NY FFL's busted for selling AR-15's????

[Mr VJP]

A couple  on Long Island, NY gun dealers were busted for violations of  ridiculous  and oppressive "assault weapon" laws, forced upon law abiding gun  owners and dealers, by lawmakers looking to criminalize semi-auto firearms they  don't like the looks of.

        Under New York State law, only police officers, peace  officers, and duly authorized members of the military are legally permitted to  possess assault weapons. One category of an assault weapon is defined as a semi-automatic  rifle with the ability to accept a magazine carrying more than five rounds of  ammunition and that must also have at least two additional characteristics.  These additional characteristics can include a folding or telescoping stock, a  protruding pistol grip, a bayonet mount, a flash suppressor or threaded barrel  designed to accommodate a flash suppressor, or a grenade launcher.

        Shop owners were  breaking the law by selling weapons that appeared as though they lacked the  required characteristics of an assault weapon. However, the stock  was easily modified, thereby making them full-fledged assault weapons. 

   

    What was easily modified to make these firearms so dangerous??

   

    "A pin in the fixed stock of a AR-15 type weapon was easily  removable making the stock collapsible".

   

   

    These NY FFL's have now been arrested and face a possible 15 years in Federal  prison for "flooding the streets with dangerous assault  weapons".

   

   

    If you are one of those people who think these assault weapon laws are  reasonable, common sense laws that are no threat to you and your hunting  rifles, think again!!

[Culvercreek hunt club]

so if a remington 7400 had a pistol grip stock installed and a threaded end for a thread on muzzle brake....it would be classified as such?

[Mr VJP]

Yes!

All it needs is a collapsible pistol grip stock to put you in prison for a long time.  But they will usually let you go with a huge fine, probation and the loss of all your 2nd Amendment rights.

Why do you need such an evil weapon anyway??

: ;)

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Yes!

All it needs is a collapsible pistol grip stock to put you in prison for a long time.  But they will usually let you go with a huge fine, probation and the loss of all your 2nd Amendment rights.

Why do you need such an evil weapon anyway??

: ;)

I don't think is even has to be folding or collapsible if it is pistol grip

[Mr VJP]

The law says it needs two of those things if it is semi auto and has the capacity to accept a magazine of more than five rounds.

I assume that also means a Marlin tube fed semi auto .22 that has a folding stock.

[Dinsdale]

Looks like they had a heads up but decided to continue;

http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news/local/long_island&id=7965139

" Both T&T Gunnery and Hunter Sports were on notice that civilians who purchased these weapons from their stores had been arrested and charged with illegal possession of an assault weapon in both Nassau and Suffolk counties, but they continued to sell these weapons"

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The law says it needs two of those things if it is semi auto and has the capacity to accept a magazine of more than five rounds.

I assume that also means a Marlin tube fed semi auto .22 that has a folding stock.

No remington 7400...mine in .30-06...external clip.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Hold on VJP, I did alot of research into this when I built my SKS. To be an assault rifle, the gun needs to be able to accept a removable clip capable of more than 5 rounds AND include two of the defined features. You can have a collapsable stock and a pistol grip, but if you then include a flash suppressor, it is illegal. I put a muzzle brake on mine and it was fine.

That is what I was told by local LEOs, and they inspected the gun to verify.

[Mr VJP]

Does the SKS have a removable magazine??

I was not sure about the tube magazine, but I believe the laws are different for a shotgun vs a rifle.  The collapsible stock and pistol grip may be OK on a shotgun, but may not on the rifle.  These FFL's were busted for AR-15 rifles.

This is where these laws really get out of control.  They are so convoluted and so misunderstood, even many LEO's don't know for certain what is legal and what is not.  And they may even vary from county to county in NY state.  Often this leads to arrests to be on the safe side, leaving the hapless gun owner in a legal quagmire and forced to spend thousands to defend himself in court, with no ability to recover damages when proven innocent.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I was not sure about the tube magazine, but I believe the laws are different for a shotgun vs a rifle.  The collapsible stock and pistol grip may be OK on a shotgun, but may not on the rifle.  These FFL's were busted for AR-15 rifles.

This is where these laws really get out of control.  They are so convoluted and so misunderstood, even many LEO's don't know for certain what is legal and what is not.  And they may even vary from county to county in NY state.  Often this leads to arrests to be on the safe side, leaving the hapless gun owner in a legal quagmire and forced to spend thousands to defend himself in court, with no ability to recover damages when proven innocent.

Opps, I read that wrong. Yes, my SKS had the removable clips. 30 rounders to be exact.

Is it known exactly what these guys were selling? If they were collapsible stock with a pistol grip and a flash suppressor, then they should have known better. Im not saying that I agree with the state's definition of classification of "assault weapons", Im just saying that the law is what it is and if you dont follow it, you pay the price.

[Mr VJP]

"the gun needs to be able to accept a removable clip capable of more than 5 rounds AND include two of the defined features. You can have a collapsible stock and a pistol grip."

I was referring to this line.  I do not believe that is correct on a rifle.  Maybe on a shotgun, but not a rifle.

P.S.  On the heads up they got, the rifles were modified by the buyers after the sale.  The FFL can not be held liable for what happens to the gun after they sell it.  They have all pleaded not guilty and were released without bail.

Smells like harassment designed to put them out of business by forcing them to spend tons in court, IMHO.

[WNYBuckHunter]

the gun needs to be able to accept a removable clip capable of more than 5 rounds AND include two of the defined features. You can have a collapsible stock and a pistol grip.

I was referring to this line.  I do not believe that is correct on a rifle.  Maybe on a shotgun, but not a rifle.

Just saying what I was told by LEO when they inspected the gun. Mine had a pinned folding stock, pistol grip, muzzle brake and 30 round mags. I was told that I could have had the collapsible stock as well because I was looking into that before I sold it.

[Doewhacker]

"Im just saying that the law is what it is and if you dont follow it, you pay the price."

Especially when they were warned to stop, seems like if one wanted to pick up a legal battle it would be better to do with out charges against you.

[Mr VJP]

Are 30 round mags still legal in NY??  I thought they were illegal now.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I am really confused now...lol. I read it as----is it can take a clip of higher capacity than 5 and you have two features it IS considered an assult weapon.

so to recap. if my hinting rifle ...which has a screwed on aftermarket muzzlebrake....I change the stock to have a pistol grip stock....I have 2 components (screwed end capable of putting on a flash supressor and a pistol grip) and it is an external clip gun and they sell 3o round mags for it....it IS an assult weapon under ths law?

right? ???

[Mr VJP]

Do you hear that knock on your door now?

???

RUN!!

;D

[steve863]

I don't know, I surely am not up to speed on what is considered and assault weapon in NYS.  However, when I walk into a gun shop these days the majority of long guns that I see on the shelves are military styled weapons.  I would think store owners selling them would know what constitutes legal or illegal since the state has some stringent regulations on them.  If they were dumb enough to sell what is considered illegal just to make some fast money, then I guess they got what was coming to them. 

[Mr VJP]

That is precisely the point.  They were legal when they sold them and modified after the sale.  That didn't stop this prosecutor from arresting them though.

[Dinsdale]

That is precisely the point.  They were legal when they sold them and modified after the sale.  That didn't stop this prosecutor from arresting them though.

I don't read it that way; am I missing something?

Rice said that shop owners were breaking the law by temporarily modifying the weapons to appear as though they lacked the required characteristics of an assault weapon. However, the temporary modification was easily reversible, thereby making them full-fledged assault weapons. For example, a pin was placed in the stock of a weapon in an attempt to prevent its collapse. However, the pins were designed to be easily removable making the stock collapsible.

[Mr VJP]

Those pins were not placed in the stocks by the FFL.  They are made that way.  That is the problem.  Keep in mind you are getting that from a posting by ABC News.  This NY D.A. doesn't know which end of a firearm is the dangerous end.

I don't think having an AR with a collapsible stock makes it a lot more dangerous either.  But, like some say, the law is the law.  Question is, how did we allow that to become law?

[steve863]

That is precisely the point.  They were legal when they sold them and modified after the sale.  That didn't stop this prosecutor from arresting them though.

I don't read it that way either.  I guess these boys will have to prove it in court.  If I were a seller of such firearms I would want to leave NO doubts in anyones mind since there are some stringent laws regulating them.  To me this issue is no different than antler restrictions.  Everyone knows that I am against antler restrictions, but if I hunt in a unit that has antler restrictions and I am caught killing a spike, then I'm screwed and deserve the fine.  Bitching and moaning that the law is wrong won't get me off the hook.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Are 30 round mags still legal in NY??  I thought they were illegal now.

Prebans are fine

[Mr VJP]

Are LEO's fully trained to identify a "pre-ban" magazine?

How can you tell which are and are not pre-ban?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Are LEO's fully trained to identify a "pre-ban" magazine?

How can you tell which are and are not pre-ban?

Couldnt tell you that. When I bought mine, they were marked pre-ban. I had a few I bought through Cheaperthandirt that I sold and the one I sold with the gun was from a gun show.

[Dinsdale]

Those pins were not placed in the stocks by the FFL.  They are made that way.  That is the problem.  Keep in mind you are getting that from a posting by ABC News.  This NY D.A. doesn't know which end of a firearm is the dangerous end.

Hear you there.

Don't have enough knowledge on the "black gun" thing; not my interest to own one.

Does seem to muddy the waters since all this stuff is in all the catalogs for sale to bolt on yourself.

But for those that do own; hope this is doesn't screw you over in the future.