Doc

First of all, I have never called a compound bow primitive equipment. Although 95% of the shooting principles and disciplines of a compound are exactly the same as those of longbows and recurves, no one can look at that contraption and call it primitive. I can't recall back when bowseason was established anyone using the word "primitive" either. Believe me with the laminated fancy recurves and the beautiful lines and the modern engineered designs of the day, we didn't look at them as being primitive. They were state of the art archery equipment. But we did understand that shooting any bow with all the form disciplines and drawing procedures, restrictions and other crazy rigid and unyielding requirements, shooting a bow of any kind did pose a unique challenge for harvesting deer and that was the appeal and the reason that the season was originated. Frankly, I don't think that it would make any difference to the attitudes of any of the crossbow proponents whether or not "the season was longbow/recurve only". Actually the desire to force themselves into bow season has very little to do with the weapon itself other than the fact that it is pretty rifle-like and easy to shoot without all those nasty shooting form requirements. I don't believe there are a whole lot of people who are madly in love with crossbows. The whole deal is that people are looking at the season itself with the warmer weather, and the less frantic hunting atmosphere and the positioning of the rut and saying to themselves, "You know if I could get into that season with something that isn't so damn hard to shoot, I'd love to bust into that season". Come on, let's be honest. That's really what all the fuss is about. As far as the comments about crossbows allowing more people to be afield, lets be honest, it really boils down to a simple re-distribution of gun hunters into bow season. A way has now been found to allow gun hunters to break into bow seasons without a lot of demanding pain, and don't be expecting that trend to end with crossbows.

I would think the state would be interested in knowing that. Usually there is one of the DEC people at each region that is responsible for some of the parcels in that region. He is the guy you want to be talking to.

8N may have an outstanding reputation for high deer kills, but that doesn't mean that every acre of that WMU is full of deer. one thing to remember is that it is in a highly pressured area with a high hunter population, so you have to expect high harvests. Also, it is a widely varied habitat, not all of which is suitable for deer. So if you have had problems with the season so far, do not get discouraged. Just try changing up locations a little bit, and see what happens.

Huh???? Did you mean to start a new thread or something? I don't understand the connection between the topic and your reply. Interesting comment and interesting statistic, but what has that got to do with what was being talked about?

If your priorities don't allow the time to master your weapon, I think it is probably not the method of hunting for you. Time doesn't allow me to utilize all the hunting opportunities that are available. That's just the way life is constructed. But I don't feel that everyone need to move over and make way for my personal schedule. But then that's just me. Now in terms of your "selfishness" comment that crossbow proponents are so fond of using, now that you have successfully shoved your way into bow season, it will be interesting to see how magnanimous you people are when the muzzleloaders step into "your" season. Although, you may actually have more common ground with them than I am thinking. I know you have no alignments with the concepts that bowhunting was originally created for, so perhaps you will welcome all kinds of firearms or anything other than those time-consuming bows into your new bow season.

Yeah, it must have been the tempo ....lol.

Really? I wish I would have been paying attention. I didn't see much difference, but then that's not surprising since I am out of the game this year. It would have been interesting to have gone down to the state parking lots to see if there was any significant difference in the number of cars. It doesn't seem to be much response to this thread so we are not going to get any idea from here.

I have heard the theory of pushing deer to prevent them from laying up and licking the wound, etc. And I do have to admit that whenever tracking a deer and coming to a bed, the next blood was always a problem finding. I have been lucky and have been able to eventually find the next blood after the bed, but was always a tough challenge. That does lend some credibility to that idea of pushing deer, and keeping the wound open and working and denying them a chance to administer their version of emergency first-aid. But I still have not really adopted that procedure. For one thing, I am not really that fast to be very effective at running down a deer, even a badly wounded one.....lol. And that whole idea does run contrary to 99% of everything I have ever heard or read about deer tracking. I guess I will leave that kind of experimentation to other people .... lol. I'll stay with the conventional wisdom on this one.

Are you kidding? I know it has been a while since I have dealt with surveyors, but that I so far out of whack with any of my experiences or those of anyone I have talked to that it is really hard to imagine those kinds of quotes being anything but blatant highway robbery. It must have something to do with the area. Anybody else have any experiences with actual survey costs?

And good luck to you, Sits. Get a big one.

And if not for the luck of having made this thread, the result would have wound up a clear and blatant disregard for the law. Look, we can argue all day about what was in the minds of both individuals, but the fact is that this thread properly took the approach of providing useful information while the other was simply a malicious flame-fest style of feeding frenzy. And that is the point that you seem to want to ignore.

And that part of my reply was a true observation wasn't it? The rest of it was a "if the shoe fits....wear it" kind of response.

I can't begin to imagine what would account for a quote like that for only a 20 acre parcel. You all were smart to step away from that guy. I would have immediately checked out another surveyor that was not quite as interested in ripping off his customers. Don't be afraid to challenge these guys. Perhaps he is planning on doing something super spectacular that you aren't even asking for. I don't know, but that quote for a 20 acre survey is nothing short of ridiculous.

Maybe the purchase price of the land was included .... lol. No anyone who gets charged that much for surveying 20 acres needs to contact the police and report a major case of robbery that has just taken place.

Come-on! Are you saying you don't understand what "I am sure the captain did not tell you it does not say you liked it so anyone can tag it sinc" means? I'm pretty sure he is talking about some kind of a tag on your sink. And you are supposed to like it. Yeah .... that's it.

Yeah, this thread is getting a bit difficult to follow, but I believe you are crediting Belo with the "lazy" quote which is not one that he actually made. I tried to track this comment back because something didn't seem quite the way I remembered it all. Anyway, here's the chronology : ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wolc123 (Actually a crossbow proponent) on post number 70 stated "There are plenty of deer to go around but they do deserve to be killed cleanly. If the crossbow can help us "lazier" folks do that, why keep them out? To which jjb4900 replied on post no. 109 - "I don't understand why you equate ones "challenging" themselves with wounding deer" To which Belo replied on post no. 125- "what's not to understand. he has very clearly stated that crossbows are good because people are lazy and they shouldn't have to work hard." So if you are going to criticize someone for the "lazy" comment, you have to aim that criticism at your pro-crossbow compadre wolc123. That was the source not Belo. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yup you do need a roadmap to follow this one.....lol. I hope I followed it all correctly. I hate to see a discussion side-tracked over a mistaken quote.

Damn Bill ...... I keep on living but never seem to catch up with you ...... lol. Good to see us folks still out there fighting with Father Time and still wandering the hills and slinging arrows. Well, most of the time anyway .... Ha-ha-ha. You have a happy birthday and get ready for another great year.

The original bow season was created by and for bow hunters so they could take part in a unique way of providing weapons challenges to their deer hunting .... period. It was not at all about bringing in any significant money. It was not about any imagined impact on herd management and in fact was not participated in by any significant numbers of hunters for a long time and was looked on as a very low impact curiosity by most hunters. Yes it has grown in popularity over the decades and the nature of bowhunting has changed significantly every time a new weapon or technological advancement was introduced. Is that a good thing? Probably not if the whole removal of the concept of challenge is the necessary result and now the primary thrust of the activity. Further NYS bowhunting history: http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/574-history-nys-archery/

It is interesting that the effort never did focus on expanding handicapped access to crossbows. However, it did provide a very emotional issue to push the true agenda of jamming crossbows across the board into bow season.

I was bowhunting before compounds, and I was there when the introduction of compounds divided the bowhunters. And I remember the specific arguments for and against. I recall that those against compounds argued that compounds would set precedents that would be used to insert all kinds of other weapons into bow season. Now, decades later, I can only say that that argument has been fulfilled and strengthened. Each new step toward accommodating those that don't wish to develop the skills but still want to participate in bow seasons moves us closer to losing all that we have worked so hard to establish. Just as compounds have provided the precedent for crossbows, the crossbows will provide precedents for other weapons to infiltrate bow seasons. All the reasons why bow season was deemed worthy of its own special rules and timeslots are being removed, piece by piece. Gun hunters are already questioning why bowhunters need these advantages as archery success rates continue to climb. Where will it all end? ....I don't really know, but judging from the results of the compound introduction, my guess will be that the changes will not stop with crossbows. Revisions will accelerate, until the obvious conclusion will result that there are no real purposes for special seasons, and there will be legal changes that will essentially make the differences between bow seasons and gun seasons irrelevant in a practical sense. Just as wild advances of compound technology took archery away from the primitive pastime that the season was created for, crossbows will simply provide yet another raw platform for even crazier technologies to build onto. At some point crossbows will become the precedent that opens the season up to even more additions including some versions of firearms. The inclusion of muzzleloaders is a long-standing item on the wish-list of the DEC. It really is just a matter of time before all of the reasons that we each moved into bowhunting will disappear. And we will become the new orange army that we tried to escape when we took up the bow. Sounds impossible? well, remember that the DEC has already threatened that within a couple of seasons in certain WMUs muzzleloaders will likely join our ranks. The precedent of firearms in bow seasons has already been established and accepted. So the unwritten rule of no firearms in bow seasons has already been trashed. Some bowhunters already see the handwriting on the wall and fight the trend to trash bowhunting. Others don't really give a damn if these things happen or not, and then there are the majority of hunters who are eagerly pushing to make these things happen and bowhunters to be pushed out of the woods. So, I have no doubt that the continuing push to eliminate bowhunting as we knew it, will happen. And that's why I continue to drag my feet and fight the inevitable. Something wonderful is being lost, and I simply don't want to see it happen.

Let's throw the black flies, ticks, and no-see-ums onto that list too. In fact there are times when those stinking deer flies could go extinct too as far as I'm concerned.

No, you are exactly right. Sometimes you can read the same law that the judge or ECO, or JP is reading and everyone comes out with a different interpretation. Your guilt or innocence is declared after someone in authority decides their interpretation. It doesn't matter whether you actually interpreted the law correctly or not according to the original authors. You can still have the honor of paying the fine and whatever other penalties that they can decide to levy against you.

There was never a bow season that was created to "manage the deer herd". For that matter, even the muzzleloader season was not created for that purpose either. They both were created to accommodate those that wanted challenge added to their deer hunting through a handicapping via the weapon used ..... period. And yes they have been bastardized unmercifully until it is beginning to be questionable why special seasons are even existing or needed. And by the time they are done, I'm sure more than a few will be asking why these kinds of weapons need there own seasons. In fact, that kind of talk is already getting louder and louder as success rates continue to grow.

Companies have found it a lot more cost efficient to spend their dollars on advertising "claiming" to have quality, than to improve designs and materials to actually achieve it. And in saying "companies", I should not include all of them. The automotive industry talks quality, and has the record to back it up, for the most part. Yes, I do remember the rust buckets from the 70's that were only able to reach 100,000 miles with tons of Bondo and constant maintenance. So far, most of today's cars see 100,000 miles and keep right on going past (not all)....lol.

Don't be afraid to invest some time small-game hunting. Hunting for squirrels (very edible good tasting meat) will teach you a lot about stealth and patience as well as shooting under pressure. Also while being out, you will likely see deer, and simple observation of deer can be a powerful tool in learning how to hunt them. A lot of us started out hunting the lowly squirrel .... lol.