Pistol becomes a Rifle?

[Culvercreek hunt club]

A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).

A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.

I can't wait to see if WNY gets a straight answer. Everywhere I can find to read is stating the July 2011 cleared this up since the Encore and Contenders are not ONLY as a rifle. The first cited paragraph alows the conversion of a pistol to the rifle and the secondd paragraph allows it's conversion back.

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or „any other weapon‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no „weapon made from a rifle‰ subject to the NFA has been made.

This paragraph is where I thin Bubba may be mistaken. It is not required that the parts be sold in a "KIT". It could be but not required. all that IS requird is that there be a collection of parts and they are designed to be interchangable.

and I believe this is the money sentence:

Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no „weapon made from a rifle‰ subject to the NFA has been made.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no „weapon made from a rifle‰ subject to the NFA has been made.

Bingo!

[Paula]

okie dokie

[bubba]

I will wait to see what the atf says.

[bubba]

any word yet or did the word not say what you thought?

[WNYBuckHunter]

No word yet. Ill post what I get no matter what it says. Ive never been above admitting I was wrong about something.

[bubba]

I was just pulling your leg about not hearing what you wanted to. I am aware you are an honorable man who would post either way.

[Santamour123]

Yes we have argued this before. And I stated "It not ilegal to make it into a rifle. The probelem lays in chaging a rifle into a pistol." So once it is turned into a rifle legally you can not go back You can not "Make a pistol"

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Santamour...have you read the batf's July 2011 determination letter? Let's see how they respond to WNY's question.

[bubba]

_{exactly. which is why t/c registers a frame as either a pistol or rifle frame when they make them, and you need to know when you get one. When you buy a new frame you have to designate which you want and have to get either the stocks or grips with it. When you buy a used one you are supposed to check with t/c for original configuration. In fact the person selling it is suposed to have that info and divulge it. Again the chances of ever being checked by the atf is slim, but big enough for me to steer clear of it.}

[WNYBuckHunter]

I really wish they would hurry up and answer lol

[bubba]

I really dont think you do lol. If there was a clear cut answer, you would have gotten it by now. You will get legal mumbo jumbo and still eb comfused as the rest of us. I could direct you to another forum where it has been clearly hashed out and pposts form the atf exist. This is where I base my opinions of the facts posted there from the atf.

[Grouse]

This ATF stuff infuriates me. You shouldn't have to be a lawyer, or have one on retainer, to be a gun owner. If the laws are not clear, they should be voided.

It didn't seem to be a problem for the ATF to run 2000 firearms into Mexico to supply drug lords though, did it?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Let's not turn this thread into politics lol.

Bubba why wouldn't I want an answer? I don't care what answer I get, at least I'll know what the facts are. It doesn't surprise me that I'm not getting an immediate answer, it's not like the ATF doesn't have better things to do than jump on every email they get.

[bubba]

And it isnt like them to give you a straight answer much less an answer. They prefer we remain clueless and then nail someone when they do it wrong. Write to T/C t hey will answer you as they have to know to sell legally.

[Deerslayer2388]

There is a pistol/rifle u can hunt with it's the high point they come in .45 40 s&wans in 9mm it's pretty cool I shot one yesterday!

[bubba]

what is a pistol/rifle? I am assuming you mean a rifle length barrel that shoots pistol calibers?

[WNYBuckHunter]

Yeah hipoints aren't pistols, they are rifles that shoot pistol rounds, not what we are talking about here.

[Deerslayer2388]

Same thing ur talkin about putting a rifle barrel on a pistol

[WNYBuckHunter]

Nope, not even close. Hipoints have a rifle length barrel and stocks, they just shoot pistol ammo, not the same thing as a TC Encore switching between rifle and pistol length barrels and stocks.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Btw, I wouldn't hunt with a Hipoint, those things get worse groups at 100 yards than a Mini14.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Here is the first response back from ATF. Seems they misunderstood what my main question was, but they did not say it would be illegal to swap barrels/stocks. I replied back to them asking only if it would be illegal to do that.

"This is in response to your email to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,

Firearms and Explosives (ATF).  In your email, you inquired about

registering a firearm.

There is no Federal gun registration requirement for most types of

firearms. Only those firearms under the National Firearms Act (e.g.

machineguns) are required to be registered with ATF. However, firearms

registration may be required by State law. ATF does not have any

jurisdiction over State laws. You should forward all inquiries as to

State law to your State's Attorney General Office.  

Your question pertains to State law. ATF does not have jurisdiction over

State law. You need to contact your State's Attorney General Office to

inquire about the laws and possible restrictions in your State regarding

assault weapons.  A list of contact numbers may be found at

www.naag.org.

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.  Should you

have additional questions, please contact your local ATF office.  A

listing of ATF office phone numbers can be found at:

http://www.atf.gov/field.  

Regards,

Firearms Industry Programs Branch, ATF"

[WNYBuckHunter]

I also shot another email to the NY state main ATF field office.

[WNYBuckHunter]

U.S. Department of Justice

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Office of the Director

Washington, DC 20226

26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM ) 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM) 26 U.S.C. 5845©: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE) 27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)

27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (PISTOL)

A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; or (convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm. A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.

ATF Rul. 2011-4

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received requests from individuals to classify pistols that are reconfigured into rifles, for personal use, through the addition of barrels, stocks, and other parts and then returned to a pistol configurationbyremovalofthosecomponents. Specifically,ATFhasbeenaskedto determine whether such a pistol, once returned to a pistol configuration from a rifle, becomes a „weapon made from a rifle‰ as defined under the National Firearms Act (NFA).

Some manufacturers produce firearm receivers and attachable component parts that are designed to be assembled into both rifles and pistols. The same receiver can accept an interchangeable shoulder stock or pistol grip, and a long (16 or more inches in length) or short (less than 16 inches) barrel. These components are sold individually, or as unassembled kits. Generally, the kits include a receiver, a pistol grip, a pistol barrel less than 16 inches in length, a shoulder stock, and a rifle barrel 16 inches or more in length.

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Certain parts or parts sets are also designed to allow an individual to convert a pistol into a rifle without removing a barrel or attaching a shoulder stock to the pistol. These parts consist of an outer shell with a shoulder stock into which the pistol may be inserted. When inserted, the pistol fires a projectile through a rifled extension barrel that is 16 inches or more in length, and with an overall length of 26 inches or more. Other parts sets require that certain parts of the pistol, such as the pistol barrel and the slide assembly, be removed from the pistol frame prior to attaching the parts sets. Typically, a separate barrel is sold with the parts set, which is 16 inches or greater in length. The barrel is installed along with an accompanying shoulder stock. The resulting firearm has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an overall length of 26 inches or more.

The NFA, Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, requires that persons manufacturing, importing, transferring, or possessing firearms as defined in the NFA comply with the Act‚s licensing, registration, and taxation requirements. The NFA defines the term „firearm‰ at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include „(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;‰ („short-barreled rifle‰) and „(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length‰ („weapon made from a rifle‰). The term „rifle‰ is defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845© and 27 CFR 479.11 as „a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.‰ Although not defined in the NFA, the term „pistol‰ is defined by the Act‚s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as „a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)‰ (emphasis added).

Unassembled Parts Kits

In United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992), the United States Supreme Court examined whether a short-barreled rifle was „made‰ under the NFA when a carbine-conversion kit consisting of a single-shot „Contender‰ pistol was designed so that its handle and barrel could be removed from its receiver, and was packaged with a 21-inch barrel, a rifle stock, and a wooden fore-end. The Court held that, where aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and applied the „rule of lenity‰ (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not considered a „short-barreled rifle‰ for purposes of the NFA.

However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (convert a

-3- complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a

long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13. Assembly of Weapons from Parts Kits

The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled „rifle‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845©. The inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26 U.S.C. 5845©. Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the definition of „firearm‰ in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been made. See, e.g., United States v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11th Cir. 1997); United States v. One (1) Colt Ar-15, 394 F. Supp. 2d 1064 (W.D.Tenn. 2004). Conversely, if the parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not subject to the NFA has been made.

Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or „any other weapon‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no „weapon made from a rifle‰ subject to the NFA has been made.

Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a „weapon made from a rifle‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a „pistol‰ because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand.

Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:

(a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or

(Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including ˆ (1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and

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(2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.

Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.

To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded.

Date approved: July 25, 2011

Kenneth E. Melson Acting Director

[WNYBuckHunter]

So, after reading this, what I get is that its legal as long as you dont put a pistol barrel (16 inches or less) onto a frame that is equipped with the rifle stock. That is the ATF position on this.

Next step is to contact NY state and make sure its legal by them.

Email has been sent to NYS Troopers Pistol Permit division