning to have any kind of impact and that is impact!

[gjs4]

If any one had he unfortunate pleasure of hearing MrHurst our lead big game biologist speak down to us at a deer meeting last yr you may have noted his protection of coyote statements (aka excuses). They're fawn killing machines with a national average taking 50% of the fawn crop. Everything has a good side and yotes do please the DEC for their attrition imposed- but they're masters of dropping enough offspring to maximize carrying capacity and are savage efficient game killers. They're also a bizatch to kill. The fact we can't really hunt or trap them 3/4s of the year (factoring in deer season considerations and trapping ending earlier than any other state....mind you many don't even have seasons on them)- they have a given advantage.


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[Curmudgeon]

I'll trust the biologist over your myths every time.

[gjs4]

Next myth- You're a man of depth and worthwhile commentary.


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[dbHunterNY]

it'd be a red flag to me if a biologist argued against the idea of coyotes taking a considerable amount of fawns.  i do agree that coyotes don't run down too many adult deer that are strong and healthy versus wounded somehow to slow them down first.  fawn recruitment is an important part of where the population is headed though; up or down.  it'd be a red flag to me if a biologist argued that taking coyotes doesn't significantly affect fawn recruitment in your immediate area.  deer and coyotes both are resilient.  any half hearted and minimal efforts to reduce either do at least something but not much.  smart biologists have told me this and i've seen the proof in the real world that actually backs that up.  we had a stellar year for fawn recruitment based on field observations and harvest data collected.  still had enough coyotes to where each trail cam card pull i'd get one somewhere.  they take some hard knocks by us and weren't in great numbers but not wiped out and the deer did great.  every year we come up with a harvest objective based on what situation the deer are in.  there's an X number of deer to eat and either hunters or coyotes (really predatory animals) will eat them.  you shoot less of both or more of both.  you can't have it any other way.  maybe your utopia has tons of deer and no coyotes but i doubt it.  where there's food there's always something around to eat it.

[growalot]

It's the deep snows in areas of the state that get the adult deer...coyotes can maintain a top snow crust run where deer can't and tire easily. I see a significant increase in coyote tracks here when the snows get belly or more deep. The thing is unless there is aerial work being done, you won't find too many out in the woods in snows that deep. So who knows what killed that carcass found in the first thaw or spring...

[Four Season Whitetail's]

18 minutes ago, dbHunterNY said:

it'd be a red flag to me if a biologist argued against the idea of coyotes taking a considerable amount of fawns.  i do agree that coyotes don't run down too many adult deer that are strong and healthy versus wounded somehow to slow them down first.  fawn recruitment is an important part of where the population is headed though; up or down.  it'd be a red flag to me if a biologist argued that taking coyotes doesn't significantly affect fawn recruitment in your immediate area.  deer and coyotes both are resilient.  any half hearted and minimal efforts to reduce either do at least something but not much.  smart biologists have told me this and i've seen the proof in the real world that actually backs that up.  we had a stellar year for fawn recruitment based on field observations and harvest data collected.  still had enough coyotes to where each trail cam card pull i'd get one somewhere.  they take some hard knocks by us and weren't in great numbers but not wiped out and the deer did great.  every year we come up with a harvest objective based on what situation the deer are in.  there's an X number of deer to eat and either hunters or coyotes (really predatory animals) will eat them.  you shoot less of both or more of both.  you can't have it any other way.  maybe your utopia has tons of deer and no coyotes but i doubt it.  where there's food there's always something around to eat it.

Yup!!  You have people that do real world everyday stuff then you have book readers that believe everything they read. Yotes will wipe out your deer and your small game if their numbers explode in an area and with only having a short time to hunt and trap them the guy with the problem will never catch up with them. They are way to crafty. You have to declare full war on the vermin, do whatever needs to be done to fix your problem and let the chips fall where they will. Research is right saying that their numbers will rebound because under normal conditions you can't take but a few of them and then the pack rebuilds!   Take out 8-10 in one spot and you will dispose of your problem quick. That's everyday Research!  Hands On!

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, dbHunterNY said:

 

Edited December 30, 2016 by Four Season Whitetails