Question about hunting with a pistol

[WNYBuckHunter]

Do you guys think it would be feasible to take a deer, at short range, with a 40 cal handgun? Ive been tossing the idea around of carrying my XD40 with me during regular gun season in the hopes that I can get a deer to within less than 25 yards, but Im a little unsure about how effective that round would be. What type of bullet would you use? I normally have lots of regular FMJ around for target shooting, and Hydra-shok for carry purposes, but what would I use for hunting? 

[Santamour123]

Ted Nugent has a few shows he has done where he has taken Pigs Fallow deer and even a Sikka buck at distances out to 100yrds with his 10mm  and realy not a big difference from a hot .40

[Pygmy]

At 25 yards or less, with a broadside shot at the ribcage, the .40 should certainly do the trick... A .38 special would work under those circumstances..

I don't know what bullets are available for the .40, but I suspect that any expanding type bullet would work....

Years ago, many deer were shot with rounds like the .38-40, which is essentially a pistol round, with plain lead bullets or jacketed bullets in the same velocity range as your .40 cal..

[jusputtn]

Yes.  Particularly because your thinking about what the effective range of the round would be.  I'd search some of the ammo manufacturer's websites to see if any 40 ammo is designed for hunting.  I searched on Hydra-Shock and saw it described as a rapid expansion bullet producing a wide but shallow wound channel.  Think I'd try to find something not "rapid expansion".

I expect that I will be in the minority with my opinion on this. 

[Pygmy]

Not at all, jusputten... I  certainly agree with you and suspect most hunters would..

There must be some loads for the .40 featuring  a standard jacketed soft point or even a jacketed hollow point... Something BETWEEN a FMJ and a  super rapid expansion type like the Hydra -shock....

[G-Man]

No, i would agree i woiuld look for a solid or some kind of bonded bullet and limit your range, tough to track without an exit wound especially if hunting from a treestand!!

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yes.  Particularly because your thinking about what the effective range of the round would be.  I'd search some of the ammo manufacturer's websites to see if any 40 ammo is designed for hunting.  I searched on Hydra-Shock and saw it described as a rapid expansion bullet producing a wide but shallow wound channel.  Think I'd try to find something not "rapid expansion".

I expect that I will be in the minority with my opinion on this.

Yeah the Hydra-shoks are for defense purposes, I wouldnt use them for hunting.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Thanks guys, Ill look around and let you know what I end up going with.

[ny hunter]

I'm not sure you well find a hunting round in 40.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I found one that seems to be marketed for hunting

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=533458

Any opinions? I have seen some people say to use FMJs on one website and HPs on another. Im so confused lol.

[jusputtn]

I'm not sure you well find a hunting round in 40.

Sounds like a good excuse to get into reloading. 

[Pygmy]

My opinion is that a JHP would work fine at that velocity at ranges of 25 yards or less, assuming a good broadside shot at the ribcage...

I would certainly prefer it to a FMJ..

[G-Man]

If your going to go with factory ammo I would go to a heavier bullet 180grain over a155grain. Buy a box of both hp and solid then shoot into a wet phone book or two or make your own balistic gel(recipes on the web or watch mythbusters for theirs) see what penitrate the best and holds together. At pistol velocities you want an exit wound 1st and foremost a 40 cal hole without expansion will kill a deer. Put a round that comes apart yes you get max energy transfered but you'll spend more time tracking. Idealy id want a 180 gr. Soft point bonded bullet max penetration with expansion! Again limiting your range with a pistol is key!

[Warren]

WNYBuckHunter - You might want to post your question on the handgun Hunter web site.

www.handgunhunt.com

or

http://www.handgunhunt.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/1/page/1

There are lots of handgun hunters on that site who will give you good advice.

[eagle rider]

feasible yes, ethical, in my opinion a 40 is a great gun in a shoot out but not in the deer woods. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

feasible yes, ethical, in my opinion a 40 is a great gun in a shoot out but not in the deer woods.

Please elaborate. Why woulndt it be ethical at short range?

[WNYBuckHunter]

WNYBuckHunter - You might want to post your question on the handgun Hunter web site.

www.handgunhunt.com

or

http://www.handgunhunt.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/ubb/postlist/Board/1/page/1

There are lots of handgun hunters on that site who will give you good advice.

Im a member on that site, but havent been on there in over a year lol. Thanks for reminding me of it. 

[eagle rider]

for the same reason that a 22-250, although leagl to use on deer woun't be appropriate. 

Why do we hunt deer?  To help (1) manage what nature cannot, (2) to promote an ancient and honorable tradition, (3) to provide food for our family or neighbors, all while humainely harvesting the game we seek.  I've often said hunting isn't about killing, its about hunting. 

I've been teaching NYS Sportsman Education for 15 years, we spend a lot of time talking about ethics. 

Let me tell you a story,.....a couple of years ago another instructor reached out to help me with a large class, I did not know him until then.  During the discussion on firearms, he spent an uncanny amount of time talking about the defesive characteristics of firearms.  He, weather he realized it or not, gave an appearance of what instructors refer to as "slob hunters."  After that nights' class I asked him to not come back to teach with me ever again.  Over the next few days I recieved several calls from students and some parents of students questioning what was being taught. Hunters who care little about public perception and how it impacts ethical hunters everwhere.  Here is a little statistic about 10% of New Yorkers hunt, about 10% of New Yorkers are staunch avid antihunters and the 80% of New York in between don't have much of an opinion but are easily swayed by the lobbying efforts of others,... mostly the antihunting community because they are,.... lets face it much better funded and organized around their agenda than we are. 

The 40 is a self defence combat weapon manufactued in Croatia and sold in the USA by Springfiled Arms. It, as hunting implement, promotes an unsavory image as a hunting firearm to many.  While it questionably capable of harvesting a deer, so is a 22-250, and for that matter so is a flame thrower and we probably wouln't hunt with one of those either (the flame thrower bing illegal).  Lets get back to purposes of why we hunt,.... can a 40 help as an implement for deer managment, sure it can,..... so can the illegal flame thrower flame thrower, so can the ineffeicent for deer little 22-250, so can the front of your truck, but none it doesn't provide the most efficient way of humaely harvesting deer as a more suitable handgun can like a 44 mag for example.  The golden rule of thumb is 1,000 ft lbs at terminal range for any CPX Class 2 Animal.  The 40 is incapable of that meeting that demand at except point blank range with some loadings which isn't going to happen while deer hunting. 

Lets discuss the ammo that has such potential like TAP or Hydrashock ammo.  Yes they are lethal rounds but not intended for game animals.  They are designed to mortally wound human beings.  Human beings have a totally different perception of what it is to be shot.  A human will say, oh my god I've just been shot and will start the emotional process associated with being in pain and potentially dying.  Its much more dramtic.  Moreover, combat shooting, i.e. gun fighting is something that I am unfortunately quite familiar with.  In gun fighting to survive one frequently puts more than a single round into the target in the fight.  In fact most tactical shooting happens at distances of less than 10 feet in the dark under conditions of extreme light discipline and typically its three rounds into high center mass of your target while on the move towards protective cover.  ALL VERY DIFFERENT FROM DEER HUNTING!!!!!  The ammo designed to be effective in these conditions are again all very different which is why there is no manufacturers intend to use them as hunting rounds.

Let's talk about the aspect of getting food from your harvest.  Ammo like Hydrashock, I'm picking on them because I know what it is capable of since its my 40 cal service round for the last 10 years, will not pass through cases on center mass hits.  Its designed to expend all of its energy in its target which with three rounds center mass will hopefully immediately fall down and NOT SHOOT BACK at me!!!!!  The bullets' rapid radical expansion properties is teh reason why I have heard Medical Examiners say,..... "THEY MAKE A MESS."  Therefore your ability to use the meat of what you have taken is greatly impacted.  So even if you weren't planning on eating it yourself, you might have been donating it to a community pantry. 

Now lets go back to the fact that a deer conecptualize being shot differently us humand.  They will run away, you will have no exit wound. Your ability to have trackable blood will be a lot less.  That deer may dye a distance away infront of someone elses house or a school or a church for everyone to see a shot lost animal, dying, in pain, scared, confused, crippled animal.  Rember the 80% without an opinion of hunting, they all just got one.  If you hit that deer with something more suitable that will perform the way you need it to like a rifle or a handgun that is capable of big game harvets you probably wouln't have to deal with that scenario.  In fact I would bet that a vital hit on a deer with a hunting bullet from a more suitable big game firearm would probably lay any deer down within sight of you. 

Is it legal to hunt with a 40 S&W sure, but what is legal is not always ethical, just like the little 22-250.  Unfortunately, human nature is that people will give in to their impluses over what is the right thing to do everytime.  I see it everyday.  I'll get off the alter now. 

[ny hunter]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!

[Warren]

I have to disagree with the 1000 ft-lbs of energy as a minimun. I have taken full grown N.Y. whitetail deer with my 357mag that had a muzzle energy of about 500 ft-lbs.

[eagle rider]

awesome, again what is possible/legal vs. what is ethical.  Most recommend 1,000 ft lbs for humaine harevest at terminal distance.  The S&W 629 has been the long held hallmark of a whitetail handgun.  Its a 44 mag and will make the 1,000 ft lbs without an issue.  I was asked to support an opinion, I did.  We can all Monday Morning Quarterback each other all day long.  I worry about preserving a sport for generations to come.  If we're all doing the right thing, which in this case is also the best thing, it will be here for our grandkids to enjoy long after we're looking at the root side of the grass.

[Warren]

eagle rider - I understand what you are saying and as a general rule what you say is fine. However it is my opinion that shot placement is more important than muzzle energy. I'd rather hunt with a guy that is using a 40auto and limiting his shots to 20 yards than go with someone who likes to throw slugs out past 150 yards and has never tried sighting in his shotgun. The hunter who knows his limitations and his firearm's capabilities is the ethical one.

With all that said, it is also my opinion that a 40 auto is too light to use on a 200 lb buck but would work fine on a small 90 lb doe up close.

Thank you for your years of teaching sportsman education.

[eagle rider]

Warren- thanks a big aspect of ethics teaching for hunters is understanding their limits and the limits of their firearms.  I have and frequently use a 270 WSM Weatherby SubMOA, a rifle well capable of 500 yard shooting.  Believe it or not, I have had 500 yard opportunities on our leased land.  And while there are deer at 500 yards that I can see in the cross hairs, and the 270 WSM is capable of carrying the mail that distance, I am not that good and I know it.  So I don't shoot deer at 500 yards.  Can I legally, yes, should I ethically no.  By the same token if I went afield with a 40 S&W and a 140 class buck stepped out in front of me, what do I do?  Ethically I should not take the shot, but again what's the human impluse going to be like?  Yes it MIGHT be enough gun for a 90 pound one and half year old, that I probably shouldn't be shooting because it has not yet had a chance to mature.  So again ethics lace into all of it.  We don't have referees running through the woods telling us what to do, we have to know in our heads and in our hearts.  Back to the 40 cal, there's all kinds of wounded, but there is only one kind of dead.  That's the difference with Mr. 140 class.  So no don't use a 35 Whelen (also a favoite of mine) to Texas Heart Shoot because that's just a low percentage shot even if it is a 140 class buck.  As far as I'm concern on our land, if you show up to hunt deer with a 40 S&W, you're going home.  Sorry, that's just how it would be.  Just like if you intentionally shot at a buck at full gallop you're gonna go home too.  Both are perfectly legal, neither are ethical (and safe in the case of the later).  ER

[WNYBuckHunter]

Eagle, while I can appreciate what you are saying, I dont agree with most of it. First off, I already said I am not going to use Hydra-shoks for hunting. Half of your statement was about those rounds. Second, just because my gun is not a revolver or break action handgun, doesnt mean I shouldnt hunt with it. A buddy of mine has an AR that we use for fox and coyotes, and I am looking into possibly picking up one of the Remington R25s in 308 for deer and other game. I just dont see how anyone could think that those guns are unethical.

Bottom line, Im not looking for an ethics beat down, ethics are too subjective to be laid out as fact. Im looking for info on what ammo I should be using on a deer with a 40 cal handgun for under 25 yards, which in my eyes, is perfectly ethical. Thanks for your opinion.

[eagle rider]

I don't have any issue with AR's at all.  Great for small gaming in 5.56 or 223, I wouln't shoot at a deer with either of those chamberings.  I have an R25 myself, its a great rifle (a word to wise take your time seasoning the barrel, I didn't and I had some problems that had me sending the gun back twice for service).  Anyway, what I wrote was that I picked on Hydrashocks because I have familiarity with that round.  We use them in our service guns. I know first hand how they work and what they were intended for.  You may not be aware of this but the 40 was developed as a result of a Justice Dept study of the inferiority of the 9mm as a combat round for law enforcement.  The 40 is all combat and it even replaced the 10mm standing in the LE community within two years of the 40 being available. 

What I did do was provide an answer to the question of why I felt it was unethical and inappropriate use of that firearm and caliber for deer; and it primarily goes to intent of purpose behind the design.  You can do whatever you want to.  We all choose our own path.  My opinions, are my convictions and I live and die by them.  For me weather I'm hunting or going to work, both involve a firearm for me.  I can tell you, I've never second guessed my decisions in either realm of my life.  I hope you never need to either.  I honestly feel that way.