Doc

Easy there big guy ...... calm down. You have your opinion and I have mine. You just happen to be wrong is all ...... lol. By the way are you ever going to read the info on those links I supplied so you can finally sound a little bit like you know what you're talking about. Try learning a bit about the nature of hunting accidents and maybe it will start to come clear to you why a mandatory blaze orange law during the gun season will save lives and has anywhere the people had the sense to apply it. Maybe you will even discover for yourself why any sensible person might use their intelligence a bit and pick and chose which seasons it actually makes sense and where it doesn't. It's all right there if you want to take the time to educate yourself. That old saying about leading a horse to water really does hold true . Doc

Thanks! I'm off to check it all out.

Could you tell us the origin of that info, or someplace where I could access it? It sounds like the DEC has indeed spent some time analyzing the results of the AR test WMUs, like I have been asking for. I would like to start collecting that kind of info. Doc

I've got to tell you that I spend about as much time out there hunting and scouting and jawboning with other hunters as anyone I know, and it beats me how you have been able to canvass hunters in two WMUs, and perform deer surveys over that many square miles such that you can tell us the hunter attitudes and the deer herd conditions across that much area. It's an enviable feat, and I really must admire your ability to do what all of the DEC has not. Personally, I don't even try to speak for the hunters of even a small part of our one WMU and whenever I speak of deer conditions, I always make sure that everyone understands that I am only speaking of that acreage that I personally hunt which is not a significant amount of square miles within our WMU. There's no way that I would speak for the hunters or herd conditions of two WMUs and I'm surprised that you think you are able to. Maybe those two areas that you are talking about are a lot smaller than they look on the map . Doc

Yeah, and I guess we can satisfy ourselves with crap. But speaking of "free will", I still have the right to speak out and criticize that crap if I feel like it, and I sure wouldn't want anyone to think that some of that crazy nonsense is simply flying over my head without recognition or disapproval, or that I'm in love with the cartoon depiction of hunting that these fakes think they're getting away with. Doc

Yup! that's why I never took up golf.

Deer and turkeys eat the same stuff. Do you suppose that over the centuries they have developed an understanding of that fact so that turkey presence means food to them? That might make a turkey decoy more than just a calming feature. It may actually make a decoy an attractant. ...... Just guessing at all that of course. Doc

Is there anybody who has the actual credibility of training and actual data who is conducting any studies on these "test areas"? The anecdotal comments are fun to hear, but if you are trying to actually convince people that AR do work, it sure is great to have some official, scientifically derived data to show rather than individual "impressions". The point of my reply about the increasing size bucks in our non-AR area was to point out that there are many reasons for deer herd improvements and they may not all have to do with AR. What I would really like to see is some of the info from the DEC (or Cornell) that reaches conclusions and explanations that are derived in a scientific way rather than just simply unsubstantiated opinion. So the question is, is anyone actually using this test lab to actually learn something? Is the DEC taking the opportunity to pull data and analyze it, or is this opportunity being frittered away. By the way, I would like to also have the effect on hunter participation in those areas studied to see if there has been any residual loss of hunter population due to the restrictions. Is anyone aware of any studies being conducted along those lines in those trial AR WMUs? Better yet, does anyone have access to such info? Doc

She's found something to eat. Whether it's something naturally occurring or something that someone has purposely put on the ground, it is definitely not just a scrape. I would suggest that you might pay attention to that spot a bit because you may have a tresspasser setting up a hunting opportunity for himself. Otherwise, you may have a natural attraction that may be useful for your own hunting. Doc

I don't understand. Are you saying that the Muzzleloaders Association wanted a distance rule shortened for bow hunters, or they wanted it shortened to 250 feet for all weapons, or for muzzleloaders, or what? Reduced for bow hunting only. The NYSMLA proposed the regulation change. Why on earth is the muzzleloading association concerned about liberalizing a bowhunting restriction?

Doesn't it make you just a bit offended that these people think so little of hunters that they would have the arrogance to think that no one would notice or care how absolutely fake all that stuff is? What are they trying to say about our intelligence?

You didn't even get the point I was making, did you? It went right over your head. ...... No, I'm not going to get drawn off into irrelevant side discussions about helmets and seatbelts. I think I have been clear in my response, and I really can't waste time attempting to have a sensible discussion with someone who cannot (or will not) recognize the difference in magnitude between the need for B/O in a gun season and B/O in a bow season. : If you ever decide to read some of the data in those links and actually educate yourself on the facts of the subject, you will see that there is no data that would show the need for B/O in a bow season, but that the need in gun season is clear. Open your mind up for a change and actually read some of the data that I have spoon-fed to you rather than trying to deflect and sideline the discussion into random irrelevant directions. I will just leave you with this thought: you are welcome to defend the right for you to be stupid, and I will continue to support laws that might save your life inspite of yourself. While you are worrying about the great fashion dillema that such a law might cause you, hopefully NYS will recognize what so many other states have already implemented and actually look at the data that they themselves have collected (which is in those links that you obviously are ignoring), and someday pass a blaze orange law to protect some of these idiots from themselves and humanitarian issues aside, save the taxpayers the expense of taking care of the mess left behind by these un-thinking idiots. Doc

Yeah, that's kind of what I was saying. I have been seeing older bucks being taken in our area in recent years and we're not even close to an AR unit. There are many reasons why deer size would suddenly jump and in our case, AR is definitely NOT one of them. Doc

Yupper . That little metal clip (ultra nock) made a Ka-zing sound when I released the string . The string loop makes a very light pfffffffffttttt ! No comparison ! : Now that I have hearing aids , I can tell the difference between the ka-zing and a pffffffffftttt with no problem . There is no doubt in my mind that a pfffffffffttttt is far superior to a ka-zing. In fact I would rather have 4 pfffffffffttttts than one ka-zing. I think taking that thing off was an excellent move. In fact if I were to hear just one ka-zing, my ultra-nok would be off so quick it would make your head spin. And I really mean that! Doc

The fact is that very little happens in today's word that doesn't impact a whole lot of other people. One example comes to mind immediately. When someone is very stupid and does something that unnecessarily causes his death (perhaps your example of the motorcyclist that refuses to wear a helmet and then gets into an accident). First of all, if he is not killed, then we may have a vegetable on our hands in a hospital room that becomes a huge burden on his family until finally their finances are exhausted and then both he and his family become wards of the state and WE pay. If he croaks, his family is again usually devastated with the loss of the breadwinner, and again we may wind up paying the bill to keep them fed, clothed, educated, and supplied with cable TV. No matter what the situation, whether its helmets or blaze orange, there is a very high likelihood that we will be impacted, and even to a greater extent, spouses and children are also impacted. So yes, if some how magically everyone who decides to practice stupidity were truly the only ones to be effected, I might have a different attitude. Also, your comment about the jerk in camo who sneaks onto your land and gets blown away, is another very good example. I don't care who you are, just try to live with something like that. Yes that could be a huge effect on somebody else's life. I'm not a big fan of government worming their way into our private lives, but every day, the ripple effect of acts of stupidity affect more and more people other than the person who doesn't seem to know how to properly conduct their lives. It's a shame, but I do believe that if you had the data, you could put a price tag on stupidity that is payed by every taxpayer, and I don't think anyone would be real pleased with the bottom line tab. Doc

Well, precedent shows that this "all or nothing" argument doesn't hold water. Where in all the states that have helmet laws, is there even one that requires people to wear helmets in cars, trucks, tractors, etc.? Your line of reasoning would demand that in order to be consistant, helmets should be mandated on all motor vehicles. Of course that would be stupid and senseless and make about as much sense as demanding blaze orange during bow seasons. Yes, I hope members here are able to make judgements as to where some lines of reasoning make absolute sense and where they are simply being stretched as foolish extensions designed only to muddy the waters of the actual discussion. Anyone who equates the usefulness of blaze orange during gun season with it's use during bow season, is not really being serious about this discussion. With muzzle loader seasons there may be some logical comparison and room for discussion of a blaze orange law. But, first things first. As to the need for a blaze orange law, there were links posted earlier on this thread for those that are interested in the facts of the argument that show that without a question blaze orange saves lives in a whole bunch of states and has the potential to save more in states that have yet to see the wisdom of such a requirement. Those that didn't read it should now go back and do so. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00044112.htm http://www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/hunting/safety/docs/Hunting_Associated_Injuries_and_Wearing_Hunter_Orange_Clothing.pdf http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3MRuEfjx3l0J:www.dfw.state.or.us/resources/hunting/safety/hunter_orange.asp+Reasons+for+mandatory+blaze+orange+while+hunting&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us All of these articles definitely show why such a law should be adopted by this state and why there is no serious argument against that point. If there were some logical imposition or reason for not having such a law, I could understand the opposition. But there are no legitimate reasons and no sensible reason to oppose such a thing. Frankly, I don't get it. Is it some kind of rebellious fashion statement? The only thing I can imagine is that the opposition is coming from those that want to exercise their right to stupidity, or have some sort of desire to commit "suicide by hunter" : Doc

I have noticed that for every deer management, hunting, or behavior theory, there seems to always be at least one other theory somewhere that contradicts it. I have very little faith in any of these theories regardless of where they come from or what so-called credentials they come up with. All these things make good reading but usually wind up to be people trying to apply logic to things that are by nature illogical.

Actually, I am very happy there is a limit as to how close hunting activities can encroach on the privacy of residents. I think it helps avoid a whole lot of problems between hunters and people trying to carry on the normal business of living and being allowed the expectation of not having people wandering past their windows or touching off a shotgun next to their bedroom. From a safety standpoint, 500 feet is no where far enough, and if the law does not specify, it should state that shooting in the direction of a house or building is illegal. I'm not sure how the law is worded, but the direction of the shot is more crucial than the distance. If that's not part of the law, it should be. Doc

Ka-zing????? ;D

You're right! that guy had one thing on his mind and was not about to be distracted. It's just a good thing I was not standing where the doe had just gone or I would probably have hoof prints on my face today. Doc

There, That sounds like a good way to do it. I was trying to picture manhandling this big bag of jello that has no handles of gripping features. Sliding the thing out in quarters on a tarp sounds pretty reasonable to me. Doc

Thankfully, I don't have to make that choice since I am retired and can hunt whenever I want. Besides all this studying of moon phases and such puts me in mind of witchcraft and is entirely too complicated and contradictory for me to bother myself with. However, I will say that the one part of rut that I find to be the absolute most frustrating is that time when we begin to see deer running wildly through the woods like a pack of dogs are on their heels, with the does trying to keep one step ahead of a pushy buck. That is the time when trails are abandoned and entire home ranges are uprooted, and every bit of scouting and patterning goes right out the window. During that time, you would have just as good a chance of getting in bow range if you were standing in the middle of a parking lot as you do in the woods. ;D When all that crazy nonsense is going on, I spend a whole lot of time wishing I had stood over there, or maybe over there, or more likely, wish I had a rifle in my hands. There was one time during that crazy period when I actually got a buck that was chasing a doe to come real close. I did that because when the doe came barreling through, I repositioned myself to cover the ground that she had just run over. Sure enough, here came Mr. Goofy trotting along with his nose to the ground like a beagle. Only one problem ....... he was traveling just under a full run and wouldn't hold still. I can't make that kind of moving shot. So I made a little vocal noise (a bleat) to stop him for a shot. Nope, not on your life. So I whistled. He never raised his head or even slowed up. So I hollered at him. Nope, not interested. So I jumped out and waved my arms. I'm not sure how I ever would have gotten the shot off even if he had stopped, but I was getting desparate. Well, as it turned out, he never even slowed and all I could do was just watch him leave along the same direction as the doe did. So when I say that is the most frustrating time of the year, it is with good reason. Doc

I'm drawing a blank on your question. I guess I never heard of the kind of formula you are talking about. Usually, the broadhead weight that you choose, based on speed concerns with light heads or kinetic energy considerations for penetration when choosing a heavy head is compensated for by the spine of the shaft that you use. Maybe (probably), I am misunderstanding the question. Doc

Because hunting is actually a very safe activity, that is no reason to relax known hunting safety precautions. That's something we all learn in hunter safety training, and very good reasons. It's never good to develop the "It can never happen to me" attitude. To put a bit of a humorous but accurate spin on it all, even though the odds are a bit long for becoming a hunting accident victim, that saying that the NYS Lottery people developed applies equally to hunting accidents. You know the one that goes something like, "Hey, you never know!" Your odds of being a victim are pretty low, until you start willingly doing things that promote target mis-identification or make you harder to indentify a "no-shoot" situation for other hunters. Then, Hey, you never know. Doc

I expect to see some pretty impressive harvest pictures this year. No excuses of not having the nice bucks around ...... Ha-ha ;D