Doc

I think that when it comes to coyotes (and other predators), the gloves come off. Fair chase is not an issue when it comes to the attempt at eradicating coyotes. We have this attitude that similar to mosquitos ...... the world would be better off without them. Whether we all agree with that attitude or not, I think that answers your question as to why principles of fair chase apply to one species and not the other for many hunters. Another obvious consideration is that when it comes to the coyote trapline, baiting has been an acceptable practice for centuries. There's not much of a fair-chase implication there. It's not a great leap to apply trapping ethics to hunting ethics. Perhaps another example would be shooting rats at the dump. Is there any rules of fair chase being worried about there? Are there any fair-chase concerns when it comes to roach baits/traps? .......bug-spray? How about those mouse traps? Let's face it, we do pick and choose what rules we apply to each different species. That's why we hunt and trap coyotes but feed and house our pet dogs. Different species get different considerations from humans. And it doesn't always make perfect sense.

Is there anybody who really believes in the DEC's ability to properly estimate the deer herd numbers in any area? Yeah, I know, their computer and statistical models have been audited by some experts from somewhere and found to be just wonderful. And yet there is evidence from past years that they do screw up and sometimes quite badly. I think they are just like the weathermen ...... their actual abilities are often lacking, but they are able to baffle everyone with fancy numerical footwork to get enough believers to make themselves look like experts. Oh my ..... that's harsh! But really, sometimes I wonder.

That's an interesting thought because I'm sure there is a relationship between car/deer collisions and the rut. No it wouldn't necessarily be a prediction set of data for future years, but may serve well as some sort of verification of the various rut-timing theories and how well they actually worked.

Interesting discussion. So is it illegal to possess these baits or is it just illegal to use it as bait. In other words if it is kept from any possibility of contact with deer (as in the example in the original post) is it still fitting the definition of "baiting". I have often wondered about farmers with their salt blocks. Technically it is a bait but because the intent is not "baiting", the blocks are legal to possess and distribute for the farmer's critters. It would be a different story if the farmer were to be caught shooting a deer that had been attracted to it. So in that case the decision that illegal baiting is taking place seems to based on use rather than simple possession. :-\

Lifetime license and tags came in the mail today. I still haven't got my nifty credit card style license. This is the third year. I feel slighted .....

According to the weatherman last night, the drought has been erased. My rain guage has recorded over 5" so far for August. However, I have a shallow pond (about 5' deep) behind the barn that is only a puddle right now that you could walk across with knee-boots. So, I'm not sure just how effective a lot of this rain is in raising the water table. Let's put it this way: I'm not about to start washing the car and watering the lawn from my well.....lol.

I guess I don't see why any New Yorker wouldn't complain about ANY additional taxation no matter how small. I'm thinking the reason NYS finances and taxes are the way they are is because too many people think everything is a bargain. They actually welcome and encourage higher taxes and fees with their passive acceptance. For me there is not one increase in fees that I wouldn't fight no matter how small. Given the mentality of our tax and spend government, to do any different invites abuse and retards fiscal reform.

I occasionally shoot the longer distances in order to boost confidence on the more realistic hunting distances. I also have to admit that it's just plain fun to shoot the longer distances. I like to watch the arrow flight. get back to 80 yards and let one fly. It's amazing how even the super fast bows have one heck of an arc. In fact for some real impressive arrow trajectory, try it with a recurve. Just make sure that there are no overhanging limbs along the way ..... lol.

I guess everybody has their own limits when it comes to exactly what constitutes that "final straw". All I know is taxation is a time tested way of reducing behaviors. It works! Even in cases where the amount really doesn't seem to be that significant. In some cases it is an exagerated effect that grows in people's minds. In other cases, it is a case of rebellion. And in a few rare cases, it is a real hardship. I know one thing, the impression is (true or not) that the NY sportsmen and women are being financial beat on a bit lately by the DEC. So it really doesn't take a lot more of the same kind of thing to set people off.

Ok, I guess I missed all that. I have to admit that with the entire thread being dragged along with each reply, my eyes started giving out a long ways back. Now, as far as what you are asking Dave or whoever to do, is most likely not a reasonable request. You are asking him to do a research project to come up with data that most likely has never been accumulated. In fact it is unlikely that the DEC is even capable of making that kind of assessment. If we are going to ask that every opinion stated here on this forum be backed up with statistics and documentation which most of us laymen have no access to, then things could get mighty quiet here ..... lol. I think I can deal with a certain level of logic and maybe even a certain amount of intuition. And perhaps even a good old fashion gut-feel might not be totally unacceptable .

Lol ..... I think the only number that's needed to show the role that money plays in their decision is : "$10". That's a good number .... lol. It's obvious that they have finally recognized that there's money to be made in selling permits rather than giving them away. Now where that mentality leads them, well I'm not sure. Will it taint their management decisions and influence their quotas. Who knows ..... It certainly is a possibility isn't it? Will it cause them to start trying to find ways to force as many hunters as possible to have to pay the cash? ....... I think I would be surprised if that didn't factor into some of their decisions. I would guess you would have to be pretty darn naive to not at least question it. I suppose it wouldn't exactly be the first government activity that was driven by cash. Ah but then maybe I am a bit cynical to have such a suspicious mind ..... lol.

Per Section 11-0531 of volume 1 of the Environmental Conservation Law of New York: Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, or any other law, rule or regulation to the contrary, on and after July 1,1971, it shall be unlawful for any department or division of this state, or any political subdivision thereof to pay bounties on taking of wildlife, except when the state Department of Health, or any local health authorities determine that a given type or class of animals constitute a health hazard as carriers or potential carriers of disease. ---------------------------------------------------------- So as near as I can find, there is no legal way that coyote bounties could be levied except for reasons of health and public safety. However, for those that want a challenging version of hunting, and also a bit of minor income, I will point out that coyote pelts are worth a bit of money and a heck of a tough adversary that will challenge the best of us. We're all hunters. Let's go get a few of them. Also, for the trappers among us, I'll bet you don't need a bounty to make a few extra sets for coyotes. Go for it!!!

I'm starting to get a bit nervous..... :-\ . I haven't gotten a thing yet. But I remember last year it seemed that everyone else had gotten theirs before mine finally came.

In fact I did take a picture of it when I saw it. Sorry about the quality of the picture. It looks like the camera didn't focus on the tree but rather on the background. Unfortunately, it is up on top of the hill, a bit more than a mile from the house, and I'm not likely to get back up there for quite a while. While the rub looks a bit half-hearted, there were a few tine marks that went quite deep. I included the glove in an attempt to show the relative height. It was all I had with me at the time....lol.

I just found out how well goldenrod can trip off a trailcam when the wind is blowing. 44 pictures and only two that were actually triggered by deer ..... lol. I guess I have to go down and move that camera :-[ . Too bad, it looked like a real good trail and that was the only tree in the area for fastening on the camera. Oh well ..... live and learn.

In my younger years, I used to run a fairly long and profitable trapline. In fact as a kid, I used to provide spending money and buy my school-clothes through trapping. It seems that back then every rural kid around ran a trapline. I don't really see that anymore. So it's good news to me to hear that there are other areas where trapping is more popular. I was getting the impression that it had all but disappeared. And perhaps when considered as a percent of the population or even a percent of what the trapper population used to be, that still might be a fairly accurate notion. So getting back to your original question, perhaps the reason for lack of participation has something to do with the people getting used to being slammed by the antis everytime they start talking about trapping. Or maybe it's just the independant nature of trappers that keep them from being involved in computer forums. Then too, trapping is a seasonal activity, and right now there's not anything going on other than preparation and scouting for next season. I don't know, it's always difficult to figure out participation issues on forums, and I am only guessing. The only way to get more activity in that forum is to start posting. I have had some limited participation there, but not being an active trapper anymore, my interest level is a lot different than it would be if I still trapped. But I still check in everytime there is a new post there.

I found my first rub today (8/11/11). That beats the earliest date that I've seen one before by about 2 weeks. Anybody else found any yet?

Honestly, are there that many trappers left anymore?

Thank heavens we've got a self-appointed keeper of the facts here :

For the record I wasn't talking about anyone in particular.. I was talking in general... and it wasn't meant to be an insult to anyone... it's an observation I have made over the years about most hunter... It wouldn't matter what new hunting regulation came down the pike... or what the situation was with animal populations, or anything that has to do with conservation... hunters simply want what's best for themselves without regard for whether it is or isn't good for conservation... you can call it what you like.. I call it selfishness... the truth is .. if the DEC said that we needed to stop all DMP's tomorrow for the sake of some management concern... guys would have a fit because they wouldn't be allowed to kill their 4 doe this year... they couldn't care less what affect regulations have or don't have on management and wildlife... to me I have seen enough of it that it's a fact.. you might consider it an opinion... either way it's still selfishness... and not a good way to determine what hunting regulations are needed or not. I know what you are trying to say, but when is the last time you ever saw two hunters in a room that could agree on anything. It doesn't always mean they are selfish simply because they have a different point of view on a subject. And of course we always assume that we have the right point of view....right? It's not always self-serving to see things from a different perspective.

Actually it does I think you need to rethink what an attack is and consists of. Of course, some people take anything that contradicts their values to be an attack. Thats usually called being overly sensitive and not being able to handle any type of criticism. OK, call people whatever you want. I really don't have enough patience tonight to play your usual never ending word-games.

Actually it does

I know we all have different ideas on just what regs are required and what their benefits or lack thereof really are, but it bothers me a bit that as soon as anyone comes up with an opinion that is different from our own, we feel it is necessary to trot out the personal attacks. A lot of times these attacks simply boil down to: "I don't like people disagreeing with me, so here's a little insult for you". It's gets transparent after a while. And you have to admit that the old "selfish" card certainly gets over-used on this forum. In fact it's worn out .....

Not a bit. I fully expect a forum to involve differences of opinion. We as hunters have a whole lot of things that generate opinions and usually one guy's opinion is directly opposite of the next. Perhaps the way people express themselves can get a bit objectionable, but you have to remember that outdoorsmen and women are generally very passionate about our activities and how they are conducted. Sometimes it gets a bit overboard. Actually if it weren't for differences of opinion, these forum pages would be almost blank. However, it maybe would be worth recognizing that just because we disagree, it doesn't mean that we always have to go for the throat.

The one thing that I really enjoyed last year was the deer that they had there. But then I don't know that they will be there again either.