Antler Restrictions - What are your thoughts?

[Pat Rockets]

Think i try to think of hunting in a bigger picture..beyond me.. >

[MountainHunter]

The Cornell polling data in the AR pilot units with much higher participation numbers was very similar,actually it was a couple of percentage points higher.

The DEC concluded that there is no biological need,I had read that misinformation also.

I have no interest in a sustained griping match about AR's. I don't need them to kill big bucks and my horn rubber maid garbage can and wall would clearly indicate that.

Where in the natural order of a species is a population represented by 75% plus of juvenile males? It's not!

All the DEC cares about is deer numbers and the dollars that come from us sportsman,the rest is white noise for them,they could care in the least!

[SteveB]

Scot - who is shooting them if 2/3 are in support?

[MountainHunter]

Scot - who is shooting them if 2/3 are in support?

In the AR pilot units? Hopefully no one. I have heard that it is likely that the AR pilot program will be scrapped. The primary reason being that the DEC doesn't have the resources to compile the data to sufficiently examine as to whether the program is working or accomplishing what it was set out to do.

It will be a shame if that comes to pass because any serious deer hunter in those units has seen a dramatic shift in the age class of bucks represented.

[SteveB]

Scot - who is shooting them if 2/3 are in support?

In the AR pilot units? Hopefully no one.  .

No - statewide. The claim is 2/3 support them statewide and yet somewhere between 60 and 75% of the buck kill is 1 1/2. If  2/3 really support it (plus those who don't support but practice letting smaller bucks walk) who is doing the killing?

[Pat Rockets]

Turn 2yr old deer into monsters thru feeders..and naturally older bucks will slip thru the cracks

[SteveB]

Great idea - turn deer hunting into a state operated farm.

They can't balance a budget and we want them to tackle something like that?

Maybe they could dart and tag all the state allowed "shooters" once grown with 2 big blaze orange

ear tags so all the hunters having problems picking a "shooter" by themselves would be relieved of

any personal responsibility for their decision. They could use this to ensure all hunters get an equal opportunity at a "shooter" regardless of their skill or comittment.

Socialism at it's best.

[SplitG2]

Maybe they could dart and tag all the state allowed "shooters"

now that's funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pat Rockets]

  think a possible 15.5 mil might prevent the state from tossing out the idea...possible tourism draw also:D  :Dd :DI :D

[MountainHunter]

Scot - who is shooting them if 2/3 are in support?

In the AR pilot units? Hopefully no one.  .

No - statewide. The claim is 2/3 support them statewide and yet somewhere between 60 and 75% of the buck kill is 1 1/2. If  2/3 really support it (plus those who don't support but practice letting smaller bucks walk) who is doing the killing?

I haven't claimed 2/3rds support state wide. If you believe I did perhaps you would copy the portion of the thread where I made that assertion.

The support in the  AR pilot program area's polling data exceeds 2/3rds and if they were to poll again I would be willing to bet the support would be even higher because the doubters have had opportunity to see some of the results.

Has the entire state been polled? If so why don't you share what those results are.

As long as you want to play the question game,why don't you answer mine. In the natural order without human interference what species of animal has a population that is made up of 75% juvenile males?

It is clear you have your beliefs but don't assert they are biologically sound. They are not. They have no basis in biology. Freedom of choice is not biology!

[Pat Rockets]

Im lookin to feed my family..not antlers to feed my rep..i get deer every yr...antlers are bonus

[SteveB]

I haven't claimed 2/3rds support state wide. If you believe I did perhaps you would copy the portion of the thread where I made that assertion.

2/3 is a typical claim by AR supporters from supposed polls - their claims, not mine.

It is also what those in the AR claimed was minimum support.

Again, if there is that much support, why is it needed to be mandatory?

With that much support, who is killing the 1 1/2's?

As far as what's natural, the herd hasn't been close to natural in 100's of years since we have been invading their territory - 3 pt AR is going to change that when nothing else is close to what it was 100's of years ago? The deer are healthy in any part of the state where we kill enough to keep them within habitat limitations. Unless we get rid of about 95% of the people, natural is something for the history books.

I answered yours - try mine.

Who is killing the young bucks when everyone claims to want AR?

[16. ga hunter]

where does this figure of 75% of new yorks beard being juvinile bucks come from if that was the case wouldn't there be fork horns running every where instead of does?  "Where in the natural order of a species is a population represented by 75% plus of juvenile males?"    and i doubt that 2/3 of nys hunters are in support contact your dec for a survey next fall when you buy your liscence so we can get a real number

[Geno C]

Scot - who is shooting them if 2/3 are in support?

bingo...

[Geno C]

Turn 2yr old deer into monsters thru feeders..and naturally older bucks will slip thru the cracks

you sound ALL for feeding/baiting/feeder. at;east thats what i get from you. if it was up to you, it would all be legal?

[nyantler]

Rocket I have used this doe concept for about 20 years now.. and after about 30 does or so since then... have never killed a button buck

it would be nice but you can not expect everyother hunter to be able to tell the difference from a nice doe and a button buck. mistaking a button for a doe happens all to much and i can see that being an issue and also a sort of contridiction to the system if AR was the way.

the current system we have doesn't protect buttons but we still have plenty of 1.5 year olds each year... protecting the 1.5 year olds even with the same button kill that we have today would still produce older bucks each year to fill in age classes..  the doe killing idea I speak of would not be a law but would just be a way of reducing button kill if that is a concern to you..

not shooting lone antlerless deer and waiting for multiple antlerless deer to be present and selecting the biggest of the group is one of the ways to reduce the button kill... not asking guys to be able to tell the difference between a button and a nice doe... but as long as we're on the subject... if you look at the head of a button buck it is short nosed and round... an adult doe does not have the same short nose but a longer not round head making them easier to pick out if you need a comparison

[MountainHunter]

I haven't claimed 2/3rds support state wide. If you believe I did perhaps you would copy the portion of the thread where I made that assertion.

2/3 is a typical claim by AR supporters from supposed polls - their claims, not mine.

It is also what those in the AR claimed was minimum support.

Again, if there is that much support, why is it needed to be mandatory?

With that much support, who is killing the 1 1/2's?

As far as what's natural, the herd hasn't been close to natural in 100's of years since we have been invading their territory - 3 pt AR is going to change that when nothing else is close to what it was 100's of years ago? The deer are healthy in any part of the state where we kill enough to keep them within habitat limitations. Unless we get rid of about 95% of the people, natural is something for the history books.

I answered yours - try mine.

Who is killing the young bucks when everyone claims to want AR?

You didn't answer mine. Not even close!

http://www.hvqdma.com/do-antler-restrictions-really-work/

Do you know who Dick Henry is? Where he retired from?

You guy's are same old same old. You have no interest in biology you just want to do what you want to do. When you can't answer with sound logic you go to the emotional.

"I want to feed my family" type garbage. Shoot a doe,become a better hunter,get a second job.

[nyantler]

well if there are 400,000 deer hunters and 100,000 bucks killed... that means at most 25% of hunters killed all the bucks (that is if nobody took 2 bucks) if 75% of those bucks were 1.5 years old that would mean that 75,000 bucks were killed by 75,000 hunters.  That would mean 18% of the total hunters killed 1.5 year olds... so it is mathmatically possible that even less than 1/3 of the hunters took 1.5 year old bucks... meaning that it is entirely possible that 2/3 of the hunter population are still passing on yearlings.

[nyantler]

oh and that would still leave 16% that didn't have an opportunity to kill a buck..

[SteveB]

Scott -  So who is emotional? I shoot 4 to 5 does every year and haven't shot a buck in 6 years - but don't support mandatory AR. You don't like my reply so you counter with 

I want to feed my family" type garbage. Shoot a doe,become a better hunter,get a second job.

- 100% wrong in regards to me. A reply with zero logic and fact, nothing but pure emotion.

And while nyantler's math shows it may be possible for the 1/3 to take all the 1 1/2 bucks, no rational person would believe that that 1/3 accounts for 75% of the kill year in and year out. Fact is and everyone honest knows that a lot of the alleged 2/3 supporters don't fell strongly enough about it to practice it voluntarily. In fact the majority of them would eagerly target the nearly 60% of 1 1/2 bucks in the 3 wmu's around me that are 6pt or better. And be proud of following AR by killing the easiest buck in the woods because it had enough points.

[MountainHunter]

There was another gentleman who in the absence of logic went to the I want to feed my family comment. I wasn't addressing you specifically with that comment,and in reality was not looking to be harsh to that gentleman. I just don't buy that contention.

[SteveB]

Fair enough.

[nyantler]

Scott -  So who is emotional? I shoot 4 to 5 does every year and haven't shot a buck in 6 years - but don't support mandatory AR. You don't like my reply so you counter with 

I want to feed my family" type garbage. Shoot a doe,become a better hunter,get a second job.

- 100% wrong in regards to me. A reply with zero logic and fact, nothing but pure emotion.

And while nyantler's math shows it may be possible for the 1/3 to take all the 1 1/2 bucks, no rational person would believe that that 1/3 accounts for 75% of the kill year in and year out. Fact is and everyone honest knows that a lot of the alleged 2/3 supporters don't fell strongly enough about it to practice it voluntarily. In fact the majority of them would eagerly target the nearly 60% of 1 1/2 bucks in the 3 wmu's around me that are 6pt or better. And be proud of following AR by killing the easiest buck in the woods because it had enough points.

Steve.. i agree that most hunters don't practice what they preach.. and it entirely possible that what you say is most likely the case.. but you have to admit now... that it is mathmatically possible 

I really think that although a lot of guys think AR is a good idea... they will not voluntarily impose one on themselves ... you see.. if the state imposed AR on them... they would be more comfortable saying they didn't get a buck that year because they didn't see one big enough... they don't lose face that way... but as things stand... even though they like the idea of what AR's might do for the buck age class.. they would sooner cut out their tongue than have to tell their buddies they didn't get a buck..

[SteveB]

Exactly Joe - easy to talk, harder to walk. And a points based AR still lets them feel good about shooting a buck no older then the spike that was with him.

[Pat Rockets]

Me, my wife, my 3 boys, my inlaws on wed...all family..all enjoy my harvest...all yr..i was preached to thats the way you think...feedin the family..that preacher has a garage full of all types of antlers...