Doc

I guess it has something to do with upbringing. I was raised to recognize that we are a nation of laws and as such proper citizen behavior is to respect the law, obey the law, and to have respect for those that enforce the law. That's just the guidelines that I was raised with. I still believe in all that. I also believe that you can have a disagreement with a law and the proper response to that kid of disagreement is to follow the system to get that law changed. I was also raised to despise law breakers. With very few exceptions, that principle of my upbringing is still engrained too. I am a hard-line law and order proponent.

Who says that opinions don't get changed on internet forums? .... lol. I have always been a proponent of the old argument that if you pay attention to your wind direction, that act alone will take care of any scent problems. And I have experienced situations that seemed to prove that. But the problem is all the swirling, ever changing wind directions would have you dashing all over the woods trying to chase wind direction. So, all you people who have been highlighting the fact that wind direction is not always something you can successfully handle, and all those who swear by scent prevention activities, now have changed my mind. That doesn't mean that I am running out and spending my last dime buying every scent control product. It also doesn't mean that I will not be questioning how people determine what products work and which don't, or how on earth you determine whether or not a product is really doing anything but draining your wallet. But now I will have to admit that when I don't buy all the soaps and clothing that is designed to minimize your scent, and get all goofy and paranoid about scent removal, there definitely is a risk that goes along with that especially when hunting hill/valley country.

I have always made the assumption that our membership is not reading-challenged. Perhaps that isn't true in all cases.

I believe that the early deer hunting bow season is being jealously eye-balled by all kinds of hunters. I have heard the comments (right or wrong) about how the bowhunters are getting the first crack at all the best bucks and how the buck population is being thinned before the gunners even get a chance at them. The warmer temperatures make that particular time of the year a much more pleasant time to hunt. And then there is the rut component of the bow seasons that makes everyone want some involvement in hunting that time of year. And now we have the eager accomplices, the DEC, who can't stand that the population thinning activities are being wasted on a weapon of challenge. Some of this has moved from simple grumbling to actual official plans for implementation in some WMUs. There is no doubt that the DEC has definitely had a change of attitude toward bow hunters from neutral to hostile. So there is definitely going to be some more action at some point where bowhunters will be forced to take on what will appear (and what really is) an exclusionary stance that will once again be branded as selfish and elitist. You can take that to the bank. And so I have to ask, is fighting for the integrity of these special seasons really selfish or elitist? Seriously, when the shrill cries of selfish and elitist begin, is there really any basis in fact for those allegations? I thought a discussion of that without the heat of being actually engaged in an actual live bitter controversy is a worthwhile thing to establish. Perhaps the whole notion of "special seasons" is in question. That whole idea seems to generally incite discord and bitter disputes among hunters who would otherwise get along quite reasonably. Maybe special seasons are selfish and promoting of self-serving attitudes. It just might be that the hunting population cannot tolerate set-aside time segments for minority special weapons uses. Maybe the whole idea was a bad one.

Ha-ha .... now there is something you're not likely to ever witness .... lol.

The potential for this becoming a hatchet job on hunting or even meat eating is significant. This hunter will not be participating.

I had one a bunch of years ago for a stroke. I was so preoccupied with the stroke crap that was scaring me to death, that I really can't remember a whole lot about it.

Desperation can be a very pathetic thing.

Ha-ha ..... Isn't that the truth? It seems that every year there is a different excuse for disappointing harvests. I don't think they have used too warm weather in a bunch of years.....lol. I wonder if they have a book of excuses filed away on a shelf somewhere.

I came across this hunter standing about 50 yards from my house, leaning on the butt of his shotgun with the muzzle resting on top of his boot. The guy was drunker than a skunk. his eyes were blood red, and he was having a hell of a time standing upright. I talked with him a bit just to let him know that the house was there and to remind him of the setback requirements for discharging his gun. He apologized and went staggering off toward the road. I have to admit that I really didn't know what to do. I was a bit concerned for this guy's safety, but didn't realize that I probably should have called the cops or something. This guy was heading back to his car, and he really shouldn't have been anywhere near the road in his condition. I found out later that drunken hunting is illegal too (for good reasons). That experience was probably a lot more scary than strange, and I believe I handled it all wrong. I just never encountered anything like that, and got caught completely off-guard.

No, the NYS Environmental Conservation Laws say nothing about "common sense". There are explicit starting and stopping times and that is a good thing. At least it keeps all those shots in the dark down to a dull roar. Those idiots are using their version of common sense too. The problem is that contrary to their own beliefs, they really don't have any. I get a kick out of those who try to justify ignoring or thumbing their noses at the laws based on inconvenience. It really sounds like the bigger the rack, the more laws it justifies breaking. Hey .... these are the armed people we have out there in the woods with us. And then there are those who are struggling to get everyone to admit that they break the law so they can feel good about doing it themselves. You drive 5 MPH over the speed limit? Well great, let's all go out jack-lighting tonight. Damn ..... what on earth is wrong with you people? You are not talking about accidently or inadvertently or mistakenly breaking the law. You are bragging about or admittedly planning on willful illegal action. And sadly you don't even see anything wrong with that.

As a matter of fact, all through hunting season, it is a daily routine to check the sunset and sunrise times for each day. It's not really that much of an imposition .... lol. I have the weather site bookmarked in the computer, and wham-bam.... it is the easiest thing I will probably do that day. It almost happens automatically since I am in there daily getting the latest read on the wind and weather forecast so I can plan the hunt.

You have zeroed in on my concern exactly. I know that the DEC is determined to get more efficient weapons into a season that they consider a "throw-away" in terms of meeting their deer harvest wants. Yes they tried once a decade ago to cram an early muzzleloader season into bow season territory and failed. They are currently working an end-run in a few WMUs to force an early muzzleloader season (perhaps even a concurrent one). And I am completely convinced that it is simply a matter of time before the debate begins in full. I am also anticipating another huge bowhunter uprising trying to keep bow season for bows. And I am anticipating hearing the same shrill allegations of "selfishness", and "elitism", and all the other whinings that have worked so well in the past for those that would insert themselves into the bow seasons. And so, I am looking specifically at those allegations and knowing what's coming, I am trying to determine whether defending the content of these special seasons does indeed constitute selfishness and elitism.

I've often wondered if there isn't some risk of a cover scent actually spooking deer. I know these dirt scent wafers aren't just a small cake of dirt in a container, and assume that they are chemical compounds where the artificial dirt smell is enhanced in some test tube fashion. I have no idea what other chemicals with their own un-natural scents may be included and which of those ingredients may actually be foreign and alarming to deer. How does the consumer really know how deer are reacting to some of these chemical concoctions?

Not that all this hasn't been discussed to death, you seem to avoid the point that the whole principle of shooting disciplines are essentially the same between all vertical bows. The ideas of back tension, follow through, arm positioning, grip, and all the other form and execution shooting principles that books have been written about are uniform across all the vertically held bows and absolutely irrelevant to crossbow shooting. Yes, the shooting principles of crossbows are firearms related. Even the methods of resting, sighting, various stances, and steadying the crossbow are directly related to rifle shooting. All of these things have been discussed ad infinitum. But I am not going to begin the re-hash of the years of argument all over again. There is no point. I am willing to explain my point of view and opinions, and will occasionally rise to the untrue charges of selfishness and elitism, but there is no point re-explaining things to people who really have no interest in listening.

What? We just make up the rules to whatever suits us. Look, I once was coming home from hunting on a nice moonlit night with snow on the ground and just for the heck of it, I looked through my scope to see if I could see my crosshairs. And by golly I could. does that mean that I should feel justified in shooting any deer that had been out in that field. My gosh some of you people can justify anything. Look, unless we are willing to forgive jack-lighters, we have to call a halt to the day in some organized and recognizable way. At least most of us believe we should. What is wrong with sunrise to sunset. Really .... are you people that desperate? I always have to wonder about people who think they should be able to make their own rules. I wonder just where they draw the line, or if they draw any lines at all. I guess I have had that question answered every opening day morning when I hear those shots in the dark.

But you see, "just the way things are" is basically telling gun hunters that bow season is "our" season, and no deer-guns are welcome. That is the point of this thread. As long as we have any "special seasons", there will always be exclusion, and some very adamant exclusion. And that can be defined as the root of selfishness. We do become protective of our seasons. I am an avid bow and gun hunter ... both weapons. But as a bowhunter, I am essentially saying to gun deer hunters, "Get the hell out of the bowhunting woods with your rifles and shotguns. This is our time to hunt and you are not invited". To me that sounds like a selfish attitude, but I believe it is one that is shared by the overwhelming majority of bowhunters. So my question to you all here, "is that being selfish or not"? Is it normal and natural for participants of one of these special seasons to try to protect those seasons or is there automatically a selfish designation when you try to exclude other hunters from your season? Anyway, I was just kind of taking the temperature of the membership here to see if everytime there is a challenge to the contents of these special seasons (as I believe there will be in the future), will this "selfish" claim be coming up, and indeed is that claim a true assessment of bowhunter attitudes.

I know that everyone has some tried-and-true set of procedures or rules that they use to combat buck fever, but most of them don't work when the real occasion comes. Lets face it, it is an irrational mental condition that can cause a whole variety of symptoms ranging from paralysis to light-headedness. I have heard of guys emptying their gun into the dirt in a buck fever attack. Others couldn't pull their bow back. Others forgot every part of their form checklist and fired before even coming to full draw, and on and on go all the symptoms of an attack of buck fever. I personally have experienced a very huge buck that was playing me for over 1/2 hour, pacing back and forth behind a screen of thin brush, making false advances toward a path that would have put him broadside at 20 yards and then reversing back over to the far side of the brush screen. He was actually staging at the edge of a small field waiting for darkness to step out. He was restless and wanted to go out in the field, but simply would not. Instead he paced back and forth next to me just inside the edge of the thicket. 1/2 hour he taunted me with that nonsense. He had me so worked up that I did have a couple of bouts with light-headedness where I honestly believed I was going to pass out (your basic panic attack). I didn't pass out, but I do believe that when he got done with me, I was a total mess. Finally, it became quitting time (sunset), and all I could do was take a back trail around him and go home. Had he come through that trail and got on my side of the bushes, I have to say that I sincerely doubt that I ever could have made (or even attempted) the shot. So as I hear these so-called buck-fever cures, I have to say that I remain skeptical. There may be times when they might work, but there are occasions that can occur that no matter what you try to do, your mind just will not follow any rules or patterns of behavior.

Don't cure it ...... enjoy it. That is the kind of excitement that I go out hunting for. Those things that cause "buck fever" are the things that make it all worth doing. I have had deer that I could have reached out and touched (if I was fast enough), that provided excitement that came close to having me pass out. That level of intensity makes the whole thing memorable whether I get the deer or not. My goal always is to get the deer as close as possible, and that is just so I can experience that out-of-control excitement that you have.

So, are we bowhunters, and now also crossbow hunters, being selfish in excluding firearms hunters from our season? Are we displaying the "Our-deer" syndrome by demanding special, long seasons that precede any firearms deer hunting? Is there some kind of selfishness being displayed by those that want a large chunk of deer season reserved only to our chosen weapon? Yeah, it sounds like a trolling topic, but I seriously want to know if perhaps over the years I have picked up an element of selfishness in my hunting attitudes as a bowhunter. Does one segment of hunters really deserve preferential treatment over another segment?

Ha-ha-ha ....... We are always looking for that guaranteed fool-proof way to kill a deer. I have often wondered what I would do if someone came up with a scent, sound, or some other gimmick that actually worked every time and simply made the deer come in to be shot ... every time ...... like a lamb led to slaughter. Would I actually use it? I'm pretty sure I would not. Sometimes it is interesting to think about why we are out there. Is it all about proving how well some lab product or manufacturer's ability to invent and market deer-fooling products and substances? When it comes to hunting, that is one situation where I do prefer it to be "all about me" as much as possible. I don't want some "magic potion" ..... lol.

Depending on where you are hunting, there are some spots where you just can't avoid the "swirling" crap. The closer you get to the areas of 8N that get into those steep hills and deep valleys, the more unpredictable wind direction becomes. I have seen certain areas that blow 180 degrees from any forecasted wind direction or any of the surrounding areas. I have one spot next to a 200' deep vertical rock walled ravine where the wind is never consistent for more that 5 minutes. It is a great area to see and be scented by deer. They love this area, because they have scent warning systems from all directions.....lol.

I have seen so much creative land posting over the years. Some of it looks like the guy just wandered through the woods nailing signs anyplace he found a good tree. Some people don't seem to grasp the concept .... lol.

I understand it is ridiculous also. I too have never seen an itisoktog in any books either. You've got a good point there bubba. Sorry ..... I couldn't help myself.

But wait until next year. You will be thrilled that they logged it as you see what has grown up in it's place. As far as the weather, it is always a pain in the butt at this time of year. That is just something we have to accept and learn to adapt to.