Doc

Nope! The webbed foot thing would indicate some kind of duck. Any water around?

Don't just look at the number of bucks hit. All of the deer movement increases significantly during the chase phase of the rut. In fact a lot of doe/fawn family groups are busted up with all the chasing, and the stupid fawns can find themselves suddenly on their own. They make perfect victims to car collisions. If you can document any unusual and significant spike involving all deer in that November time-frame, you probably have come pretty close to seeing when the chase part of the rut occurred. That would be a darned interesting experiment.

Yeah.....I can only remember one buck that I ever killed during that "crazy-time". A doe ran by about 50 yards away, so I quickly re-positioned myself into a near collision course with the trailing buck. He nearly ran me over, but stopped dead still at 10 yards broadside when he winded me. I had already drawn from behind a huge blowdown. I think calling that a stupid blind luck situation would be understating it a bit. Other than that one time, all other sightings during all that running occurred out of bow range and offered no shots. So I really try to get my deer before all that nonsense starts.

50 yards on the practice range can be the final test of your hunting set-up. That doesn't mean that you have to shoot at deer at that distance. It's just a practice routine that proves out your equipment and also adds a little interest to your practice sessions. I occasionally shoot well beyond 50 yards on my archery range, and can do it quite well. However shooting at a stationary target under archery range conditions is not really the same as a hunting situation where the deer can take a step or two at anytime between when you decide to let the arrow go, and the time that the arrow actually gets to the deer. I keep my shots at 30 yards and under. And a nice 15 yard shot is really what I am after. I kind of try to see how close of a shot I can get, not how far I can shoot.

Can you explain a bit more about how the baiting ruined the hunting? Was it because all the baiting around him was drawing the deer away from his property or what?

From the comments that I have heard from most hunters here and elsewhere, they really wish that coyotes were not a protected species, and were treated more like rats, woodchucks, and bugs. That kind of attitude removes the fair chase thoughts. So, if we wonder why they apply a different standard to coyotes than they do deer, that attitude probably figures heavily into it. I have mixed emotions about coyotes, and probably come down more on the side of those who really wish they had not reappeared here in NYS. To me they do represent a form of vermin. I probably would feel the same if all of a sudden wolves or cougars showed up here. So if some hunters want to use extreme methods to hunt them, I have no problem with that. Anyway, from what I read, it sounds like there are no methods that really threaten to eradicate them anyway. So I don't think we really need to be too concerned for their welfare.....lol.

I suppose that the first thing you have to do is define which phase of the rut you are talking about. When the time comes that the bucks are chasing does over every hill and valley, I really can't say that I have had a lot of luck. And when that part of the rut is in full force, luck is all you can call any success. That's the time when you see bucks of all sizes that you have never seen before and they are running at a full trot (makes for a lousy shot) after a doe through the middle of the woods, nowhere near any trail and nowhere near where you are standing. That's a pretty tough deal for a bowhunter. Not exactly my favorite kind of deer hunting.

As I understand it, the whole system is based on harvest numbers. That much is easy to understand. But what they do with those harvest numbers is what would be interesting to read. Even though the harvest number reporting seems to be treated like a mere suggestion rather than the actual legal requirement that it is, this seems to be the major building block of the whole system. And from this, and the input from their CTF's they come up with some way of determining DMP numbers. Yes there sure has to be a lot of other necessary stuff between those couplke items that never gets explained, and that would be the stuff that would make interesting reading. Frankly I would be interested in how habitat is factored in, and how habitat is actually assessed, measured and turned into a numerical factor. It would be interesting to see how winter-kill, disease and predation are measured and factored in. Most of all, it would be interesting as to how they handle the verification process (how do they measure success of their system?) . They certainly can't and don't do any physical counting, so what is it that they do to prove they are not getting statistical drift? Ah, so many questions and so few answers

There is one thing to be said of hunter opinions. They are the only ones that actually set foot on the ground. Whether they are interpreting what they see correctly or not is certainly up for question. But I do believe that for their little corner of the woods, nobody knows the population situation as well as those that actually walk the land and make real observations. That doesn't work too well for WMU conclusions, or even township-wide conclusions. But when you take a whole area of hunters all saying the same thing as they were back a few years ago, it sure seems like something has gone terribly wrong when those opinions run contrary to the DEC's official numbers. In fact the DMP quantities issued by the DEC back then showed that they were paying a bit of attention to all those hunters also as numbers all of sudden were revised to more accurately reflect what was going on out there.

I think that when it comes to coyotes (and other predators), the gloves come off. Fair chase is not an issue when it comes to the attempt at eradicating coyotes. We have this attitude that similar to mosquitos ...... the world would be better off without them. Whether we all agree with that attitude or not, I think that answers your question as to why principles of fair chase apply to one species and not the other for many hunters. Another obvious consideration is that when it comes to the coyote trapline, baiting has been an acceptable practice for centuries. There's not much of a fair-chase implication there. It's not a great leap to apply trapping ethics to hunting ethics. Perhaps another example would be shooting rats at the dump. Is there any rules of fair chase being worried about there? Are there any fair-chase concerns when it comes to roach baits/traps? .......bug-spray? How about those mouse traps? Let's face it, we do pick and choose what rules we apply to each different species. That's why we hunt and trap coyotes but feed and house our pet dogs. Different species get different considerations from humans. And it doesn't always make perfect sense.

Is there anybody who really believes in the DEC's ability to properly estimate the deer herd numbers in any area? Yeah, I know, their computer and statistical models have been audited by some experts from somewhere and found to be just wonderful. And yet there is evidence from past years that they do screw up and sometimes quite badly. I think they are just like the weathermen ...... their actual abilities are often lacking, but they are able to baffle everyone with fancy numerical footwork to get enough believers to make themselves look like experts. Oh my ..... that's harsh! But really, sometimes I wonder.

That's an interesting thought because I'm sure there is a relationship between car/deer collisions and the rut. No it wouldn't necessarily be a prediction set of data for future years, but may serve well as some sort of verification of the various rut-timing theories and how well they actually worked.

Interesting discussion. So is it illegal to possess these baits or is it just illegal to use it as bait. In other words if it is kept from any possibility of contact with deer (as in the example in the original post) is it still fitting the definition of "baiting". I have often wondered about farmers with their salt blocks. Technically it is a bait but because the intent is not "baiting", the blocks are legal to possess and distribute for the farmer's critters. It would be a different story if the farmer were to be caught shooting a deer that had been attracted to it. So in that case the decision that illegal baiting is taking place seems to based on use rather than simple possession. :-\

Lifetime license and tags came in the mail today. I still haven't got my nifty credit card style license. This is the third year. I feel slighted .....

According to the weatherman last night, the drought has been erased. My rain guage has recorded over 5" so far for August. However, I have a shallow pond (about 5' deep) behind the barn that is only a puddle right now that you could walk across with knee-boots. So, I'm not sure just how effective a lot of this rain is in raising the water table. Let's put it this way: I'm not about to start washing the car and watering the lawn from my well.....lol.

I guess I don't see why any New Yorker wouldn't complain about ANY additional taxation no matter how small. I'm thinking the reason NYS finances and taxes are the way they are is because too many people think everything is a bargain. They actually welcome and encourage higher taxes and fees with their passive acceptance. For me there is not one increase in fees that I wouldn't fight no matter how small. Given the mentality of our tax and spend government, to do any different invites abuse and retards fiscal reform.

I occasionally shoot the longer distances in order to boost confidence on the more realistic hunting distances. I also have to admit that it's just plain fun to shoot the longer distances. I like to watch the arrow flight. get back to 80 yards and let one fly. It's amazing how even the super fast bows have one heck of an arc. In fact for some real impressive arrow trajectory, try it with a recurve. Just make sure that there are no overhanging limbs along the way ..... lol.

I guess everybody has their own limits when it comes to exactly what constitutes that "final straw". All I know is taxation is a time tested way of reducing behaviors. It works! Even in cases where the amount really doesn't seem to be that significant. In some cases it is an exagerated effect that grows in people's minds. In other cases, it is a case of rebellion. And in a few rare cases, it is a real hardship. I know one thing, the impression is (true or not) that the NY sportsmen and women are being financial beat on a bit lately by the DEC. So it really doesn't take a lot more of the same kind of thing to set people off.

Ok, I guess I missed all that. I have to admit that with the entire thread being dragged along with each reply, my eyes started giving out a long ways back. Now, as far as what you are asking Dave or whoever to do, is most likely not a reasonable request. You are asking him to do a research project to come up with data that most likely has never been accumulated. In fact it is unlikely that the DEC is even capable of making that kind of assessment. If we are going to ask that every opinion stated here on this forum be backed up with statistics and documentation which most of us laymen have no access to, then things could get mighty quiet here ..... lol. I think I can deal with a certain level of logic and maybe even a certain amount of intuition. And perhaps even a good old fashion gut-feel might not be totally unacceptable .

Lol ..... I think the only number that's needed to show the role that money plays in their decision is : "$10". That's a good number .... lol. It's obvious that they have finally recognized that there's money to be made in selling permits rather than giving them away. Now where that mentality leads them, well I'm not sure. Will it taint their management decisions and influence their quotas. Who knows ..... It certainly is a possibility isn't it? Will it cause them to start trying to find ways to force as many hunters as possible to have to pay the cash? ....... I think I would be surprised if that didn't factor into some of their decisions. I would guess you would have to be pretty darn naive to not at least question it. I suppose it wouldn't exactly be the first government activity that was driven by cash. Ah but then maybe I am a bit cynical to have such a suspicious mind ..... lol.

Per Section 11-0531 of volume 1 of the Environmental Conservation Law of New York: Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, or any other law, rule or regulation to the contrary, on and after July 1,1971, it shall be unlawful for any department or division of this state, or any political subdivision thereof to pay bounties on taking of wildlife, except when the state Department of Health, or any local health authorities determine that a given type or class of animals constitute a health hazard as carriers or potential carriers of disease. ---------------------------------------------------------- So as near as I can find, there is no legal way that coyote bounties could be levied except for reasons of health and public safety. However, for those that want a challenging version of hunting, and also a bit of minor income, I will point out that coyote pelts are worth a bit of money and a heck of a tough adversary that will challenge the best of us. We're all hunters. Let's go get a few of them. Also, for the trappers among us, I'll bet you don't need a bounty to make a few extra sets for coyotes. Go for it!!!

I'm starting to get a bit nervous..... :-\ . I haven't gotten a thing yet. But I remember last year it seemed that everyone else had gotten theirs before mine finally came.

In fact I did take a picture of it when I saw it. Sorry about the quality of the picture. It looks like the camera didn't focus on the tree but rather on the background. Unfortunately, it is up on top of the hill, a bit more than a mile from the house, and I'm not likely to get back up there for quite a while. While the rub looks a bit half-hearted, there were a few tine marks that went quite deep. I included the glove in an attempt to show the relative height. It was all I had with me at the time....lol.

I just found out how well goldenrod can trip off a trailcam when the wind is blowing. 44 pictures and only two that were actually triggered by deer ..... lol. I guess I have to go down and move that camera :-[ . Too bad, it looked like a real good trail and that was the only tree in the area for fastening on the camera. Oh well ..... live and learn.

In my younger years, I used to run a fairly long and profitable trapline. In fact as a kid, I used to provide spending money and buy my school-clothes through trapping. It seems that back then every rural kid around ran a trapline. I don't really see that anymore. So it's good news to me to hear that there are other areas where trapping is more popular. I was getting the impression that it had all but disappeared. And perhaps when considered as a percent of the population or even a percent of what the trapper population used to be, that still might be a fairly accurate notion. So getting back to your original question, perhaps the reason for lack of participation has something to do with the people getting used to being slammed by the antis everytime they start talking about trapping. Or maybe it's just the independant nature of trappers that keep them from being involved in computer forums. Then too, trapping is a seasonal activity, and right now there's not anything going on other than preparation and scouting for next season. I don't know, it's always difficult to figure out participation issues on forums, and I am only guessing. The only way to get more activity in that forum is to start posting. I have had some limited participation there, but not being an active trapper anymore, my interest level is a lot different than it would be if I still trapped. But I still check in everytime there is a new post there.