The pros and cons.. yep an ar thread..

[G-Man]

Interesting article showing success and different levels of failure..https://www.mossyoak.com/our-obsession/blogs/deer/antler-restrictions-good-or-bad

[dbHunterNY]

it's of my opinion the article that's been shared a number of times on here largely focuses on failures and author has a bias against antler restrictions.  it doesn't really discuss antler restrictions in general but instead mandatory antler restrictions which aren't nearly as flexible and tailored to fit a local deer population and it's hunters.  the author has only such much space to tell a present the discussion, and there's some factual meat in there, but right when things get really juicy of why something failed or how it could've succeeded it was onto the next situation. there's the really discussions.  i really don't know the reason to spin off topic and end with CWD without making any effort to tie it to antler restrictions, right at the tail end too where he should be posing a summary of the situation, findings, or posing a question to open the topic for discussion.

[dbHunterNY]

Michigan definitely had it right by having the a % approval for implementation, giving it an end date to be re-evaluated, and having the DNR monitor it's effects.  those are important to any deer management not just antler restrictions.  also why not include in the idea if yearling buck take isn't 60+% in some WMUs or aggregate group of them don't make any change if it's not needed? a personal pet peeve of mine is letting people who may not understand them steer the ship of whether or not to have them without first giving them the tools to make the decision. for example NY DEC pissed away all this money to ponder the idea of how people would relate to ARs and got no conclusive data to show if they should do them or not. they just got the obvious feedback; yes i'm willing to restrict myself for better opportunity, yes i might not like some versus others, and yes i'd rather get results for nothing without any sacrifice.  only later have they started to educate the public on expectations for each age class for weight, antlers, and prevalence can be to maybe understand how much effort might be required to get a chance at each.  in my strong opinion it should've been the other way around with further education on this is how each method for buck restriction might work.  i mean DEC understands how and why something may or may not work but doesn't often convey that info the public and let them weigh the options.

i think we've now surpassed 40K acres worth of land owners here in the Warren, Washington, Saratoga, and Rensselaer counties that are known by my group to be using antler restrictions of all shapes and sizes to fit their need that actually restrict more than the basic concept of mandatory antler restrictions that pass just most yearling bucks. depending on the goals and folks using them those ARs are yielding anything from gross boone and crockett record book bucks to much smaller around 80", all of which are making people happy. educational and understanding what they can and can't do, coupled with knowing what will make you happy is the key.

[wolc123]

11 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

 i really don't know the reason to spin off topic and end with CWD without making any effort to tie it to antler restrictions, right at the tail end too where he should be posing a summary of the situation, findings, or posing a question to open the topic for discussion.

I also thought that was odd, especially because the author mentioned "CWD in NY".   As far as I know, there has not been a single confirmed case of CWD in a free-range deer in NY.   If I am not mistaken,  it was only detected in a farmed deer that was slaughtered (before they knew it was sick) to feed folks at a fireman's raffle in Oneida back in 2005.  I wonder if any study has been done, on the folks who ate that deer at the raffle, to see if CWD can effect humans ?   

If the author would have pointed out the fact that states like PA (which have widespread application of mandatory AR's) also have widespread cases of CWD in the free-range deer herd, then it might have made a bit more sense to bring it up.   This evidence could be used to show that keeping mandatory AR's (mostly) out of NY, might be helping to keep CWD out of our free-range herd.

Hopefully, FSW gets home from vacation soon so he can clear all this up for us.       

Edited March 22, 2019 by wolc123

[dbHunterNY]

11 hours ago, wolc123 said:

I also thought that was odd, especially because the author mentioned "CWD in NY".   As far as I know, there has not been a single confirmed case of CWD in a free-range deer in NY.   If I am not mistaken,  it was only detected in a farmed deer that was slaughtered (before they knew it was sick) to feed folks at a fireman's raffle in Oneida back in 2005.  I wonder if any study has been done, on the folks who ate that deer at the raffle, to see if CWD can effect humans ?   

If the author would have pointed out the fact that states like PA (which have widespread application of mandatory AR's) also have widespread cases of CWD in the free-range deer herd, then it might have made a bit more sense to bring it up.   This evidence could be used to show that keeping mandatory AR's (mostly) out of NY, might be helping to keep CWD out of our free-range herd.

Hopefully, FSW gets home from vacation soon so he can clear all this up for us.       

both. five captive deer were found to be CWD positive. oneida and madison counties were somewhat quarantined from moving deer out of them and testing a statistical number of taken deer was done. that same year 2 wild deer were discover positive.  since then NYS is thought to be free of CWD. no cases have popped up supposedly. it was always a western states thing and out of site and mind here in the east, until Wisconsin picked it up. stories or theories of how they got are sketchy and shady as h*** if any are true.

the author didn't make a connection with mandatory ARs because there's no connection to be made to say mandatory antler restrictions would lead to CWD.  infected bucks wandering you could say might not help prevent it spreading but irrelevant where it doesn't exist.  not to mention yearling buck dispersal is a something that happens but research studies like from PA have concluded that upwards of 80% of bucks have already dispersed by the time they're 1.5 yrs old and breeding/hunting season has arrived.  bucks by their nature aid in CWD spread but making a herd less healthy focusing on wiping out the whole buck herd won't be good for deer or hunters. you need a healthy number of bucks to do their thing and make more deer. best to just maintain low but balanced and huntable populations of deer.

[wolc123]

20 hours ago, dbHunterNY said:

both. five captive deer were found to be CWD positive. oneida and madison counties were somewhat quarantined from moving deer out of them and testing a statistical number of taken deer was done. that same year 2 wild deer were discover positive.  since then NYS is thought to be free of CWD. no cases have popped up supposedly. it was always a western states thing and out of site and mind here in the east, until Wisconsin picked it up. stories or theories of how they got are sketchy and shady as h*** if any are true.

 

Can you offer any proof that "wild deer" outside of a fence were ever  "discovered positive"  for CWD in NY state ?   Also, do you remember the recent news stories (February 2019) which told of dozens of CWD-infected deer down in PA.  Many of those were found dead with no signs of starvation, etc, or were killed in attempt to limit the spread of the disease.   We can't say that would have happened had PA not had statewide, mandatory AR's in place for many years, nor can we say that AR's contributed to the recent explosion of CWD in PA. 

What we can do is err on the conservative side and keep mandatory AR's the heck out of NY, including the elimination of them in the few "test DMU's" where they have been in place for a few years.   We should also push to ban deer farming in NY, since that practice has been positively linked to all of the cases of CWD which have been discovered here.   That said, I have no problem with "voluntary" AR's, which is a practice that I adhere to myself.   It has been more than 10 years since I killed an antlered buck with less than 3 points on a side (bb's taken on "antlerless" tags don't count).      

Edited March 23, 2019 by wolc123

[Larry]

 

If you look at PA with Ar's for about 15 years the last 5year average for 2.5 year old's or better has plateaued at about 57% of the harvest. NY with little in the way Ar's was at 54% in 2017 will that keep going up for 2018 who knows. We will need at lease 10 data points to see where and when the harvest will plateau.

Both states use statistical molding to get there harvest data. PA's harvest reporting by hunters is in the mid 30% range and NY is in the mid to upper 40% range.

 

[Larry]

DEC began monitoring for CWD in 2002 and intensified its efforts in 2005 after CWD was found in five captive and two wild deer in Oneida County-the first incidents of the disease in New York State.Nov 15, 2018

 

CWD-Suspected Deer Determined to be a False Alarm

The New York State Departments of Environmental Conservation (DEC) and Agriculture and Markets (DAM) today announced that Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD) has not been found in a suspected CWD-positive sample from an adult female deer killed by a bowhunter in Chautauqua County and submitted for testing as part of DEC's routine surveillance efforts. An initial screening test performed by the Animal Health Diagnostic Center at Cornell University suggested the deer as a possible CWD case. DEC and DAM immediately sent additional tissue samples to the National Veterinary Services Lab (NVSL) in Ames, Iowa, for additional definitive testing. DEC conducts confirmatory testing on all suspected CWD samples. Final diagnosis from NVSL indicates CWD was not detected. Although CWD poses a serious threat to New York's white-tailed deer and moose populations, there are no known cases of CWD transmission from animals to humans. this deer was killed in 2018

In an abundance of caution, DEC will continue strategic CWD surveillance in Chautauqua County and around the state as deer hunting season continues.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Larry

[Larry]

 

Can humans get chronic wasting disease?

CWD is typified by chronic weight loss leading to death. ... Although reports in the popular press have been made of humans being affected by CWD, a study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggests, "[m]ore epidemiologic and laboratory studies are needed to monitor the possibility of such transmissions".

[wolc123]

7 hours ago, Larry said:

 

Can humans get chronic wasting disease?

CWD is typified by chronic weight loss leading to death. ... Although reports in the popular press have been made of humans being affected by CWD, a study by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention suggests, "[m]ore epidemiologic and laboratory studies are needed to monitor the possibility of such transmissions".

It seems that those folks who ate the CWD-positve deer at that fireman's raffle in Oneida back in 2005 would provide an good test group to study the effects of CWD in humans.   I wonder if anyone on this site knows someone who was at that event and ate the "tainted" venison ?    I drive thru the area several times each year (sometimes with a deer carcass strapped to my vehicle).  I never fail to think about that sad day back in 2005 each time I cross that bridge on Rt 81 over Oneida lake.   On the Sunday after Thanksgiving in 2016, a local asked me about the the buck strapped to the top of our mini-van while we stopped for gas in Brewerton.   He was quite the deer hunter, and said that some of his mounts were on display in one of the local cafes.   I was afraid to bring up the subject of CWD, but I really wanted to ask him what his thoughts were on the subject.   It is a big deal to me, because the bulk of my family's protein comes from free-range, NY state whitetail deer.    

Edited March 23, 2019 by wolc123

[Robhuntandfish]

2 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

It seems that those folks who ate the CWD-positve deer at that fireman's raffle in Oneida back in 2005 would provide an good test group to study the effects of CWD in humans.   I wonder if anyone on this site knows someone who was at that event and ate the "tainted" venison ?    I drive thru the area several times each year (sometimes with a deer carcass strapped to my vehicle).  I never fail to think about that sad day back in 2005 each time I cross that bridge on Rt 81 over Oneida lake.   On the Sunday after Thanksgiving in 2016, a local asked me about the the buck strapped to the top of our mini-van while we stopped for gas in Brewerton.   He was quite the deer hunter, and said that some of his mounts were on display in one of the local cafes.   I was afraid to bring up the subject of CWD, but I really wanted to ask him what his thoughts were on the subject.   It is a big deal to me, because the bulk of my family's protein comes from free-range, NY state whitetail deer.    

I live in the town of Verona.  No one had any issues. 

For several years after we had to bring any deer to a DEC station and they took samples etc. No positive tests so they ended having to that. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Robhuntandfish

[wolc123]

2 minutes ago, Robhuntandfish said:

I live in the town of Verona.  No one had any issues. 

That is good to know, and may answer Larry's question "If humans can get CWD ? ".   Do you know any of the folks who ate that deer and how many there were total ?   If there were any bad effects, I would think they would have shown up over the last 14 years.   

[Robhuntandfish]

3 minutes ago, wolc123 said:

That is good to know, and may answer Larry's question "If humans can get CWD ? ".   Do you know any of the folks who ate that deer and how many there were total ?   If there were any bad effects, I would think they would have shown up over the last 14 years.   

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051122183641.htm

This was the town of Verona fire hall about 8 minutes from my house.  Last I heard no issues from anyone that attended. I did know a couple that attended and they weren't worried about it.  Haven't heard anything about it in years. Deer was from a farm I guess and not a wild deer. They shot a bunch of deer in the area to test and all tagged deer in Oneida county in the area had to be taken to Dec site and they took the heads for testing.  If you wanted the antlers they would either cut them off or you could get them later.  I only had to take a small buck there so never bothered with it.  But some people were pissed that had big bucks for sure. It was a pain to take it there and bet prob most didn't even do it.  

[Larry]

 

Here is what would happen if CWD ever jumps the species barrier.

1 the politicians will pass laws banning all enclosures and the eradication of all deer, elk and moose in any enclosures. Regardless if they test positive for CWD or not.

2 it will end hunting in this country as we know it. There will be a demand to remove as meany deer from the environment as possible.

3 it will collapse a multi billion dollar industry.

So for those who think CWD is no big deal you may want to re-think that idea. WARNING IT'S NOT WEATHER CWD JUMPS THE SPECIES BARRIER BUT PROBABLY WHEN. Sounds pretty dire doesn't it. It's just what could happen.

[wolc123]

20 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Here is what would happen if CWD ever jumps the species barrier.

1 the politicians will pass laws banning all enclosures and the eradication of all deer, elk and moose in any enclosures. Regardless if they test positive for CWD or not.

2 it will end hunting in this country as we know it. There will be a demand to remove as meany deer from the environment as possible.

3 it will collapse a multi billion dollar industry.

So for those who think CWD is no big deal you may want to re-think that idea. WARNING IT'S NOT WEATHER CWD JUMPS THE SPECIES BARRIER BUT PROBABLY WHEN. Sounds pretty dire doesn't it. It's just what could happen.

Because it has been more than 14 years since a group of at least 50 New-Yorkers consumed a deer that was CWD positive, and there has been no reported negative effects, it seems highly unlikely that it will EVER jump the human barrier. 

Also, FSW often argues that the deer hunting has improved in those states out West where CWD has been around a lot longer than that.   While the latest outbreak of CWD down in PA concerns me a little, the rest of the data indicates that your fears are mostly unjustified.   In the link that RH&F posted, there was a study relating soil type to the spread of CWD, with high-clay soil less likely to facilitate its spread.   Maybe we have enough clay in our soil here, such that it will never be a big problem for our wild deer herd.   That might help explain why there has not been a single case reported in NY since 2005, while cases in other states continue to increase.   

In that same link, a study was mentioned where monkeys were fed CWD-tainted venison. The study showed that CWD does not "jump the barrier" to that primate.   The bottom line is: both the deer and the humans (also "primates") are pretty safe here in NY for the foreseable future, when it comes to CWD.     

Edited March 24, 2019 by wolc123

[Larry]

 

The CWD prion has been shown to experimentally infect squirrel monkeys, and also laboratory mice that carry some human genes. An additional study begun in 2009 by Canadian and German scientists, which has not yet been published in the scientific literature, is evaluating whether CWD can be transmitted to macaques—a type of monkey that is genetically closer to people than any other animal that has been infected with CWD previously.  On July 10, 2017, the scientists presented a summary of the study’s progress (access the recorded presentationExternalExternal and slides Cdc-pdf[PDF 3.88MB]External), in which they showed that CWD was transmitted to monkeys that were fed infected meat (muscle tissue) or brain tissue from CWD-infected deer and elk. Some of the meat came from asymptomatic deer that had CWD (i.e., deer that appeared healthy and had not begun to show signs of the illness yet). Meat from these asymptomatic deer was also able to infect the monkeys with CWD. CWD was also able to spread to macaques that had the infectious material placed directly into their brains.

This study showed different results than a previous study published in the Journal of VirologyExternal in 2018, which had not shown successful transmission of CWD to macaques. The reasons for the different experimental results are unknown. To date, there is no strong evidence for the occurrence of CWD in people, and it is not known if people can get infected with CWD prions. Nevertheless, these experimental studies raise the concern that CWD may pose a risk to people and suggest that it is important to prevent human exposures to CWD.

Additional studies are under way to identify if any prion diseases could be occurring at a higher rate in people who are at increased risk for contact with potentially CWD-infected deer or elk meat. Because of the long time it takes before any symptoms of disease appear, scientists expect the study to take many years before they will determine what the risk, if any, of CWD is to people.

This is from the CDC

[Four Season Whitetail's]

Some of you amaze me with your partial research and pick and choose what parts you like to post about a story. First off the guy that had the cases was not a farmer but a taxidermist. He was also rehabilitated whitetails that were brought to him out of the wild herd by the DEC themselves to rehab and release. The animals that were positive were around his specimens and waste from his heads to be mounted that were brought into him from every corner of the country. Hence the positives inside and a couple outside he released. A little more research will show you that Michigan found their case at a Taxidermist that had deer. You want to see why CWD is in Pa? Research the flight of the birds and the cases of CWD found. You will also see how the PA DNR could care less with their practices. Only Larry believes that we have a threat to humans because some White Coat took a needle and syringe and injected some prions directly into a monkeys brain! Yeah that is a natural vector. Do the research yourselves and you will find nothing but a political disease that some state s used to collect all kinds of research cash and to try and shut down their biggest competition. High Fence. Which they have failed over and over again. Follow the money to your answers.


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[wolc123]

It is great to see you back FSW.  Thanks for straightening us out on this CWD nonsense.   We do not agree on everything but I am with you 100 % on this CWD fear-mongering and that NY needs a year round open season on the coyote for ALL people.    I will save a pack of bb backstrap for you if you make the casino meet and greet as a token of thanks.

 

How was your vacation ?

Edited March 24, 2019 by wolc123
bb was BB

[Four Season Whitetail's]

It is great to see you back FSW.  Thanks for straightening us out on this CWD nonsense.   We do not agree on everything but I am with you 100 % on this CWD fear-mongering and that NY needs a year round open season on the coyote for ALL people.    I will save a pack of bb backstrap for you if you make the casino meet and greet as a token of thanks.
 
How was your vacation ?

Plenty of straps in the freezer thanks. I may never come back!


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