Doc

I can't begin to imagine what would account for a quote like that for only a 20 acre parcel. You all were smart to step away from that guy. I would have immediately checked out another surveyor that was not quite as interested in ripping off his customers. Don't be afraid to challenge these guys. Perhaps he is planning on doing something super spectacular that you aren't even asking for. I don't know, but that quote for a 20 acre survey is nothing short of ridiculous.

Maybe the purchase price of the land was included .... lol. No anyone who gets charged that much for surveying 20 acres needs to contact the police and report a major case of robbery that has just taken place.

Come-on! Are you saying you don't understand what "I am sure the captain did not tell you it does not say you liked it so anyone can tag it sinc" means? I'm pretty sure he is talking about some kind of a tag on your sink. And you are supposed to like it. Yeah .... that's it.

Yeah, this thread is getting a bit difficult to follow, but I believe you are crediting Belo with the "lazy" quote which is not one that he actually made. I tried to track this comment back because something didn't seem quite the way I remembered it all. Anyway, here's the chronology : ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- wolc123 (Actually a crossbow proponent) on post number 70 stated "There are plenty of deer to go around but they do deserve to be killed cleanly. If the crossbow can help us "lazier" folks do that, why keep them out? To which jjb4900 replied on post no. 109 - "I don't understand why you equate ones "challenging" themselves with wounding deer" To which Belo replied on post no. 125- "what's not to understand. he has very clearly stated that crossbows are good because people are lazy and they shouldn't have to work hard." So if you are going to criticize someone for the "lazy" comment, you have to aim that criticism at your pro-crossbow compadre wolc123. That was the source not Belo. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yup you do need a roadmap to follow this one.....lol. I hope I followed it all correctly. I hate to see a discussion side-tracked over a mistaken quote.

Damn Bill ...... I keep on living but never seem to catch up with you ...... lol. Good to see us folks still out there fighting with Father Time and still wandering the hills and slinging arrows. Well, most of the time anyway .... Ha-ha-ha. You have a happy birthday and get ready for another great year.

The original bow season was created by and for bow hunters so they could take part in a unique way of providing weapons challenges to their deer hunting .... period. It was not at all about bringing in any significant money. It was not about any imagined impact on herd management and in fact was not participated in by any significant numbers of hunters for a long time and was looked on as a very low impact curiosity by most hunters. Yes it has grown in popularity over the decades and the nature of bowhunting has changed significantly every time a new weapon or technological advancement was introduced. Is that a good thing? Probably not if the whole removal of the concept of challenge is the necessary result and now the primary thrust of the activity. Further NYS bowhunting history: http://huntingny.com/forums/topic/574-history-nys-archery/

It is interesting that the effort never did focus on expanding handicapped access to crossbows. However, it did provide a very emotional issue to push the true agenda of jamming crossbows across the board into bow season.

I was bowhunting before compounds, and I was there when the introduction of compounds divided the bowhunters. And I remember the specific arguments for and against. I recall that those against compounds argued that compounds would set precedents that would be used to insert all kinds of other weapons into bow season. Now, decades later, I can only say that that argument has been fulfilled and strengthened. Each new step toward accommodating those that don't wish to develop the skills but still want to participate in bow seasons moves us closer to losing all that we have worked so hard to establish. Just as compounds have provided the precedent for crossbows, the crossbows will provide precedents for other weapons to infiltrate bow seasons. All the reasons why bow season was deemed worthy of its own special rules and timeslots are being removed, piece by piece. Gun hunters are already questioning why bowhunters need these advantages as archery success rates continue to climb. Where will it all end? ....I don't really know, but judging from the results of the compound introduction, my guess will be that the changes will not stop with crossbows. Revisions will accelerate, until the obvious conclusion will result that there are no real purposes for special seasons, and there will be legal changes that will essentially make the differences between bow seasons and gun seasons irrelevant in a practical sense. Just as wild advances of compound technology took archery away from the primitive pastime that the season was created for, crossbows will simply provide yet another raw platform for even crazier technologies to build onto. At some point crossbows will become the precedent that opens the season up to even more additions including some versions of firearms. The inclusion of muzzleloaders is a long-standing item on the wish-list of the DEC. It really is just a matter of time before all of the reasons that we each moved into bowhunting will disappear. And we will become the new orange army that we tried to escape when we took up the bow. Sounds impossible? well, remember that the DEC has already threatened that within a couple of seasons in certain WMUs muzzleloaders will likely join our ranks. The precedent of firearms in bow seasons has already been established and accepted. So the unwritten rule of no firearms in bow seasons has already been trashed. Some bowhunters already see the handwriting on the wall and fight the trend to trash bowhunting. Others don't really give a damn if these things happen or not, and then there are the majority of hunters who are eagerly pushing to make these things happen and bowhunters to be pushed out of the woods. So, I have no doubt that the continuing push to eliminate bowhunting as we knew it, will happen. And that's why I continue to drag my feet and fight the inevitable. Something wonderful is being lost, and I simply don't want to see it happen.

Let's throw the black flies, ticks, and no-see-ums onto that list too. In fact there are times when those stinking deer flies could go extinct too as far as I'm concerned.

No, you are exactly right. Sometimes you can read the same law that the judge or ECO, or JP is reading and everyone comes out with a different interpretation. Your guilt or innocence is declared after someone in authority decides their interpretation. It doesn't matter whether you actually interpreted the law correctly or not according to the original authors. You can still have the honor of paying the fine and whatever other penalties that they can decide to levy against you.

There was never a bow season that was created to "manage the deer herd". For that matter, even the muzzleloader season was not created for that purpose either. They both were created to accommodate those that wanted challenge added to their deer hunting through a handicapping via the weapon used ..... period. And yes they have been bastardized unmercifully until it is beginning to be questionable why special seasons are even existing or needed. And by the time they are done, I'm sure more than a few will be asking why these kinds of weapons need there own seasons. In fact, that kind of talk is already getting louder and louder as success rates continue to grow.

Companies have found it a lot more cost efficient to spend their dollars on advertising "claiming" to have quality, than to improve designs and materials to actually achieve it. And in saying "companies", I should not include all of them. The automotive industry talks quality, and has the record to back it up, for the most part. Yes, I do remember the rust buckets from the 70's that were only able to reach 100,000 miles with tons of Bondo and constant maintenance. So far, most of today's cars see 100,000 miles and keep right on going past (not all)....lol.

Don't be afraid to invest some time small-game hunting. Hunting for squirrels (very edible good tasting meat) will teach you a lot about stealth and patience as well as shooting under pressure. Also while being out, you will likely see deer, and simple observation of deer can be a powerful tool in learning how to hunt them. A lot of us started out hunting the lowly squirrel .... lol.

I would hate to guess how many thousands of dollars worth of purchased software that I have lost because no one is worrying about compatibility issues when thy upgrade operating systems on computers. Much of that incompatible software that was trashed was actually superior to today's crappy replacements. Your right. They have mastered the art of screwing the consumer. And for the most part, because they threaten to stop supporting the old operating systems we are forced to play their game. It doesn't matter though because most consumers love the game and can't wait to trot right off to load the new OS's regardless of what they lose. It seems to be more about being the first kid on the block to have the latest piece of hi-tech crap.

I don't change the dates on my cameras or scouting reports or spreadsheet hunting database, or other things where I will be recording times. All times are daylight savings time ( I am assuming that eventually daylight savings time will be the year around standard) regardless of whether EST is in effect or not. I sometimes do some extensive analysis work on my hunting/scouting/sightings databases and I need a consistent time system throughout the year. If all of a sudden an hour is added or subtracted from the time entries, it really screws up any comparative analysis that I may be attempting to do.

I have to congratulate the hi-tech communications industry on how they have successfully created a market where all they have to do is introduce new models and they have people conditioned to spend whatever it takes to be the most up-to-date user. It's like watching sheep responding to someone banging on a grain pail ..... lol. I watch kids (and adults) throwing down perfectly functional smart phones simply because a new model comes out .... even when the new capabilities are something that they won't even use or need. I am really bummed that I never got involved in that industry in some receiving fashion and foresaw the narcotic-like effects that hi-tech would have on the public of the future.

And the fact is that no crossbow is as reliable at quick and humane kills as a scoped rifle. So if your overwhelming concern is to be always using the most reliable weapon for a quick kill then bow season was not created for you. Throw down that clunky crossbow and pick up a rifle and end your concerns. Do not muck around in the season of those that have entered the bowseason with a desire to use and accept the handicap of a bow. And my answer for those that refer to themselves as lazy, and undedicated, and too busy to use the bow season correctly and responsibly is to get the hell out of bow season and get your deer with the gun in the proper season. That is a weapon that is more in tune with the ability, responsibilities, and effort that you are willing to undertake. Why try to pry your way into a season that is not compatible with your lifestyle?

Are we talking gun season or bow? Is the hunting grounds private and tightly controlled, or heavy pressured public land? Are we talking clear sunny days, or a driving rain? Time of day (losing daylight?). All of these things and more can have a bearing on what you have to do after the shot.

Then maybe the discussion should center on whether a bow season should still be maintained at all. I'm sure it is only a matter of time before that thought gets argued in earnest (for the very same reasons). In fact, in many gun circles, that thought is already a hot topic.

Lol .... Those best spots will just continue getting better until I have a go at them with a rifle in my hands. But thanks for the offer....Ha-ha-ha.

"Buck battles gone bad". This is the one I would like to see quantified. I wonder just how many deer deaths can be attributed to direct wounding, or loss of energy going into winter due to the stress of full on pitched battles. And how about those other things like broken bones of wound infections, etc. I have never seen anyone really discuss that in terms of buck mortality rates.

Of all the reasons for inclusion of crossbows, this is the line of logic that I have the biggest problem with. That is because what is being said here is that the bow is an inadequate deer hunting weapon because there are people who refuse to devote the effort to shoot them well. That line of thinking has no limit to it. It says that anytime a hunting season has any challenge to the weapon of use, more advanced weapons should be continually added until the requirement of skill goes away. Taking that to its logical conclusion says that the creation of a bow season was a mistake. Bow season was created to allow a special time of year for using a weapon of a unique skill (challenge). Obviously the bow creates a need for an additional level of effort and responsibility to accommodate that challenge. This argument basically says that weapons technology has to be added to all special seasons until the weapons of maximum ease are included for those that lack the will to devote the time and effort to become proficient. Bow season was created for exactly the opposite reason. It was designed specifically for the addition of challenge. So this idea that skill needs to be taken out of hunting as much as possible goes right at the heart of any of the special seasons that promote the use of challenging weapons. Take away the challenge of the weapon, and you have taken away the fundamental reason for the special season because the ultimate most efficient weapon with the least amount of required skill is the rifle.

Ha-ha .... legs still work well, so I'll still be out in the woods scouting and working with my new camera. Of course with my luck, that will be the time when some 12 point buck with antlers so large that he can hardly hold his head up will walk by, stopping at 15 yards in a nice broadside situation thumbing his nose at me. Probably if I listen real close, I will hear a bit of a giggle.

I use my Primos bipod for my rifle, and I'll bet it would work as well on a crossbow. Yes they did get carried away with their pricing, but it is a quality product and really operates smoothly and easily. The first thing I did on mine was to rig up a sling on it so I can get it out of my hands for easy carrying. Something that I think primos should consider adding to their products.

Well, look at you getting all indignant .... lol. I probably should remind you that not everything is about you. There were 5 pages of replies in that thread, and I don't recall mentioning your name or your comment. My comments here are simply that I am finding a general lack of consistency between these two threads, in terms of what we are getting outraged over and what we accept as being simply a mistake. Personally, I find most of that kind of judgmental crap unnecessary and there comes a time where we begin to cross over from simple information sharing as in this thread, to page after page of un-ending malicious moralizing, as in the other thread.