Doc

I can accept the fact that most people with tons of experience and very refined tastes, can probably tell the added quality when meat is aged. But I do have to wonder if the average person can really tell the difference. In fact the only venison that I have complained about was a venison dinner of incorrectly "aged" meat. Man was that stuff rank. Apparently the process was incorrectly applied, or over-applied. I think that most hunters do not have the proper facilities that the pros have that have the closely regulated temperatures and whatever else the process demands. As I understand it, it is a pretty precise process among professional slaughter houses. Most of us do not own a walk-in cooler, and rapid processing during warmer seasons is probably going to produce venison that is absolutely acceptable.

LOL .... God that is lame .... Ha-ha-ha. Look, I'll tell you what, Bunky. Seeing as to how your discussion skills have once again screwed yet another thread, and dissolved into childish insults, give me yet another one of your feeble shots and then you can say you had the last word that you so desperately need. I think everyone has heard just about enough of this, and it's pretty obvious that you are running out of quality insults. So take your best shot and then give everybody a break.

Well, I'm not sure that this thread answered any earth-shattering questions for anyone, but at least it was a good airing of all the fears and attitudes that people have about civilian involvement in law enforcement. I have to say that I do understand pieces of every argument. Personally I have an attitude that relies on motives or intents and the possibilities that violations may or may not be repeated that determine whether I will blow the whistle. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, so says the government. But if I am convinced that the violator really didn't have a clue about the law or the interpretation of it, I likely will let a first offence slide without reporting it. I have seen enough instances of mass confusion on this forum regarding the laws, that I can certainly be sympathetic in that area. On the other hand, I don't want to hear bragging about law breaking or any signal that violations are intentional. That will get me involved damn quick regardless of the consequences. There is also an element of severity that enters into my decision to report or not report. Some things are not worth the hassle for me, the DEC, or the violator to even bother with. It's a judgment call. Is that all the exact correct way to deal with reporting violations? .... I don't know, but it is my way.

They are just like any government agency. Sometimes they get it right, and sometimes they don't. And I am always right there to have an opinion on which is which, case by case.

It really is not worth the effort. I think my assessment of your discussion techniques is pretty much on the mark, and you know it too.

Believe me, I am not an apologist for the DEC. I have been a very harsh critic of theirs. But I also do understand that their job is not as simple as drawing up a list of laws and regulations from other states that sound real neat and making that our game management plan. And yes, I will give them credit when they do not engage in some of the silly logic that I sometimes hear on this forum. And yes, I can whack them on top of the head when they do something that defies all understanding. And when it turns out that they have not fallen to faulty reasoning, they have to get credit for that too. No, unlike you, I have not declared total war on the DEC. They are not my enemy in any way that I can prove.....yet. And yes, I will always be free with my opinions, both positive and negative, and there is no circular logic in that or any speaking out of both sides of the mouth, simply an honest assessment as I see it. Of course you know that but apparently you had to have something negative to put in your reply. I'm sorry you feel that way because it does make civil discourse and constructive conversation just about impossible.

And there you are whining about how something is worded rather than adding anything useful to the discussion. In fact that's all you ever do is whine about how someone is expressing themselves. Never do you have any constructive additions to the discussion. And yes my comment in that last reply is absolutely appropriate. If there is so much commonality across the country, then why is each state struggling to come up with their own unique versions and nuances to their deer management. While you are whimpering about how something is worded, you are running away from the truth of the statement. If things are so common from one state to another, a pooled federal activity absolutely could be set up nationwide to define "best practices" in deer management. But then everyone except a couple of people on this forum understand that. But the point has been well made and even each of every different state understands that they have their own peculiarities and needs and they all have to design their own management to handle the uniqueness of their own circumstances. I don't even see how anyone can argue that. I have outlined a few of the more glaring unique features of NYS which are so obvious that it surprises me that I have to list them. And if you guys were not so busy trying to prove me wrong, you would have to have the honesty to admit the obvious. Regional problems require regional solutions. Yeah that's right. One size does not fit all. Not here within the state and certainly not across the country. Things from other states can and should be looked at and I'm sure already have. But it is just patently ignorant to say, "Well gee it works there so it has to work here". While the DEC has many known flaws that they should work on, thank heavens their logic is not that screwed-up as to apply that kind of reasoning.

Each new rifle purchase begins a search for an optimal load. Once the component selection is made and bullet production specs are developed, that is my "locked-in" formula for bullet building forever on that rifle. However, like someone above mentioned each gun that I buy also involves a box or two of factory ammo just to give me time to buy components and also give me some instant gratification of shooting my new gun right out of the box.

Well, perhaps if there is no state uniqueness, we should have a federal deer management oversight agency that sets the rules for the DEC to administer. Apparently it is being assumed that there is one set of management principles that apply from coast to coast. Frankly, I don't buy it. I cannot think of a single state that has the diversity that NYS has all in one state. Right off the bat, that is what caused us to establish a Northern Zone and a Southern zone with some pretty basic and necessary differences in people and deer density, and habitat and climate and hunting pressure. And yes, we do have huge climate differences from one corner of the state to the other. And then there are the Catskills that have their own little management nuances. We can't even get commonality within our state boundaries, let alone apply "what works" from other states. I suspect that the DEC wishes that it were as simple as cherry picking from other states. Yes we are unique. And I for one will not presume to think that the idea to look to other states for management theories, research and actions has never been thought of by the DEC.

I think what they are saying is that hunters in that area are not shooting an adequate number of does to keep the population from continuing to explode. Regardless of where the hunters of that area stand in the percentages, they still are not keeping pace with the available does. There is something unique about that region that is causing an out-of-control deer population, they say. Each year they have doe tags left over that no one is interested in picking up. So flooding the area with more permits is simply not hacking it anymore. So the question still has to be asked (and not ignored or buried in BS), why this one relatively small area of NYS has this unique problem. And I am simply asking that question. And no the solution is not to run off and randomly try this idea or that idea from some randomly selected state. This unique regional problem will require a unique targeted regional solution. And my thought is that when that question that I am asking is answered, there may very well be some major breakthroughs in deer management that may reach beyond the boundaries of these few WMUs.

It is true that just about any plan you can devise can be cheated. That is why it is important to get serious (not contrived) hunter buy-in. And yes, you will still get the cheaters. And you will have to work to foil as many of those cheaters as possible just like they have to do with any conservation law in existence. But if you can get the majority of hunters in synch with what you are trying to do, the cheating problem gets a little less. Not only do you get more conformance, but you get more willing eyes out there to aid in bringing down cheaters. However, I do agree that a lot of ideas sound great until you start to examine the details. Those "details" are good to bring up and talk about.

Care to address the discussion rather than simply worrying about how I express myself. I mean that whining in the face of not having anything real to say is getting pretty darn old. My gosh, at least I have opinions and don't have to harp about a few words that seem to sting in your craw. I mean really, if you have something real to add lets hear it, but you people who rave about all these ideas with the zeal of an insurance salesman (sorry insurance salesmen) really shouldn't whine so much when somebody paraphrases your enthusiasm with a few accurate descriptive alternative terms. As to your last paragraph, I'm sorry that I have opinions, and I'm sorry that they rankle you so, but this is a forum where opinions are expressed. Get used to it.

I doubt it is deer in the summer. Are they cut or broken? Are they dead or alive? Any pictures?

I guess the old "grass is greener" syndrome can apply to hunting too .... lol. Perhaps our deer management should just consist of blindly copying all the other states. But then since none of them have all the same answers to all the same problems, how do we decide which one has it right?...lol. Which ones of all those "perfectly managed" states has the same human population densities, hunting pressures, variety of terrain, land use, and habitat, and extreme weather zones that we have? No I am not saying that there are not some ideas that we can successfully borrow from other states. But I also am not ready to assume that just because some other state has adopted any of these programs, that it automatically is some magic bullet for NY. I'm sure there is a bit more to management than just copying other states. But then, I am no better than any of the other armchair game managers on this site. We all do a heck of a job of game management when we get in front of our computers......right?

You really do have to wonder why this is getting to be a growing problem in some areas and not in others. In fact if you look at the areas they have defined as being out of control, there seems to be a "regionality" to it. Are the cultural changes really all that isolated that they would only show up in certain clustered specific areas? What is unique about those isolated areas that makes people not want to shoot does? I like the line of your questions and think that you may be thinking outside the box and that may be where the solutions lie. Looking at the map, it seems that the problem is localized, and if I were the DEC, I would be asking what it is that makes these areas unique. Perhaps it could suggest a whole category of solutions that no one is even considering.

I agree that the no tolerance regulations against shooting lane trimming is a bit ridiculous. But such relaxation of this restriction has to be well thought out and crafted carefully. I don't think we want people going in with power equipment and clear cutting shooting lanes. Also, I believe there are some species that should not be messed with. So some good definition, and I believe that the regulations on this could be (should be) relaxed a bit.

Keep us posted as to how the deer react to all the commotion. It is a great learning opportunity, because I have never encountered the scenario you are describing. I am curious too.

I'm not sure yet. I can't really see any harm in it, but haven't really thought too much about it.

Oh no .... I'm not getting into this one. It's too damned embarrassing.

No what this amounts to is a bit of inspection of potential negatives rather than just charging headlong into a plan simply because it sounds good on the surface. And I do have to wonder about whether the grass really is greener on the other side of the state line as everyone seems to want to say when they are enthusiastic about some of these cure-alls.

Agreed. What is up with all the secrecy regarding facts, figures, goals, etc. It makes one wonder if they really do have any of that. It does seem that everytime they offer a peek inside the workings of the DEC, there are even more doubts and suspicions that maybe there is no cohesive plan or perhaps they are truly operating by the seat of their pants. Brings to mind that old saying: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt". But I agree. The relationship between the DEC and hunters seems to be a one-way partnership in which hunters are dictated to without the benefit of knowing where the dictates are headed or the details, whys, and wherefores of the actions. They may not believe it, but to me it is obvious that they need the buy-in of those carrying out the plan (hunters). The success of the plan relies on it. So either they feel that buy-in is not necessary, or even scarier, maybe the facts and figures don't exist and the DEC is just winging it.

That was funny! What makes them do that? is it really playfulness that all of a sudden strikes, or is it bugs finally getting to them?

And, I'll bet that's the way it is with most hunters. The title of this thread may be more on target than the thread author thought. "1 and done" may be exactly the real result that OBR produces. And I wonder how that result would impact the harvest of does in those areas where high populations are a problem. No, I don't really wonder.....lol.

It's even more disheartening that the DEC finds it necessary to develop bonehead plans like this antlerless only edict in certain areas. And yet, here we are. Now the reality..... Hunters want to hunt. They for the most part do not want to manage. We pay taxes to have that done. As it turns out, for the DEC to be effective in their job, they must have the cooperation of the hunters. So, if they have to do some cajoling and enticement that will likely work a whole lot better than dictating and restricting. Yes there is definitely some educating and promotion that needs to be done. But the mentality of hunters has to be understood and dealt with, since they are the only population control tool that has so far proven to be viable. We have gotten into this mentality where antlers are the only measure of success in deer hunting. That, I believe, is the root of the problem that results in the refusal to shoot does. The fact that we can issue permits until we run out of paper, and hunters refuse to use them, shows that there is a hunter mindset problem. Until somebody figures a way to put a feeling of challenge and satisfaction back into shooting does, we may very well have to rely on gimmicks that provide an acceptable reason and incentives to these hunters to shoot a does. We can decry the fact that we have to resort to that, but we also have to face the human nature involved in the problem.

Well, first my Mathews MQ-32 will have its turn. But when that opener for gun season rolls around, I will be all hunkered down in my piled up brush blind, dressed like a blaze orange Eskimo, sitting on my stool with a pack full of cold fried egg sandwiches and the thermos of coffee and other goodies strewn around me, binocs dangling around my neck and my Ruger American .270 waiting to do the job. My gun stands turn into a camp of sorts, and I make a real party of it all.....lol.