Doc

I kind of agree with Furman. Turn the local hunters loose in a "no holds barred" fashion and make the season as long as is necessary to get the job done. No rules, no seasons, no bag limits, and then if there are any left over, turn the professional guns loose on them. And even then, you might want to design a program like our venison donation program only make it for goose meat instead of venison. Whatever....it sure seems this the shoot and bury program should be a last resort. Doc

Yes, as bad as NY is, NJ is living proof that things could be worse.... : Doc

It seems like either way you do it you run a risk of being exactly wrong. But I think if I were forced to choose, I would probably interpret it the way they do. And then I would cross my fingers a whole lot, which I believe is also part of the official management process ..... ;D Doc

That 60% number has to be correct. I'm sure they used the same statistical magic that they use on the rest of their stat manipulations. You know ..... go out and get a sampling of a few dozen and then call it statistically equivalent to the remainder ..... lol. The DEC statistical models have been audited by some statistics gurus and found to be perfect or at least so the public advertising goes. They probably stopped into a gun club meeting and asked for a show of hands and came up with 60% for ARs. ;D Oh my gosh I am getting cynical these days! Doc

I think the last time I clocked it, it was 30 miles from my house to the AB clubhouse. That's 60 miles round trip. Not a problem once in a while, but I don't join those things to attend once in a while...lol. So you can see why I dropped my membership. I was a member there for quite a few years, but that constant drive a couple times a week (We had wednesday night league shoots along with something going almost every weekend, plus work parties and monthly evening meetings) eventually wore me out. The fact that I was driving between 70 and 80 miles round trip back and forth to work every day didn't help either. However, I did have a great time there and had a whole lot of friends that were members. My wife and two kids were members there too, so we made a family thing out of it. My guess is that if there is anything going on there, it would be probably on a Saturday. So maybe I'll head over there again in a week or two and do some tresspassing......lol. Just to see if there is any sign of life there at all. Doc

You have a great time! It's always nice to get away for a while and just flop and relax. Actually, it sounds like a pretty good idea to me. Doc

Look, I know it's important to you that get in the last word, so why don't you just add one more reply and I'll let you have the last word and then you'll be happy. Have a nice day. Doc

Well, that sign is new addition since I've been there. I honestly don't know how the heck we could have missed it when we were over there ...... lol. That is polebridge road, right? Man it must be hard for perspective members to ever join. There is no contact info or nothing. I guess if you don't know a member or something you would probably be out of luck. :-\ Anyway, thanks for the info. I might take a ride over some Saturday and see if I can't find some activity. I don't want to join or anything. It's still way too far. But I would like to see if any of the old gang is still there and what they have been up to and what they're all doing these days. It used to be a great super-active club with a great course and and a great bunch of guys. Thanks again for the pictures and info. Doc

I don't pretend to understand the distance difficulties for urban hunters. I have never even thought about hunting within 500' of somebody's house, and never will. Urban hunting is outside my idea of a quality hunt, so I guess I probably never will be concerned with whatever difficulties that are involved in such a thing. So, I guess I don't have a proper perspective on requests to cut that distance down. I do think I understand how it might be a problem controlling urban and even suburban populations without the ability to hunker down uncomfortably close to a residence. But I also understand landowner concerns. The idea of looking over in my hedgerow and seeing some goof sitting there staking out my yard is not very appealing ..... lol. That might not be the best thing for hunter/resident relations. From purely a safety standpoint, I can't see that being much of a real issue, but again there might be a perception issue even on that point that wouldn't exactly help out hunter/landowner relations. So what do you do with problem herds in tight urban areas. I would leave it up to local municipal control. If an urban area had a problem that was sufficient to warrant some cozy hunting situations, then perhaps they should be permitted in special cases, which would include written permission from the residents affected. If you truly have a problem herd, getting permision from residents that have experienced property damage should be no particular problem. Even with those safeguards, I would hate to be the hunter tracking my shot deer and soming upon a group of crying hysterical children watching Bambi in the final bloody death-throes.....lol. That would be just one possible scenario of many uncomfortable situations that could arise when you are hunting on the doorstep of so many potential anti-hunters. Doc

I think the key is portability because users are going to want to know that at anytime they can dump the info off to their own hard drive in case they leave the forum, or want to perform extra analysis on their data. So your thoughts of being able to easily download the log into a format commonly resident on user's home computers is a good one and a vital one. Doc

Apparently you don't understand an answer when it is given to you, so I see no need to continue trying to get you to understand. And listening to you repeating the same foolishness over and over again really is getting tiresome. Look, to be blunt, the idea is just not worthy of arguing over. It's something that will never happen, never should happen, and its foolish to waste time discussing such a ridiculous thing. If I should ever find that you have had enough conviction to actually be able to get someone of some authority to take the idea seriously then maybe it might be worth discussing. Until then it is just like so many of your posts, simply arguing just to argue.

I love this idea. I might suggest that you base the journal on an Excel platform or at least something that could be saved of as an Excel document. Since Excel is probably already on a lot of PCs at home or work and lends itself to mathmatical manipulation for any analysis work that you might want to incorporate or that any user might want to add in. Doc

First of all let me tell you that I'm not paid to do your research. If you are interested, do your own work. Next, let me tell you that I am not saying what reactions are correct and what are not. I'm just telling you what those reactions would logically be. As I said above, the perception would be that this is an attack on gun hunters. No they do not use all of what's available, but they know it is available to use if and when they want ....... until somebody (from the bowhunting community...lol) starts telling them they can't have it. Let's face it, I don't use all of the gun season, you probably don't either. But it's there to use whenever I need to schedule a few days here and there. I also remember the times before retirement when I had to squeeze my hunting in where I could. I guess you would take away that flexibility. These people wouldn't try to figure out if they are using what was being taken away. They would simply view it all as paying more and getting less ....... finally time to quit. Could you convince gun hunters to cash in more than half their season and force them to use a crossbow instead of their shotgun or rifle? I think that idea is just totally nuts and most likely to have the effect of aggravating hunters right out of the sport. It doesn't fit with any logic, or the personality of any of the gun hunters that I know or ever have met. I can't even imagine any gunhunter going for such nonsense and I've got to believe that you don't believe that idea either. Furthermore, who are you ever going to get to actually push this kind of thing through into law? I mean an idea has absolutely no value if there is no way to make it reality. Not only is the idea wacked, but the likelyhood of it ever becoming anything more than a pipe-dream is absolutely nil. When I hear that someone of some influence is backing such an idea, I'll start paying attention to it and I'll admit that it has some potential. Until then it is just an idea whose time will never come. Doc

I don't know about the "variety of weapons" point, but there must be some appeal to the things. I hate to keep repeating the same point, but more than half of the participants in Ohio's bowseason now choose to hunt with a crossbow. That does not mean that the same thing will happen here, but it does indicate that a lot of people over there think there's some way that crossbows have some advantages over compounds and other bows. No one should under-estimate the potential impacts that crossbows can have on bowseasons. I just think that the impacts are not going to be immediate, but will take a few years to have the full effect felt. Even in Ohio, it didn't all happen over-night. Doc

I find that aging the venison adequately makes bone removal a lot easier. They tend to slide out a lot easier and cutting them out really is not necessary. Saves a lot of effort. Doc

A few years back, I dragged out some old Bear razorheads (approx. 1965 vintage) and wiped out a 9 point buck with a complete pass-through and a super healthy blood trail. The bow was set at 55#. With a few exceptions, I think we worry way too much about which broadhead to use. Given adequate poundage, and a well tuned, straight flying arrow, there aren't a whole lot of selections that won't do the job. Doc

I have shot both and the only difference is what you have already discovered ....... Get the feathers wet and you can have a mess. A lot can have to do with the rest that you use and how well your bow is tuned. Feathers have a lot more forgiveness of slight interferences. Vanes do not like that sort of thing at all. Doc

I believe that such a change would be disasterous to hunter numbers. I am of the opinion that there are many hunters who are on the brink of quitting anyway, Such a slap-in-the-face as cranking license fees followed by hacking their season length and then given the insult of being told to make up the difference with a crossbow would most likely be the straw that breaks the camel's back. As I have written many times here, the signs are there that hunters are not as dedicated or enthusiastic as they were years ago. I see a lot of 1/2 day hunters or those that show up only for opening day. It won't take a lot to push them out. What other states may or may not have done decades ago means nothing about our situation today. I think you would look long and hard before finding one state that has slashed their hunting seasons in the fashion that you are suggesting and most likely you simply would not find any at all. And of those few if any that you actually find, it most likely will turn out that such a change was done when hunting was in a much stronger, traditionally sound condition than today.

Frankly, I don't even think I agree that the idea is any sort of improvement over the current structure, but perhaps after all this time, you should be at least forwarding your thoughts to the DEC, and maybe dropping into some gun club meetings, or checking with some NYSCC meetings or members, or planting the idea in some friends that are members of any of these kinds of organizations just to see what kinds of reactions you can get (always know the location of the nearest exit before bringing it up though). Maybe you can actually get someone who are members of some of these organizations to go along with the idea and try to put your thoughts into some kind of reality. Everytime I have one of these brain-farts, I send it in to the DEC. In fact not too long ago they were all over the place soliciting these kinds of suggestions and begging the hunters for their thoughts on improvement. I sent them a bookful of things that I have been talking about on these forums. You may not have anymore luck at affecting change than I have, but at least there is some satisfaction in knowing that you didn't just sit on an idea witholding it from those that have the power to make it happen. We cover a lot of ground here on this forum and it's always good to use other hunters as sounding boards for our thoughts. but until these ideas actually reach someone who is in the driver's seat, a lot of those thoughts will simply never become reality. Frankly, I'm not sure that what you are proposing is even a good idea or has any merit at all. Actually, I doubt it. But then I'm not the one that needs convincing. Doc

Oh come on ..... you aren't seriously going to pursue that crazy argument are you? If you want to see how long they have had their present season structure go ahead and look it up. I'm just trying to inject a tiny bit of reality here based on what everybody knows about the NYS hunter attitudes, and the DEC attitudes. Why you or anybody would think that the gunhunters would tolerate having their season slashed to th extent you are talking is beyond me. And to think you could placate them with a crossbow alternative is simply ludicrous. Why don't you try it out on some NYSCC meetings and see if you get out of there alive ....... lol. I'm sorry to be so blunt with my criticism of your idea, but you do have to keep some perspective that includes some element of reality. Doc

I would have no problem with that at all, and it makes a whole lot of sense. I wonder how many dead hunters are still receiving licenses, hunting and fishing booklets, and the other stuff that they mail out every year. Doc

If you believe that, I've got a bridge ........ Just think about what you just said, and try to imagine convincing even a tiny portion of the gun hunters to buy into that. And don't try to compare to Ohio. Those hunters grew up with that arrangement. Nobody came along and tried to whack on their gun seasons to the extent suggested here. Look, I come up with some pretty hair-brained management schemes myself, but there has to be some small amount of realism involved or it all amounts to nothing more than a fantasy. I believe that if you spend a couple minutes thinking about it, and then try to consider how you would implement this in a realistic manner, you will understand the kind of revolt you would have on your hands if you ever tried such a deal. A revolt not only among hunters but within the DEC as well. Doc

There must have been something really good there to eat for them to come back in. What were they feeding on ... could you tell? That might be a good spot to periodically check out in the future. Doc

So you think that you can toss a crossbow to a gunhunter and then tell him, "Here use this and by the way this is what you will be using instead of your gun when we knock a bunch of weeks off gun season". What? ..... you think these guys are nuts? If you want to see the hunting community really torn apart, just try proposing a stunt like that. Yeah, I can picture that ...... We just cranked the license fees through the roof and now we are going to tell the overwhelming majority of hunters that they can't use their firearm of choice for most of the season that they used to have. Or maybe this is a scheme to try to force gunhunters/crossbows into bowseason. More likely it is a scheme to simply drive hunters out of the sport. It would very effectively do that. First of all, I don't think you will ever find anyone of authority that will go along with that scheme. Certainly not the DEC. They are already concerned that they may not have the ability to control the herd with the diminishing number of hunters that they have got. There is no way that they are going to cripple their major deer-killing tool and punish the gun-hunters. I'm not even going to argue the merits of what you are proposing. I'm just curious as to what world you actually believe this could ever happen in. Let's get real! Doc