Anyone ever try/use the Square Up Torque Indicator

[Deerthug]

I was wondering if anyone ever tried/used the Squareup Archerty Torque indicator? I'm always looking for ways to be more consistent in my shots. I do have a level on my site but that only works for left or right tilt. It is claimed that this helps you correct wrist torque.

http://www.squareuparchery.com/

[Doc]

This is the first I have seen of this version of the product. I will say that there definitely is something to the concept. Back a couple of decades ago I was experimenting with a tubular sight and saw the variations caused by hand torque which was hi-lited as I looked down the tube. This design uses that basic same concept. It looks like they have refined it a bit and made it marketable. How well it works out in real practice with their version is yet to be seen, but I do believe in the raw concept. I never did anything with the idea, but it looks like somebody has.

I may break down and begrudgingly part with some of my cash for this one. That doesn't happen much anymore. Let's see what the thing looks like in my hand.

[WNYBuckHunter]

I saw another site that has the same basic idea, but doesnt require the extra hardware.

http://www.iqbowsights.com/

[Deerthug]

My brother has the IQ site. He says it works pretty well for his purposes. It's pretty steep in price though - $200 for a 4 pin. Before archery season this year I just got a new 4 pin Bone collector tru-glo site with the light attachment for $50 at Dicks and I'm happy with it. I like the idea of the squareup mainly because it gives you a bigger reference point as to whether or not you are torquing your wrist. My eyes are not what they used to be so the bigger the better for me. They do give you a 30 day money back guarantee no questions asked. So I may just give it a try after this season is over. I don't want to be messing with my set up five days before I head back for one last round. So far I've been out hunting about 6 weekends throughout the season and the score is: Brutus 6 and me 0.

[Doewhacker]

Looks like it acomplishes the same goal as a level. I wouldn't buy it but don't let that stop you. Hand torque results from poor form, not saying you have poor form but at random times in the year I find myself wondering what happened to mine. It is almost 100% in my grip of the bow, if you can get that consistent you are golden and don't need stuff like this. Although I will say I like the idea of the IQ sight and products like this one, just not the $200 price tag of the IQ.

[Doc]

The only thing I would wonder is if all this stuff might be a bit distracting. For example, I tried a level once and it drove me nuts trying to keep the sight pin in the middle of the peep sight aperature while holding it all steady on the target and then having to look away for a second to see the level-bubble. It was impossible for me to keep all that stuff together and actually get a shot off ..... lol. I ripped that sucker off in a hurry.

It is true that this system is located concentricly around your sight, but I still wonder if it still isn't getting to be a bit much.

[Doewhacker]

To me any way, its not really important to have a level at close ranges. It helped me alot at the longer distances and even then once you can mantain consistent form its not truely needed.

You want to talk about distraction, try making the bubble in a level move when its frozen on a cold day. I had to laugh when that happened on a cold day this year, I had the bow side ways trying to level myself up before I realized what happened. lol

[Deerthug]

I have a level on my site which helps with left and right cant but my problem is the wrist turning in or out. I try not to grip the bow too tightly but I can feel my wrist turning just before releasing. I think this square up may help.

[Doc]

I have a level on my site which helps with left and right cant but my problem is the wrist turning in or out. I try not to grip the bow too tightly but I can feel my wrist turning just before releasing. I think this square up may help.

You might try a wrist strap and a completely open grip. Let the wrist strap catch the bow for you. That should take the torquing influences out completely

[Doewhacker]

You might try a wrist strap and a completely open grip. Let the wrist strap catch the bow for you. That should take the torquing influences out completely

That and see if it is at all possible to install a different grip on your bow, some bows you can change it out and go for one that works better for you.

[Doc]

To me any way, its not really important to have a level at close ranges. It helped me alot at the longer distances and even then once you can mantain consistent form its not truely needed.

You want to talk about distraction, try making the bubble in a level move when its frozen on a cold day. I had to laugh when that happened on a cold day this year, I had the bow side ways trying to level myself up before I realized what happened. lol

My attempt with the level was all about the terrain. My archery range is chopped into a steep side hill. All points of reference are at a severe angle to actual vertical. It really messes up my sense of perpendicularity and effects the right and left sight settings. I don't think this Square-Up thing would help that out at all, but then that's not what they claim to be designed for anyway. However, for improper hand placement and other forms of torqueing problems, I could see where it might actually work.

[Deerthug]

You might try a wrist strap and a completely open grip. Let the wrist strap catch the bow for you. That should take the torquing influences out completely

Not sure what you mean about a wrist strap. This is what I have

Is that what you mean?

[Doc]

Not sure what you mean about a wrist strap. This is what I have

Is that what you mean?

I can't quite make it all out (it's a bit close), but I'm sure that's a wrist strap. They make all kinds of them (mine's leather) but I've seen those braided kind too and they work just as good. The trick with those is not to have them too tight (you don't want your hand forced tight into the grip), but just tight enough to retain the bow and keep it falling on the ground on release. With the strap set loosely concentrate on keeping your hand open throughout the shot and beyond (that all becomes part of the follow-through). When I say open, I don't mean that your fingers have to be splayed wide open. You just have to ensure that you are getting minimum hand contact. You are not gripping the bow but just bracing it with a totally relaxed hand. This way the hand is not "controlling the grip but merely supplying a bracing surface. Upon release, the bow should slowly pivot forward at the top and be eventually caught by the strap. Do not try to catch the bow. Wow ..... lol .... that's all a hard thing to describe without actually showing how it all happens. I hope I'm making it clear enough. This might make a good wintertime experiment just to see how it all works if you can find an indoor shooting range. If done properly, there should be no torqing influences from your hand at all.

[Doewhacker]

Yea, what he said ^ haha

[nyslowhand]

I changed to a new sight system this past year, mostly due to problems with wearing tri-focal glasses.

Focusing my corrected vision on three seperate objects all at different distances (peep, pin & target) was almost impossible

Removed the string peep and installed a HindSight on the bow frame.

Looking thru the rear HindSight X-hairs, simply align the pin you've sighted in.

Also have a level on front pin sight, which as other have mentioned is pretty distracting trying to aim & level.

This has worked out really well for my application & needs.

If you use a kisser button, you then have 3 points (2 on bow frame) of alignment which miniminizes wrist torque.

Sure has improved my accuracy & consistency.

[Deerthug]

Thanks guys. Doc believe it or not I understood what you said and I actually do not "grip" the grip but just let the grip sit in the web between my index finger and thumb with my fingers curled lightly touching the other side of the grip. It seems as though my problem is in the follow thru. If I just concentrate I may be able to control the torque with the follow thru.

[WNYBuckHunter]

What is the button on the front of the grip? Range finder? If you are trying to push that button you may be adding torque to your grip.

Also, make sure your bow sling (wrist strap) is not tight around your wrist, it will cause torquing as well.

[Deerthug]

What is the button on the front of the grip? Range finder? If you are trying to push that button you may be adding torque to your grip.

Also, make sure your bow sling (wrist strap) is not tight around your wrist, it will cause torquing as well.

Yes it is for the bow mounted rangefinder. It is positioned so that I can use my ring finger on my bow hand to press it only once and it reads the distance. When I'm ready to shoot I loosen my grip and the grip sits in the web between the index finger and thumb and fingers curled lightly around the grip.

PS: WNY you just got me thinking . . . I don't think I'll be even able to install the Squareup since I already have the rangefinder attached to the bow. The rangefinder mount attaches to the outside of the sight mounting bracket. I may be out of luck.

PSS: I may just have to practice more often to work on my follow through.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Deerthug

[Doc]

Thanks guys. Doc believe it or not I understood what you said and I actually do not "grip" the grip but just let the grip sit in the web between my index finger and thumb with my fingers curled lightly touching the other side of the grip. It seems as though my problem is in the follow thru. If I just concentrate I may be able to control the torque with the follow thru.

Ah the old follow through problem. believe it or not after 46 years of shooting the bow (some of that being tournament shooting), I still have that problem sneaking in periodically. And boy does that mess things up! And yes, follow-through does impact torque. It is one of several causes. hand placement and grip being a couple of others.

You still may be able to open your grip a bit more. I like it so that I have absolutely no control as far as stopping the bow's forward motion (that's what the strap is for). I just let the bow go . That way I know that I am not influencing torque or other potential problems. It also makes me not "grab for the bow". That is something that can happen almost unconsciously and definitely will cause torque and all other kinds of grief. Grabbing for the bow after the shot is also a follow-through failure. If my fingers are almost closed, it seems to be a natural reaction to grab after the shot. Some times that is "after" the shot. Sometimes it is right "during" the shot. Sometimes it happens just "before" the arrow has really left the bow all the way. Those three variations will absolutely kill accuracy. The differences between the three different timings is so slight that it may vary from one shot to the next and create radically different points of impact. That's why I concentrate on letting the bow simply drop forward. With today's equipment,the bow will do all the work if you let it.

Anyway per your intial post, none of this will be helped with this new Square -Up torque indicator .... lol. But It may help detect improper gripping techniques. It won't fix them but it probably will tell you if you are over-controlling the bow.

[Deerthug]

Thanks again Doc for the input.

I have another question. When I practice my shooting, and as I continue to shoot more arrows, I notice that my left arm (bow holding arm) tends to move (shake) ever so slightly when I'm aiming. If I release the arrow, it hits off center either to the right or left of where I'm aiming. I'm pulling 55# with a 27" draw length. Sometimes I have to let down, take a deep breath and draw back again. Do you have any suggestions on how to control the movement/shake?

[Doc]

Thanks again Doc for the input.

I have another question. When I practice my shooting, and as I continue to shoot more arrows, I notice that my left arm (bow holding arm) tends to move (shake) ever so slightly when I'm aiming. If I release the arrow, it hits off center either to the right or left of where I'm aiming. I'm pulling 55# with a 27" draw length. Sometimes I have to let down, take a deep breath and draw back again. Do you have any suggestions on how to control the movement/shake?

I can only make one suggestion and it really sounds like a cop-out. But my guess is that you are in need of a good program of regular shooting to build those bow shooting muscles. A lot is often made of the high let-offs of modern compounds and how the physical requirements for shooting have been eliminated. Don't you believe it. There still is the fact that you are holding a lot of dead weight out there at arms length. You still have to pull the entire draw weight at some point in the draw cycle. You are exerting a lot of force in a way that is not really all that natural for humans. Archery requires muscles that are not used in any other kind of activity and they have to be built and maintained. It still is all about strength training of specific "archery muscles", and the only efficient way to do that is to shoot and shoot often.

You might also consider temporarily dropping the weight to 50# if your bow is capable of going down any farther. I say that because it is not a real good idea to shoot a bow from an over-bowed situation because all that does is build in poor shooting form and shooting habits that will be very hard to break later on. Shooting a lower weight and gradually cranking it up later is the better way. With regular practice you'll be surprised how quickly you will have it back up to 55# and beyond. Building those specialized muscles really doesn't take all that long, but it does require regularity of practice. If you can find a winter archery league, that would be a great thing. If you have room in your basement that can be used even if it's only 10 yards (just use smaller bulls-eyes ..... lol). I will guarantee that come next year that arm will not be shaking. I can promise you that just one winter of that kind of intense practice will make a change that you won't believe.

People that want to be bowhunters must resign themselves to the fact that they have to first become an archer. You can't shoot a deer if you can't shoot your bow. Practice is the key to mastering archery.

[Deerthug]

I think you are right as far as the muscles are concerned. The shaking usually starts to happen after I have shot about 15 arrows. The first 15 arrows are usually dead-on. After that they start going off center a bit. If I stop for 10 minutes or so and then shoot again, I am pretty much back on target. I admit I don't practice very often. I actually have my first pin set at 10 yds and do practice (when I can) in my backyard at a 3D target. I also live 20 minutes from C&B Archery in Hicksville. I try to go there at least 1 or 2 times a month during the off season to practice in addition to shooting in my yard.

[nyslowhand]

Same problem with shaking for me, but at 64 I'll deal with it.

I shoot ~57#, which I can hold for a minute or less.

I too only shoot sets of ~15 arrows at a time, by then I'm shaking pretty good & accuracy stinks.

Only draw back to not getting the better muscle tone is length of time you can hold at full draw.

That too has a "work around"; concealment, stand location, deliberate movement, etc.

All I need is a good opportunity at 30yds or less and a short full draw hold timeframe.

When all the stars are aligned, I'm good to go!

[Doewhacker]

As long as you are making the most out of the practice you do get in you are good. The first arrow is often the only one that matters. Now what I do is think of it like a workout, I'm not real concerned with being super accurate the first few times in front of the target. There is plenty of time to fine tune at the end of the year before season. I shoot until I get tired, then shoot some more to build up the muscle's. I do that three times a week at the begining and every night by the end of the practice season. I shoot for over an hour by the end, sending thousands of arrows down range by the end of the summer. I also only shoot three at a time, this gets me walking back and forth and it gives my arms a rest. After a couple of months you will get to know when you make a mistake in form before the arrow even gets there.

What is causing you to go off center after a few is you droping your bow arm, this is the most common flaw in any one's form. That and punching the trigger like you are mad at it..lol

Archery is the simplest in theory and hardest to achieve constant consistency. (If that made sense )

[Gthphtm]

Another thing to get you to spend money.With a Compound bow set up for you,It breaks at a set point,to poundage that you draw and when broken is set,If you are holding it correctly.You should be able to hold the bow at full draw long enough to release the string,to shoot at what you are aiming at.Just sounds like another gimmic to me.A recurve or long bow is a little harder to hold at the same point,but as said above practice,practice.