Doc

Ok, I have a related question. Do all cell towers service all service providers? In other words if a tower was put up by Verizon, can an AT&T customer utilize that tower? Or another way of asking the same question would be, "If I can see a cell tower over on the next hill, am I guaranteed to get a signal regardless of what service I use?" I have heard both stories, one saying that cell towers are used for any service provider and one saying that cell towers are vendor specific. I thought maybe someone here might know the answer. Doc

So are you now saying that all the blather about how bowhunters are whiners and how they think they own the woods and how they should learn to share the woods with the muzzleloaders like the enlightened ones in the northern zone was not really something you meant? I kind of took that as meaning that you were in favor of muzzleloading seasons being jammed into the southern zone bow seasons. That was all just B.S. that you just said for effect? OK, I can accept that. I thought it was rather stupid stuff to be saying in the first place and I can certainly see why you would be backing away from it all now. I've got to admit that one does need a scorecard to keep up with just what you do believe. Doc

What do you mean? Did you tan the hides before selling them? Doc

So why did you guys decide to get into muzzle loaders? Doc

Okay ..... the springloaded feature may save the legality of them. Apparently unless they are moving forward through something, they collapse back down by themselves. Note that in the video, everytime she backed off the pressure on the tip, the blades retracted. That means that as soon as the come to rest, the blades collapse. In the collapsed position, the profile is not in the legally defined "barbed" configuration. That all does bring up some interesting questions about how well those blades might deploy. It is only the force on that little tip that forces them into an open position and yet you have all that force on the much wider blades themselves that is trying to keep them closed. I'm sure it must work or they wouldn't have invested all that money to make and market them, but it's not real obvious that they would be all that reliable. Again, watching videos and reading words does not beat having the things in your hands to actually mess around with. It sure is an interesting concept. Doc

I did read about a deer eating a fish once. You know how people talk about goats eating anything. Well, it's just another kind of goat ..... lol. Doc

I do have coverage and do carry my phone. But it stays off, and will unless I have an emergency where I need help. I don't really want that stuff brought into my hunting. I hate phones anyway, and really don't feel the need to be wired up and in contact all the time. I have to laugh everytime I see these people who can't even drive down the road without having that thing stuck in their ear. Or how about the people who think that everybody in a restaurant needs to listen to their conversations....lol. At any rate, for me hunting time is not socializing time or game time or surfing time so the thing stays turned off. Doc

No twists ....... no spin ....... I am only responding to your own statements as you post them. Doc

Really? I usually take my draw when the deer's head is behind a tree or its obstructed in some other way, so when Im ready to shoot, the deer never saw my draw or when I raised the bow. A little detail you needn't concern yourself with if you have a crossbow .... right? Youre nuts if you think Id sit there with a heavy crossbow shouldered before the deer was in range. That's why they sell that nifty bipod that mounts under your stock. Or maybe a nice kneeling shot with your elbow braced on your knee while you wait for the deer to approach shooting range. Heck with the right conditions, you might even want to use a prone position. If your in a ground blind, you can use the old trick that I do when gun hunting. Provide a horizontal shooting rest (a log or a downed tree) so you can actually bench rest the crossbow. Yeah, it seems like you have a whole lot of options. The same amount of motion is required to pull the trigger on a bow or crossbow. When that's all you have to worry about is squeezing the trigger, you're absolutely right. You have obviously never shot a crossbow in your life if you think you can use a scope to sight it in properly for 0 to 45 yards without adjusting your aim point. Its pretty much like shooting a bow with one pin, you move it up or down depending on range. So, all those scopes that I see on just about every crossbow in the catalogs are just for show. Nobody really buys them because they aren't any better than a bow with one pin. BTW, I have a light on my bow site, it works plenty well in low light. I think Chevy might have been talking about the light-gathering effect of a scope on the whole image and not just on your sight pin. I don't know. That is a quality of some of the more expensive scopes. I know on my shotgun scope, I am always amazed at the kind of detail I can see through my scope in some rather ridiculously low-light conditions that I could never see without the scope.

There you go forgetting about ground blinds and treestands - whose purpose is to hide movement from the deer. I have 17 stands set up - not one has a rail on it only 2 have a provision for one. I didn't put them on because they basically get in the way more then help. And I could not imagine trying to manuver a crossBOW around on one steathily and have more then a very limited range of shot possibilities. Ha-ha .... to listen to all the complaining about how clumsy heavy and awkward crossbows are, and how they aren't one bit better to use than real bows, I have to wonder why you are worrying about cramming them into bow seasons or any other seasons for that matter. To hear you guys tell it, they're only one step better than a club....lol.

Bubba- Let me remind you who it was that turned this thread toward the muzzleloader. See if you recognize this quote: "seems to me NYB is against anything that infringes upon their methods. They fought an early muzzleloading season in the southern tier because they own the woods at that time. Funny part here in the nrthern zone bow hunters and muzzleloaders can hunt at the same time and it works fine. Off topic I understand but it just seems there has to be some compromise here and none is being shown from one side on any changes." So just to keep the record straight it was you who began the discussion of cramming muzzleloaders into bow season. And if you expect me to just let those attacks on bowhunters go by without response, you are wrong. And let's be honest ..... you really were trying to provoke a response weren't you? ..... lol. Now, as far as your explanation of muzzleloading season, it sounds like you are admitting that muzzleloaders as currently defined by NYS really have no justification for special seasons outside of the regular gun season. I agree. If they currently defined muzzleloaders as the type of equipment you are talking about, i.e. primitive rifles using only patched round balls only no scopes that would be a different story. But that is not a limitation that NYS puts on muzzleloaders, is it? As far as the difference between a compound bow and a crossbow, I will once again repeat a reply that I posted earlier in this thread: "So what really are the differences in shooting recurves and longbows versus the compound? Well, as a matter of fact there is still the entire max draw weight that has to be encountered at some point through the draw cycle even with a compound. Also, apart from the hold-weight differences, the act of properly shooting both a recurve and a compound are exactly the same. All elements and disciplines of form are identical including the stance, draw, consistancy of anchor, consistancy of hand position, consistancy of bow arm bracing and muscle alignment, consistancy of sighting, back tension, release, follow through. Further, failure to abide by these disciplines results in the same penalties in terms of target results. So, all of these elements are required to shoot a compound, a recurve and a longbow and that applies whether you are talking sight shooting or instinctive. Now, tell me which of these archery related shooting disciplines apply to a crossbow?" Of course aside from those obvious real archery shooting disciplines and procedures, there are also some other physical differences that I didn't bother to mention such as the bipod commonly mounted on the end of the stock and the scope that most often is a part of the crossbow paraphenalia and other common accessories that are difficult, impossible or impractical to put on a compound bow. And I will not even get into the potential differences of the future. Just like the radical changes that we saw in real bows, and the radical changes you have noted in muzzleloader technology, we know that crossbow technology has just begun its development, and as R&D money is supplied by their expansion, they will start to utilize this new platform to add new features that are currently only hinted at. It seems strange that such obvious differences have to be pointed out to another archer. But at any rate, you asked and I have answered .....again. Doc

That is a great catch for a 50 trap line. Any idea as to what that all converted to in money? What size traps do you use for coyotes? The last time I ran a line, coyotes weren't even around here.I still have a pile of Victor coil spring #2 traps and a lot of Conibear traps for muskrats (#110, I believe) and another pile of #1 and 1-1/2 legholds. Who knows, I may set out a line some day. I would have to get my trapper certification though. Doc

A semi-interesting article on AR showed up in the latest issue of New York Outdoor News. The article was written by Oak Duke. Unfortunately I thought it was a bit short on details and references, but maybe the more interesting results of the article will be the future letters from the readers regarding this article ..... lol. I do wish he had provided some access info to the studies he referred to. It was basically an anti-AR article and some of you might find it interesting. Doc

I would start by going to a gun store and buying the Hornady reloading manual. The first part of the book shows a lot of "how to" information and also gets into some of the details of what to do and why. However, even with this book and any others that I can think of, there is still no substitute for having someone right there, on site, to show you how. Reloading ammo requires a high level of precision and know-how or there is a certain level of danger involved in incorrectly loaded ammo. I guess that's pretty obvious, but no harm in stating the obvious when safety is involved. For that reason, I highly recommend that if at all possible, you find someone who knows what they are doing and is willing to spend a bit of time with you helping with the equipment buying decisions and the proper use of that equipment. I think that is the best and most important advice I can give. I don't want to scare you about reloading. It is extremely safe and not all that complicated if you have the proper understanding of the process and equipment. Doc

My first impression is that there is an awful lot of "non-cutting" frontal surface that must be shoved through the meat. I don't know, but a lot of that looks like stuff that would inhibit penetration. That's just a guess of course. They do look like a pretty sturdy broadhead. The in-flight size of the head is still 1", which I would guess gives back a lot of the advantage that people are looking for in collapsible mechanical broadheads. All of that mechanism only adds 1/2" to the cutting diameter. More info: http://www.newarchery.com/products/1-1/broadheads/bloodrunner.html As far as whether or not the deployed blades act like a barb, that of course depends on whether the blades collapse back down when pulled backward through meat. I guess that is the real test at least I think that was the intent, that an arrow in a non-vital spot should have the ability to come back out without hooking. I'm not sure that head actually does. It kind of looks like it might not. I can't see how a force on the back of the blades in a line with the axis of the arrow would make those blades go down. Can't really tell a lot from a picture though. Doc

I guess that means that you have no answer for my question about why muzzleloaders require a separate season from the rest of the firearms users. That's ok, I didn't really think you could come up with one. Doc

You may hunt with a "flintlock with patched round balls and open sites", but that isn't the way the muzzleloader seasons are defined in NYS is it? So what is the justification for having a season for scoped, in-line, muzzleloaders that is separate and apart from shotguns and rifles? I am still curious about the answer to that question. Perhaps instead of taking an unhealthy and I must say, weird interest in how relaxed my sphincter is, maybe you could try to actually answer that question some time. As far as what kind of bowhunting instructor you may or may not be, I will bite my tongue and withold my assumptions on that as I try to imagine what kind of bowhunter would ever champion stirring firearms into bow seasons. I won't mention anything about my assumption that most bowhunters understand the value of trying to pattern and set-up on relatively undisturbed deer....lol. At any rate, your comments about the whining bowhunters, and how we think we own the woods kind of tells the story on where your biases lie. Doc

So how many trappers do we actually have here. I trapped for a lot of years and eventually gave it up. I am curious how many people still run a trapline. It used to be a big deal in rural communities and a lot of us boys used to trap just to buy school clothes and get a few items that we wanted. In recent years, I don't even hear anything about traplines in casual conversation. I kind of got the impression that it is an activity that has all but disappeared. It's a real shame because there is no other activity that I can think of that teaches more about self-reliance, woodslore, and the habits of all the wild critters around us. So, is there anyone here that still runs a trapline? Doc

Ha-ha ..... good one! Doc

Yes, I understood your point the first time. You simply want to do away with all special seasons and turn the whole archery time slot into a free-for-all where anyone can pick up anything and use it. Let's face it, that's what it all boils down to.....right? You don't understand why archery requires a special season, unique and separate from firearms. Frankly, I don't happen to agree with that. You obviously don't have a clue what the hunter densities are like down here or you wouldn't even entertain such a foolish idea for even a second. Or perhaps you are an archer in name only and really don't understand the conditions required to actually harvest a deer with a bow. I do not want to bowhunt under the carnival atmosphere that apparently you want to. I don't want to feel like I must wear blaze orange just to bowhunt safely, and I don't want to find myself trying to bowhunt in the middle of a deer drive, and I would like to at least have a chance to utilize somewhat uninterrupted deer patterns in order to get within the range demanded by archery equipment without gunners driving the deer into nocturnal patterns. Those are the reasons the original archery season was divorced from gun seasons, and they are all still darn good reasons. Those reasons involve safety and practicality. And yet some of the muzzleloader people want to lay claim to that part of the season too. Talk about selfish. My gosh even the rifle and shotgun hunters aren't that darn piggish. And speaking of rifle and shotgun hunters, what feature is it about a muzzleloader that makes you think that you should be treated any different from them. Other than the single shot feature, (which is shared with a lot of the shotguns and rifles), the muzzleloader is equal to or better than many of the shotguns and rifles that are relegated to the regular deer seasons. So if you have this hatred for bowhunters because they demand truly justifiable separate seasons and are trying to legitimately exclude firearms, what must you be thinking about your own motives and how do you justify wanting to have special priviledges with your muzzleloader over your fellow gun hunters when you really don't have any legitimate reasons for doing so. You seem to be quite willing to leave your other gun hunters behind relegated to just the regular big game season. Maybe when you speak of "Either we are together or we arent", you ought to take a look in the mirror. Doc

I don't think anyone is arguing with that. Seeing as to how the bill is reportedly sitting on Patterson's desk, I don't think anyone is doubting that it is practically law. And certainly the money-maker comment has been proven more than once. In case you lost your place, my comments were aimed at your reply where you seem to be longing for bowhunters to step aside and hand over their season to the muzzleloaders. It seems that everybody is sizing up the existing bow season with a jealous eye and trying to figure how to shoe-horn their way in without having to go through all that tedious nonsense of actually learning archery. A lot of people have begun to view the bowhunting season as an easy mark and ready for a hostile take-over ..... lol. Doc

Just thought I would bring this question back to the top in case somebody (maybe a new member) had heard something since this thread was last commented on. I'm still curious. Doc

I just started bowling .......... I have found out that I have no ability at that whatever......lol. But it's still kind of fun and it gets me out of this stinking heat. I also do some landscape painting, a bit of stone polishing, hiking (nearly daily), fishing, camping, target shooting (bow and rifle), reloading (winter) and a whole bunch of yard and garden work. Doc

But it is an unhappy but true observation isn't it?

Lol ...... That is a little above and beyond the call of duty. Besides, that sounds like it would have the potential of turning the hunter into bait ......... Probably not a great idea. Doc