Predator Control Is A Must!

[NFA-ADK]

We should tell the DEC the same thing about deer!  The more they kill the more that get reproduced. 

[Curmudgeon]

Sorry if I have been scarce most of this year. I didn't have time to argue or deal with misinformation. I'll try to be more attentive as we get into the new year.

If you are new to this forum, if you want to learn about coyotes from anecdotal, visceral, reactionaries, if you don't care about facts, if you are afraid of wild dogs, you came to the right place.

If you want to learn actual facts, if you care to be ecologically literate, go to Google Scholar and type in searches for coyotes. You will find that, yes, coyotes can be controlled. However, it must be done intensively, continually, and there is NO ecological benefit. The cost/benefit analysis is terrible. The cost are high and benefits aren't worth the bother.

If this photo from earlier this year at one of our research sites, causes any emotional reaction besides a smile, you may need professional help.

 

 

[grampy]

10 minutes ago, Curmudgeon said:

Sorry if I have been scarce most of this year. I didn't have time to argue or deal with misinformation. I'll try to be more attentive as we get into the new year.

If you are new to this forum, if you want to learn about coyotes from anecdotal, visceral, reactionaries, if you don't care about facts, if you are afraid of wild dogs, you came to the right place.

If you want to learn actual facts, if you care to be ecologically literate, go to Google Scholar and type in searches for coyotes. You will find that, yes, coyotes can be controlled. However, it must be done intensively, continually, and there is NO ecological benefit. The cost/benefit analysis is terrible. The cost are high and benefits aren't worth the bother.

If this photo from earlier this year at one of our research sites, causes any emotional reaction besides a smile, you may need professional help.

 

 

I've seen that on my hunting properties, and I wasn't smiling! But I will say again.The more coyotes we kill, the more deer we have on our properties. Simple enough for me.  Welcome back.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, Curmudgeon said:

Sorry if I have been scarce most of this year. I didn't have time to argue or deal with misinformation. I'll try to be more attentive as we get into the new year.

If you are new to this forum, if you want to learn about coyotes from anecdotal, visceral, reactionaries, if you don't care about facts, if you are afraid of wild dogs, you came to the right place.

If you want to learn actual facts, if you care to be ecologically literate, go to Google Scholar and type in searches for coyotes. You will find that, yes, coyotes can be controlled. However, it must be done intensively, continually, and there is NO ecological benefit. The cost/benefit analysis is terrible. The cost are high and benefits aren't worth the bother.

If this photo from earlier this year at one of our research sites, causes any emotional reaction besides a smile, you may need professional help.

 

 

Now look at the age group there? Some say they can't be controlled to any extent? Family group you would say... Pecking order is in place.... Now if something was to happen at the den site a year or two ago how many would be in that picture? If they were classified in this state as vermin as is done in others and a year round season was in place it would be very simple to put a massive dent in any population that was out of control.                                           Just like anything else... you have to start at the beginning!!

[chrisw]

Other states have year round seasons and they can't put a massive dent in the population. Maybe you should go to other states and teach them since you seem to know something noone else does...

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[Rattler]

Doc, hunting coyotes in the spring and summer is great fun when you hunt at night.  The air is cool, the bugs are not as bad, you can use insect repellent, camo isn't even required and the shooting gives you good practice.  They are much easier to hunt at night too.  I think it would be great to be able to hunt during the spring and summer at night.  I also think it would catch on and do a lot to keep them from getting to be a big problem in many areas.  If people will do what they must to shoot woodchuck during the day in the summer, they would do what they need to in order to hunt coyote at night in summer too.

As far as facts go, this statement above is interesting.  " There is NO ecological benefit "

They may be hard to control, but they change the balance of the ecological environment when they invade any area where they have never been before, at least in recent times, just like an invasive species does.  So to say there would be no benefit is not factual.  Of course some may have different opinions on what a benefit is.

Edited December 27, 2016 by Rattler

[Rattler]

7 minutes ago, chrisw said:

Other states have year round seasons and they can't put a massive dent in the population. Maybe you should go to other states and teach them since you seem to know something noone else does...

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But they do keep the population level.  How bad would it be if they didn't have a year round season in those states?

[chrisw]

But they do keep the population level.  How bad would it be if they didn't have a year round season in those states?

Every property has a carrying capacity, coyote numbers are drastically affected by disease when the numbers get way out of whack(ex. Mange) and coyotes will not stay where they can't find food and let's not forget coyotes are territorial, they don't intermingle with outsiders. So some stories I hear of a bunch of different packs all living on one property is very hard to believe. I'm not arguing against taking coyotes, I take every one I can LEGALLY. Where the blind hatred for these critters comes from is beyond me. I think for the vast majority they are just a scapegoat for dwindling deer numbers which are most likely more related to your trigger finger than any coyote. A hunter can kill 6 deer in a season and post pictures up on this site and we all praise him, if a coyote killed 6 deer in one year we label it as the devil. Coyotes kill (thousands?) of deer every year in NY? Hunters kill hundreds of thousands and yet we point fingers at them for problems we don't want to look into the mirror for. I'm sure there are areas with more than healthy populations of yotes, but it seems everyone you hear from says it. Quite honestly it's disheartening that on a hunting forum in our local area that so many hunters are misinformed on coyote behavior.


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[dbHunterNY]

coyotes are an important part of the ecosystem.  they're the clean up crew after deer season.  where we are there's plenty of food and cover for them to thrive if we let them.  in the area we shoot doe for meat and to promote opportunity to make up for our restricted buck take.  we have and like full freezers.  we have the yote populations kept in check so we can co-exist and the fawns don't get hammered too bad.  Curmudgeon's trail cam photo is one that'd be pretty common for most of us we just don't see it as much, despite it happens.  we have groups that hunt with dogs and make our season work.  each year each group gets around 30 coyotes in the general area once deer season ends and before the yote season ends.  they like doing it so it's not really an expense.  if they couldn't use dogs and hunters could just call them in, i'd worry.  not nearly as effective then and i'd really like to see the season extended if that were to happen.

[Four Season Whitetail's]

1 hour ago, chrisw said:

Other states have year round seasons and they can't put a massive dent in the population. Maybe you should go to other states and teach them since you seem to know something noone else does...

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Have to have a problem before you need to fix it. Many places in Ny will never have a problem but it does not take a lot of smarts to know where to start if you do have a problem and hunting and/or trapping for a couple months wont cut it.

[Trial153]

Plenty of deer hunter talk about hunting coyotes however actually getting off their asses and doing it is a different story.
I have never once been approached by any hunter to hunt predators on any of our properties.

[Rattler]

1 hour ago, Trial153 said:

Plenty of deer hunter talk about hunting coyotes however actually getting off their asses and doing it is a different story.
I have never once been approached by any hunter to hunt predators on any of our properties.

How many hunters approach you to hunt anything on your properties?

[Trial153]

How many hunters approach you to hunt anything on your properties?

Less then a handful over a bunch of years.

[nyantler]

If we eradicate the Coyote... won't the coyote hunters be all up in arms when there aren't any to hunt? What them? Eradicate what ever killed the coyotes?

[diplomat019]

1 hour ago, Trial153 said:

Less then a handful over a bunch of years.

offer the land up lol

[wheelieman]

Im assuming most people really dont want to hear this, The real 2 reasons we have a hunting season,

1. The claims paid out by auto insurance companies, 

2. The funds from hunting license sales, 

To think otherwise is foolish, Thats why its a privilege not a right, 

[diplomat019]

49 minutes ago, wheelieman said:

Im assuming most people really dont want to hear this, The real 2 reasons we have a hunting season,

1. The claims paid out by auto insurance companies, 

2. The funds from hunting license sales, 

To think otherwise is foolish, Thats why its a privilege not a right, 

Can you back any of this up with facts?   

 

 

[Trial153]

Can you back any of this up with facts?   
 
 

It's the Internet. If it sounds good it must be true.

[diplomat019]

10 minutes ago, Trial153 said:

It's the Internet. If it sounds good it must be true.

 

[wooly]

I'll tell ya what.

It would take one SICK and TWISTED individual to wipe out a pack of pups at a den sight, all in the name of a deer that will have a hard time crossing the street safely until next season.

BUT, I have to admit I'm not really surprised by the despicable actions of some of todays "deer hunters".

 

 

[DirtTime]

I hate talking about the yote issue these days. I agree with wooly on killing a den of pups would just be cruel.

Not every area is the same, what you see in your yard might not be the same in someone else's yard. This is the huge issue I have. You cannot tell people they are wrong about having an issue unless you know for a fact they don't. How does one determine Jonny Rock has no issue while Jerry Bean does? The DEC ( pfffffffffffffft!!!!!!!!! )? Have you been on Jonny's or Jerry's land? 

[Doc]

Here are some observations that are kind of peripheral to the topic:

I remember that for a good chunk of my life coyotes were like the mountain lions here in our stretch of NYS. Not a one present. Not even rumors of them. At that time coyotes were some kind of western critter far from our state borders. It is strange that this supposed deer scourge is now somewhere between common to plentiful everywhere here in NYS, and the deer herd has coincidentally reached the point where several WMUs are declared in a near state of emergency because the DEC claims they are eating themselves out of house and home and jeopardizing the reestablishment of woodland flora. Can anybody explain why that is. We seem to have the coyotes and deer populations spiking at the same time. If coyotes are eating all the deer what's wrong with the lazy coyotes in areas 8 and 9 that they can't keep up with the deer populations.

This same point about the decades (centuries?) that coyotes never existed here, brings on another curious question. How is it now that they are touted as an ecological necessity? I mean other than being a new source of rabies, distemper, and mange for some of the more normal resident predators of the area, how did the coyote become a "must have" predator in NY?

So anyways, there does seem to be a whole lot of urban legend that is not really standing up to historical evidence, or so it seems. I'm sure somebody has logical answers to these things, and I for one would like to hear them.

[Rattler]

12 hours ago, nyantler said:

If we eradicate the Coyote... won't the coyote hunters be all up in arms when there aren't any to hunt? What them? Eradicate what ever killed the coyotes?

This is like asking what would happen if we killed all the rats in NYC.  Good things.  Good things would happen.  I long for the days when there were no coyote in the Catskills.

[nyantler]

8 minutes ago, Rattler said:

This is like asking what would happen if we killed all the rats in NYC.  Good things.  Good things would happen.  I long for the days when there were no coyote in the Catskills.

If there were millions of coyotes in NY I would tend to agree, but 20-30,000 coyotes does not make for an epidemic. I agree with the topic of the thread, predators should be controlled... but anyone talking about complete eradication is speaking from a position of ignorance... and my point about  those  that enjoy hunting coyotes is still valid. Why are deer hunters more important than coyote hunters. Contrary to popular belief there are some who like coyote hunting better than deer hunting

[growalot]

Doc  you hit it with the ecological necessity...Gosh what it the world did mother nature do here in NYS BEFORE the arrival of coyotes? Oh...that's right, she had great fox populations...go figure..but granted you don't see too many fox running off carrying deer fawns in their mouths. What you did see were fields of deer and fox feeding together...deer on forbs and fox "mousing"..

I know there is someone(s) in our area taking out the coyotes now...more power to them. For when we were seeing them during the day, we weren't seeing our fox and rabbits. When we stopped seeing them, the fox sightings went way up...my garden produce also doubled because the rodents eating them went away...we see more rabbits. Yes guys I know fox eat rabbits..just stating the facts for here...The rodent population seems to keep the fox fed better than the coyotes.... So I believe like most eco systems, take away one thing and if you have a similar species around...it will take up the slack. I give fox a pass...coyotes in season will never get a pass from me.

Edited December 28, 2016 by growalot