Doc

I don't know. 10,000 trappers across the entire state doesn't sound anywhere near what I would have expected as the number when I was a kid. Of course that was back in the 50's when I first started trapping. My gosh, my grandfather trapped, two of my brother-in-laws trapped, I trapped and at least three of my friends ran traplines and that was just in one little valley. Down at school there were several trappers that I knew. I would be surprised if today you would find any. I remember that within a 15 minute drive I could find 4 local fur buyers. Today there is only one that I know of in the county and that is an area auction. In fact, I don't know how many counties they actually handle. I might add that even inflation adjusted, the fur prices were not exactly huge back then either. It's true that there is no way of actually knowing just how many trappers there were back in the 50s for the reasons you mentioned, but I know it was a rural way of life, and trapping was the way kids used to buy school clothes and other things they wanted. Today's lifestyle is nothing like that anymore, and I've got to believe that trapper numbers have suffered for it in a huge way. Doc

Now there are some pretty heavy thoughts for the AR people to wrestle with. See, it's alright to hear from the other side once in a while ...... lol. Sure offers a lot to think about. Doc

And yet a buck can tell the state of estrus of a doe from the scent of the urine. Also a deer can identify specific individual deer just by sniffing tracks for scent and other left-behind scent identifiers. Kind of makes you wonder why they can't differentiate between human urine scent and that of more harmless woods critters. I think there's a lot more to this than we realize. Deer use this sense of smell just like we would use our eyes and ears. So why is it that we can whiz all over the woods and they don't bolt out of the area? The mystery is a bit more complex when you consider that I have seen deer feed to within a few feet of our door and never even flinch at the human odors coming from the house. Put those same scents 50 yards into the woods and the deer will avoid it like the plague and even spook out of the area. Another weird thing: Back when we had a dog, I regularly would see deer graze right over the area where the dog had relieved herself just an hour or so before and they never batted an eye. How could that be? I think there is some real complexity to how deer use scent and relate to it. There almost seems to be some kind of logic used when they come across scent. So when a deer smells our urine in the woods, does the fact that they don't react to it mean that they can't tell it from their own, or does it mean that they simply choose not to react to it. It's pretty hard to get into the mind of a silly goat .... lol. But as a hunter, I find the subject fascinating. Doc

I've got to ask ....... All those stories about snipers during the Revolutionary War that were supposedly so deadly at some gosh-awful distances with some very primitive muzzleloaders ....... Are those stories just a lot of nonsense, or are they true or is the truth somewhere in between. I was watching a program on the history channel one time a few years back and they made a big deal about the accuracy of a bunch of Green Mountain Boys sitting in trees and knocking off redcoats at some phenomenal distances. I wish I could remember the distances they were claiming, but the program was quite a while ago. I'm just curious as to whether some of that stuff is even possible, or were the authors of that program stretching the truth just a bit. How far would you expect that a sniper using old-timey muzzleloaders could really reliably shoot a British soldier? That kind of goes along with the stories of some of the pioneers "barking" squirrels, meaning shooting close enough to the squirrel on a limb or trunk of a tree to kill it with bark from the bullet impact but not destroying the meat with a direct hit. This was supposedly a common way to hunt squirrels. That sounds like some pretty tricky shooting with what had to be some very primitive muzzleloaders, but again one has to wonder if maybe it was just a lot of legend passed down and amplified a bit over time. Personally, I've never messed with the things so I don't really know. Maybe you guys that mess around with the capabilities of primitive versions of muzzleloaders have some educated opinion about how much actual truth is in some of those myths (or facts). Just how good were those guys? Just how good would it have been possible for them to be, given the real limitations of the weapons? Doc

It would be interesting to actually have one to mess around with. The question that comes to mind is, can the pressure of pulling that head backwards through the meat, act on the back end of each blade and overcome the spring and re-deploy the blades again. It looks like maybe it could. Then that would make it back into a barbed configuration. It didn't look like the spring force was really all that great. That's probably going a bit overboard and over-thinking the issue a bit.....lol. I doubt the DEC gets all that involved. Doc

Good video but I have to admit that the picture toward the end of the video where they were kind of showing it in black and white, that big white blob that was the blaze orange vest that she was wearing stuck out like a sore thumb even from what looked like quite a long distance. I'm not sure how a deer would interpret that big white blob. That may differ from deer to deer. However, she was dead on when she stressed the need to curtail movement. That's not always as easily done as it is to say, but moving things that don't blend into the background are easy for anybody (or anything) to pick up on quickly. Anyway, thanks for the video. It had some real interesting stuff in it. Doc

I just passed the two year mark back in February. As far as I know, my smoking never cost me a deer. .....That's as far as I know. I've got no way of knowing how many deer never came through because of a wayward drift of cigarette smoke. I do believe that cigarrete smoke is a lot stronger than human scent and probably hangs together a lot longer and farther than just the incidental human scent, but I have never seen any experts address that particular issue. In fact nodody really wants to talk much about the actual science of scent and how it all interplays with our environment and the critters we hunt. Anyway, I must say that cigarettes are one of the toughest addictions to get rid of. How I ever did it I don't know. In fact, I really can't say that I have dumped the addiction because even after more than 2 years, I still have occasions where I crave a cigarette. I know better than to give in, but it is truly amazing that after all this time I would still get that feeling like I should be lighting up. I had an uncle who hadn't smoked in 20 years tell me he still got the craving to light up. Man, that is one powerful addiction! Doc

I didnt say archery seasons, I said archery only areas. Most archery only areas exist in places where the discharge of firearms isnt allowed, so since a crossbow is not a firearm, you will be able to use them there. It may even be spelled out in the bill, when I get a chance Ill re-read it. Actually, I believe that conservation law that applies to firearms also applies to bows unless specifically excluded or differentiated with appropriate language. So it is possible that bowhunting only areas will still apply only to bows until somebody adds crossbows. It all depends on the language of the laws involving archery only areas. Now, whether that is merely accomplished by some verbal agreement or whether there are actual laws that need to have their language amended I really don't know. Again, it just may be something that has slipped through the cracks and not been thought of. I have to admit that I am not familiar with the laws regulating archery only areas. I've never hunted them, and probably never will, and so I have never read anything about fine points of hunting in those areas. That's why I asked the question. Actually, I'm not sure just how thoroughly the new law has been gone over and how much of what we may consider to be logical has even been thought of regarding the implementation of crossbows. So I just thought I would ask to see if anyone has run across some of those details and seen such things actually written down. Doc

I don't have any problems with field tips, but finding something that I can shoot broadheads into is quite a trick. There are some cheapo styrofoam targets that Walmart sells and generally I wind up buying a new one every year. But no matter what I have tried, broadheads will chop chunks out in no time at all. For field tip, I have had two butts (one inside and one outside) that have lasted for years. They are both about 3' high x 3' wide x 2' thick. They are made out of compressed corrugated cardboard. I got the idea from a professional indoor shooting range in Rochester years ago. I shoot the arrows into the corrugations and they will stop anything. I devised a clamping mechanism that screws pressure on the cardboard. Also, when things start getting shot out, I simply turn the whole thing around and shoot the other side. When that starts getting shot out, the sheets of cardbord can be moved around swapping unshot sheets for the shot out ones and then we start all over again. The beauty of it all is the ease with which I can pul the arrows out without a effort or arrow damage. It was some time in the late 80's when I first built them and finally they are getting to the point where I really need to find some more cardboard. Doc

I wonder how that number compares to back when I was a kid. It seems like almost every farm-kid had a trapline back then. We use to have choices of 5 or 6 fur buyers closeby then. Not anymore. I hope it's growing again. It's an activity that puts us as close to nature and it's critters as anything I can think of. If that was lost, it would be a big chunk of our heritage and culture gone and would be a real shame. Doc

The question of AR will be debated for years and never have a unanimous opinion. Personally I don't really buy into the idea, but for me it is not an issue of very high priority when compared to a whole lot of other more basic deer management problems that NY has. It's just not a huge issue that I can get all excited about. We don't even have a clue as to the real number of deer we have or the local deer densities. We have deer populations that seem to swing wildly from too few to too many on fairly regular cycles. It seems a bit premature to be worrying about how big the antlers are.....lol. But it does provide some interesting discussions. Doc

Something that I have not heard a whole lot of people address is the question of even though deer may not see blaze orange as the same color that we do, does the blaze orange still stand out as something weird in the woods to them? What I have noticed is that the blaze orange hunting clothing has almost a reflective quality. The effect is really noticeable in the fading light where there are times that blaze orange seems to have a much higher intensity than anything around it. So you have to wonder just what that bright flash of intensity really looks like to deer. I have seen reactions from deer that range from non-recognition to having them zero right in on me so, I don't know. None of this changes my requirement for wearing blaze orange, but I sure would like to know the real details on how deer react and interpret blaze orange. Doc

Hey ..... another familiar old name. Welcome aboard. Glad to see that you found us. Doc

That's why I was curious as to how they intend to handle that issue. I mean, for this year the season is only a few months away, and I would guess that nobody has even thought of the logistics of hunter safety training. Doc

Yes, I don't think that it has been any secret that I have no love for the idea of crossbows in bow season or any other weapon that doesn't belong. And if you don't happen to like my opinion, that's your problem. I have just as much right to represent the other side of the argument as you do whether you like it or not. Doc

So, are you saying that you expect the city areas that you hunt to be now open to crossbows during bow season? By the way, I heard that crossbow safety training will now be entered into the hunter safety courses as part of the requirement for hunting with crossbows. Do you suppose that stuff will be grandfathered in for existing licensed hunters or will there be a requirement to take additional training before you can use a crossbow for hunting? Has anybody heard how they are going to handle that part of it all? Any theories??? Doc

My wife and I don't really need anymore than 1 deer a year, so I have neighboring people that I generally try to get a deer for. Actually, I've been doing that for quite a few years now. They need the help so excess venison goes to them. However for those that don't have any local people that need that kind of help, the venison donation program is a great thing. Doc

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact. As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody. Doc you might have forgotten a few groups there Doc, the appeal would also be for people who like to shoot crossbows, (yea some of them might be rifle hunters god forbid), and older hunters who can no longer effectively use a vertical bow. and using the argument about having to sustain the rigors of hunting with a compound bow are pretty weak, if you arent well practiced with crossbows you will about as effective as a vertical bow hunter who also hasnt practiced. Yeah, I know ...... That's a good one ..... lol.

Well, this is the second time that you promised to end your crazy ranting and then back-peddaling. I hope this time you finally really mean what you are saying. Doc

Haha! I was thinking the same thing. The guy in the vid got good at gutting fast because he was used to getting out quick before the law arrived!! But seriously, why the rush? I like to take my time to try and do a good job. Not to mention enjoy the warmth on my cold hands! No hurry here. The first thing I do is to stand there for a few minutes thinking, " Oh damn, now look what I have gone and done". Eventually, I talk myself into diving into the disgusting muck and mire. It's not something that I can say that I have ever really WANTED to do......ha-ha. Doc

Hey....Good to hear from you again. Glad you made it across to the new forum. You realize that you are speaking heresy, and will now probably be descended upon by the flames of the AR people both here and in the readership of New York Outdoor News? That's alright. It's always nice to catch both sides of all the different issues, and I enjoy a bit of controversy every now and then....lol. Yeah, after posting that comment, I kind of figured it out that there likely was an article size limit. That's too bad. You took on a huge topic that could extend into volumes of info. I don't suppose that the research articles are published on the net somewhere. I would be interested in reading a little more detail on those studies. You don't very often get to read anything on that side of the issue. Doc

They probably would say that they are available for NYS hunters who hunt out of state where such products are legal. Doc

Yes, I fully expect that too, and that is why I put the word "currently" in italics on my other reply. I have the same opinion that this is the foot-in-the-door law. I suspect that is why the NYB has always taken such a "no compromise" position on the issue. So many times innocent little moves wind up setting precedents that are used to go way beyond anything that anyone expected or intended. That's the same as the philosophy of the NRA. So many times I wonder, now what harm could that law do. But they have always understood that principle of "give an inch and they want a mile", and the idea of precedents and how they can be twisted to serve purposes other than what is obvious. Doc

I think you are probably right. As I understand it, they are currently not allowed in the primary bow season. If it stays that way, there won't be much of an impact. As far as them being something that catches on, I think that without the linkage to the early bow season, there is not much about them that is very attractive for hunters. The only real appeal would be for gun hunters who would like an earlier crack at the deer herd without the rigors of becoming proficient with a bow. That is the only real appeal that I can see that they would have for anybody. Doc