Resized .223 into .222

[chas0218]

So I took my time and heated the cases a little and this way the end result. Would you guys be worried about heading the case? I had to get out pretty warm not top the point it was melting but warm. It cooled fairly quickly while I was working it in the die. The ones standing up on the right have slight kinks/abnormalities I can barely feel with a pick. Would you guys reload the brass and see how it shoots? Only thing I really did wad reshape the shoulder and trim the length. Dummy round cycled fine with. no issues

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[shawnhu]

What you attempted to do was anneal the brass. I'm not sure if you did it right or not, but if not done right, could result in damage and/or injury.

Research brass annealing before loading those up.


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[airedale]

Using a sturdy press you should be able to run your 223 brass through your full length 222 sizing die with a light film of sizing lube on the outside of the case. You will then have to trim your cases to 222 length and then chamfer the inside and outside of the case mouth. If any annealing is done it would be done after the sizing operation described above. The dents and lines on your cases pictured are probably from using too much case lube, those dented cases reloaded with a moderate load when fired in your 222 chamber should fireform the whole case perfectly to the 222 chamber and remove those dents.

Al

Edited October 15, 2016 by airedale

[chas0218]

Using a sturdy press you should be able to run your 223 brass through your full length 222 sizing die with a light film of sizing lube on the outside of the case. You will then have to trim your cases to 222 length and then chamfer the inside and outside of the case mouth. If any annealing is done it would be done after the sizing operation described above. The dents and lines on your cases pictured are probably from using too much case lube, those dented cases reloaded with a moderate load when fired in your 222 chamber should fireform the whole case perfectly to the 222 chamber and remove those dents.
Al

I tried to use the least amount of lube possible, I have a lube pad and rolled them. Should've resulted in a light film, I'm using Rcbs dies but no matter what I did it seemed like they all dented like that if not worse. If I fired those dented ones or the ones that were worse you don't think it would have any ill effects? All have been cut to length according to my Nosler manual.

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[chas0218]

What you attempted to do was anneal the brass. I'm not sure if you did it right or not, but if not done right, could result in damage and/or injury.

Research brass annealing before loading those up.


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I did look into annealing and although I didn't have any fancy fixtures I feel as though what I did allowed me to resize the brass easier annealed it. From what I have read annealing shouldn't effect the gun only the brass by extending brass life , by softening it. From what I have read annealing only softens the brass to allow easier re sizing and extend brass life. Not many people anneal brass anymore.

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[airedale]

It is a balancing act between using too much or too little lube, too much severe dents and creases and not enough a possible stuck case. From what I am seeing in your pictures there is too much lube, it gets squeezed down as the case gets sized and has no place to go causing dents.

I once formed a bunch of 25-06 cases out of 270 and 30-06 cases and would get an occasional shoulder dent, I loaded and fired them with no problem. Any cases that get too bungled up I would toss. 

Al

[thphtm]

Buy yourself a small can of Imperial Case Lube , The best I ever used in the past 50 years.

[chas0218]

OK thanks guys I'll give it a shot, my dad shoots a little of .223 and find a ton at the ranges. Locally I haven't found a good source for .222 brass so this is a nice alternative. I was thinking of upgrading my dies to carbide do you think that would help or is the carbide mostly for longevity?

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[shawnhu]

I did look into annealing and although I didn't have any fancy fixtures I feel as though what I did allowed me to resize the brass easier annealed it. From what I have read annealing shouldn't effect the gun only the brass by extending brass life , by softening it. From what I have read annealing only softens the brass to allow easier re sizing and extend brass life. Not many people anneal brass anymore.

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I do. But there's a risk in over-annealed brass. It will separate and fail. I try to anneal before sizing also.


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[airedale]

The best route to take if you really get serious about 223 to 222 is to get a set of dedicated case forming dies, they do a better job of sizing-forming without so many rejects.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/667933/rcbs-case-forming-2-die-set-222-remington-from-223-remington

[Larry]

I would like to ask why would you take all that time to make 222 brass out of 223 brass, when you can go on line and buy 222 brass.

Are you using 223 brass or military 5.56 brass for resizing. Military brass is harder than 223 brass and you also have the crimped primer pocket to deal with. You may also want to trim the 223 brass back some before sizing.

[chas0218]

On 10/15/2016 at 5:07 PM, shawnhu said:

 

I do. But there's a risk in over-annealed brass. It will separate and fail. I try to anneal before sizing also.


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Yeah I read a little about that, I think it needs many heat cycles to do that...I think, but I'm no expert.

On 10/15/2016 at 5:38 PM, airedale said:

The best route to take if you really get serious about 223 to 222 is to get a set of dedicated case forming dies, they do a better job of sizing-forming without so many rejects.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/667933/rcbs-case-forming-2-die-set-222-remington-from-223-remington

Thanks, I'll look into them.

15 hours ago, Larry said:

I would like to ask why would you take all that time to make 222 brass out of 223 brass, when you can go on line and buy 222 brass.

Are you using 223 brass or military 5.56 brass for resizing. Military brass is harder than 223 brass and you also have the crimped primer pocket to deal with. You may also want to trim the 223 brass back some before sizing.

No 5.56 military stuff, my dad has a lot of brass and it's free so instead of throwing it out or scrapping it I figured I could make some .222 brass out of it. Not to mention it is becoming harder and harder to find rounds and not the cheapest caliber on the market.

[slickrockpack]

First, welcome to the world of cartridge forming, it is addictive and quite fun.

when using range brass or any brass of different manufacture, especially military brass, you will find a variation in wall thickness, this ofcourse effects the case capacity, which dictates the amount of powder you're going to use and type, to achieve the results desired, namely an accurate load.

in all cases you should, post forming and sizing but prior to loading, fill your cases to the brim with water ( NOT to be done anywhere ANYWHERE near hot lead) and measure the volume of the cartridges, sorting them by volume then again by primer pocket dimensions, but that's not a big issue as in a long life of reforming you will reform the primer pockets several times anyway.

In going from 223/556 to 222 the full length resizing will not need annealing, the factory annealing is enough, but you will eventually anneal anyway, so learning to do it correctly is very simple and easy.

I started out with hot lead annealing and was pretty happy with it, sticking with it for decades, I preferred it to various pan methods that were popular then, which amounted to standing cases up in a baking pan, heating the necks and or shoulders then knocking them over into the water to quench.....this has a positive in that you can't anneal the head this way, which is critical, the heat sink of water won't allow it, but it leads to much debate about equal annealing as one side of the case is going to quench sooner than the other, etc etc etc,

So I stuck with hot lead and liked it, other than the lead fumes you get at high heat, which is needed to anneal properly.

then about 20 and some years ago a chance meeting with Ken Howell had me trying his preferred method which I found superior to the lead method.

in a nutshell Ken modified a hand drill to hold the Lee shell holders and chucked his cases in the drill, slowly rotating them under  propane torch tip.

the reason I never liked the torches is I have difficulty seeing blue, which is the color you are looking for in a proper anneal, Ken solved this with a quick trip to the welding supply shop and making a mark with temperature sensitive pencils on his brass, the crayon set for color change at 660F is accurate to within a degree or two.  Perfect.

as a gift that year Ken gave me a signed copy of his then new book, "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges for Rifles and Handguns", by Ken Howell.

 an irreplaceable data source saving hundreds of hours of looking up dimensions, it's all in one place right at your fingertips,

I would recommend getting a copy.  If you can't find it on amazon try bookfinder (dot) com

to answer your carbide die question, there is no reason to need carbides in a rifle reloading operation,  the selling point being you can skip the lube

but if you lube everything anyway you will notice a marked decrease in force needed to resize a lubed case vs. a non lubed case even in carbide...over tens of thousands of rounds that is a felt difference in the shoulder and wrist. So skip the carbide, especially with the new spray lubes, it's not a hassle at all and makes sizing smoother.

 

[chas0218]

31 minutes ago, slickrockpack said:

First, welcome to the world of cartridge forming, it is addictive and quite fun.

when using range brass or any brass of different manufacture, especially military brass, you will find a variation in wall thickness, this ofcourse effects the case capacity, which dictates the amount of powder you're going to use and type, to achieve the results desired, namely an accurate load.

in all cases you should, post forming and sizing but prior to loading, fill your cases to the brim with water ( NOT to be done anywhere ANYWHERE near hot lead) and measure the volume of the cartridges, sorting them by volume then again by primer pocket dimensions, but that's not a big issue as in a long life of reforming you will reform the primer pockets several times anyway.

In going from 223/556 to 222 the full length resizing will not need annealing, the factory annealing is enough, but you will eventually anneal anyway, so learning to do it correctly is very simple and easy.

I started out with hot lead annealing and was pretty happy with it, sticking with it for decades, I preferred it to various pan methods that were popular then, which amounted to standing cases up in a baking pan, heating the necks and or shoulders then knocking them over into the water to quench.....this has a positive in that you can't anneal the head this way, which is critical, the heat sink of water won't allow it, but it leads to much debate about equal annealing as one side of the case is going to quench sooner than the other, etc etc etc,

So I stuck with hot lead and liked it, other than the lead fumes you get at high heat, which is needed to anneal properly.

then about 20 and some years ago a chance meeting with Ken Howell had me trying his preferred method which I found superior to the lead method.

in a nutshell Ken modified a hand drill to hold the Lee shell holders and chucked his cases in the drill, slowly rotating them under  propane torch tip.

the reason I never liked the torches is I have difficulty seeing blue, which is the color you are looking for in a proper anneal, Ken solved this with a quick trip to the welding supply shop and making a mark with temperature sensitive pencils on his brass, the crayon set for color change at 660F is accurate to within a degree or two.  Perfect.

as a gift that year Ken gave me a signed copy of his then new book, "Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges for Rifles and Handguns", by Ken Howell.

 an irreplaceable data source saving hundreds of hours of looking up dimensions, it's all in one place right at your fingertips,

I would recommend getting a copy.  If you can't find it on amazon try bookfinder (dot) com

to answer your carbide die question, there is no reason to need carbides in a rifle reloading operation,  the selling point being you can skip the lube

but if you lube everything anyway you will notice a marked decrease in force needed to resize a lubed case vs. a non lubed case even in carbide...over tens of thousands of rounds that is a felt difference in the shoulder and wrist. So skip the carbide, especially with the new spray lubes, it's not a hassle at all and makes sizing smoother.

 

Thanks for the help I'll look into the book. Right now my Nosler and Sierra reloading manuals have all the dimensions for the cases, but I will look into the book you mentioned more for annealing. When annealing the brass is there a point that the brass is too hot and is basically ruined? I was thinking that the carbide would be better to form the cases without needing to be lubed. I like saving money so the less i need to spend the better. I need to start annealing my .270 brass because the necks are starting to crack after 5 or 6 reloads.

[shawnhu]

Thanks for the help I'll look into the book. Right now my Nosler and Sierra reloading manuals have all the dimensions for the cases, but I will look into the book you mentioned more for annealing. When annealing the brass is there a point that the brass is too hot and is basically ruined? I was thinking that the carbide would be better to form the cases without needing to be lubed. I like saving money so the less i need to spend the better. I need to start annealing my .270 brass because the necks are starting to crack after 5 or 6 reloads.

Yes, too hot and the brass will lose its strength and separate upon firing. Especially dangerous by the head because the pressure there is towards the bolt, vs the neck where the pressure is generally towards the chamber walls.


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[Culvercreek hunt club]

I have a couple of the crayons becasue I needed to hit specific temps for the steel I was using while black smithing. They are no brainers, not expensive and very accurate. Would work perfect for this. 

[slickrockpack]

sure thing.

I don't mean the finished dimensions for the cases, what I meant and poorly said was, say you want to make some .369-30 Purdey brass... you, or at least I have to then look up the dimensions of the finished .369-30 Purdey and then go through my whole book of comparable brass and see what has the closest rim size, thickness, etc etc etc 

OR I can just open Ken's book and flip to .369-30 Purdey  on page 284 and read the cases that can make that cartridge are; .369 NEPurdey or .450 NE Basic using RCBS form and trim dies...

Need to load for your .270 Ren ??(not a typo, that is a "n", R-E-N,  page 176 instructs to simply fire form from 22 Hornet brass with inert filler...

much simpler, as I am, as well.

 

[slickrockpack]

9 minutes ago, Culvercreek hunt club said:

I have a couple of the crayons becasue I needed to hit specific temps for the steel I was using while black smithing. They are no brainers, not expensive and very accurate. Would work perfect for this. 

exactly!!

so much easier than in different lighting determining what straw is or isn't, don't care if it's straw or which shade of red, when the crayon mark turns color it's there!

simple and lazy, like me..

[Culvercreek hunt club]

6 minutes ago, slickrockpack said:

exactly!!

so much easier than in different lighting determining what straw is or isn't, don't care if it's straw or which shade of red, when the crayon mark turns color it's there!

simple and lazy, like me..

I used it to hit forge welding and heat treating/ temper temps. 

[Larry]

Why not just have your 222 re-chambered to 223. You may have more time on your hand then I do. Just doesn’t seem its cost value added.

[nosquibs]

I think I'd try running that brass thru a .223 die first to get it back to what it should be, maybe even run it thru an 'M' die then final size to .222