Doc

Let me try to clear it up for you. Bow season was initially created to give a special season to those whose primary purpose was to limit the hunter's weapon and make a time of the year when a hunter could impose a great equipment handicap on themselves in their deer hunting. And almost since it's inception everyone has been determined to remove the very purpose the season was established in the first place. Now it is getting quite plain that bowhunters want to eliminate the very purpose of the season. As success rates continue to climb and technology is continually added to the archer's "special season", the gun hunters are starting to ask why there needs to be a "special" season reserved for bows when the original weapon that actually needed the special season is being drowned out by whatever technological advancement that anyone can dream up and stuff in there. And you know what? I am beginning to agree with them. The further we go with this war on "equipment challenge" in the bow season, the less that a special season can be justified. That notion is beginning to catch on, big-time and here we are feeding the demise of our own gains and specialness of bow hunting by further polluting the season. It's only a matter of time before our clever end-runs on the gun hunters becomes completely exposed and big adjustments take place. Now if you think that that will not affect bowhunters that actually limit their bowhunting to bows, I think you are mistaken.

That's a great point and I agree, but of course it has nothing to do with this topic. Your point about compound bows may be a bit premature. Actually the old-timers that argued against compounds were absolutely correct. They predicted that the compound would be the precedent and platform for changes that would completely bury the nature and purposes of bow seasons, and they were right. The compound was the first major move of those that wanted to ditch the idea of challenge from bow hunting. The compound became the precedent that the crossbow was based off of. And anyone who has listened to the arguments cannot deny that. The crossbow will be the precedent for muzzleloaders, and the muzzleloaders will be the precedent for rifles. And don't say it won't happen because it already is happening with muzzleloaders co-existing with bows and strong threats by the DEC that they are pushing for even more forced intrusions of muzzleloaders in the bow seasons. And when the DEC decided that bow season was a great place to slap in the youth rifle season for deer they did so with the intent of showing that rifles and bows can safely coexist (yet another precedent set). No the compound did not trash the bowseason all by itself, but it did provide the very next step in the evolution of eliminating the "special" status of bow hunting. When you look at the bigger picture, it gets very clear what is going on. The direction that bow seasons are going is very clear to anyone who really cares.

I think we all feel that way, but the question is, "Why"? What purpose does it all serve? Why do we feel compelled? What is the motivation that drives us to do something that, on the surface, seems to defy all logic?

12 gauge Ithaca Deerslayer.

Just leave the damned seasons alone! Its all fine the way it is. I know everyone thinks they have the absolutely fool proof pet system of seasons that are guaranteed to fill the woods with record book deer behind every tree, but believe me....... You don't.

Actually, you are failing to recognize a minority of the community desperately trying to maintain a bow season that is for bows. If there is any dick-swinging going on, I'm afraid that is some kind of vulgar exhibitionism on your part that those trying to stop the season takeover are not really a part of.

You know, we hunters may be the only ones who really can "get way from it all". I know humans are social animals and tend to travel in packs, but I do like the fact that I still can get the hell away from everybody for short lengths of time. It does form a brief period of alternative life without the stresses and constant bombardment of human interface.

Has anyone thought of different strategies for making the pictures more artistically pleasing without having the stinking gory guts and carcasses featured so predominately. They are great for drawing in predators and carrion eaters, but it sure would be nice to get just the critter without all the nasties in the picture too. I'm thinking of putting the cameras (at least one of them) on the trails leading in to the bone-yard. What do you think?

Actually it was all those things that I was looking for. I know that for most of us, it is the satisfaction of something buried deep inside ourselves. Something that we may not even fully understand ourselves. It is taking our natural place in the wild and enjoying the nature that we are a part of and is a part of us. The act of hunting is something based on some overwhelming and powerful natural element in our make-up as human beings. It is the predatory ancient building blocks of heritage and culture and our genetic make-up from our ancestors. There is a certain honesty in those of us who do not run from feeding ourselves in the way man was intended to. We do what we do because it is an honest expression of our role as predators doing what we were designed to do.

So there you are, sitting in the woods, shivering from the cold, Maybe rain slowly soaking through your clothes or snot dripping from your frozen nose, Playing all kinds of mind-games trying to ward off the creeping boredom, and having spent all kinds of money and time on expensive gear, just so you can kill something. What makes you do it? What's the addictive motivation for this illogical behavior? Why do you hunt?

Actually, a lot of my real scouting comes from other activities. Hiking, small-game hunting, outdoor photography, etc. But I try not to get too excited about what I see going on right now. Yes deer sign in the dead of winter is interesting, but I don't base a whole lot of my hunting on what I see this time of year.

Well, with all the mucking around changing seasons, and all the nonsense that I read here on how seasons should be shorter, longer, moved here, moved there, I just think that people are thrashing about looking for solutions in all the wrong places. In most cases, as has already been noted, they are looking for solutions to things that aren't really even problems. Nothing is accomplished with the running around in circles and shouting, "Let's just do something ...... anything!" approach to game management. Leave the damn seasons alone!

Looking at the brush in the pictures, you might want to pick up one of these to open up the field:

Is this another one of those "everybody gets a trophy" arguments? Or maybe this is an argument in favor of abolishing any special bow seasons to satisfy the weak and infirm. How about those with ailments that won't allow them to cock their crossbows? Should we allow guns in to satisfy that level of incapacity? For those that can't, or more likely refuse, to find the time or specifically don't want to be bothered with practicing and becoming proficient ....... What accommodations are we going to offer those in gun season that don't want to take the time to master their weapon? Come-on, some of these arguments are really getting ridiculous. Look just tell it like it is. The bowhunters have worked hard to establish a nice time of year to hunt and you want to shoe-horn your way into that season by hook or by crook without undergoing all the disciplines that go along with it. You really want to shove your way into the bow season without having to put up with all the reasons that a special season was set aside for bows in the first place. I suspect that if you all had your way, you would really like to drag your rifles into bow season, wouldn't you? Open the bow season to all weapons. That would satisfy all your concerns, and that is where you all are trying to go with all this crossbow nonsense. And in fact that is where we here in NYS have already made great strides toward going with it all.

I see winter scouting to be valuable as an activity of healthy exercise. It does give you an idea as to how the tactics that deer used to elude you this past gun season. It also gives you some idea of how the herd fared even though some of the deer sign you are seeing may not be resident deer that you will find next fall. But anyway, I am really not sold on trying to extend these observations into other times of the hunting year when climate and food sources and rut and the effects of gun hunting pressure are completely different.

Ha-ha-ha.... Usually trapping is not about picking on what animals we don't like for whatever reasons. For most trappers, it is all about the challenge and the money and the intimate involvement in nature.

Leave the damn seasons alone! People aren't using the time they have available now. Nothing significant is going to be accomplished by lengthening or shortening any of them. Use the DMP system for managing the herd.

The only reason that bow season has the advantages in seasons, regs and bag limits that it does is because NYB and their predecessor convinced everyone that the difficulty and the "handicap" of using a bow for harvest was such that additional easing on season lengths and regulations warranted it. The harvest numbers bear out the validity of those assumptions. BUT.... as success rates continue to climb, there are many today that are starting to question if those benefits afforded to bow hunters are really warranted. I don't think you have to go to far to find attitudes like Stubby's that are fueling a growing division and battle between gun hunters and bow hunters over these benefits that the bowhunting organizations worked very hard to get. I suspect the addition of crossbows and whatever chain of technical advances that will now come from that addition will likely cause even deeper divisions in the hunting community than we already have. There likely will come a day when these divisions will yield changes to bow seasons and regulations that will not be real welcomed by the bowhunting community. Also, there seems to be a growing DEC willingness (eagerness) to slide firearms into bow seasons. To a certain extent, it has already happened actually. Those intrusions are generally opened up by creeping precedents. Back when compounds were first legalized, some very wise bowhunters argued that compounds would present the precedent to allow other weapons into bow season. And who can deny that that is exactly what happened when the crossbow inclusion argument came along. And even today, that very same path of creeping bowhunting evolution is being overlooked with the inclusion of yet another precedent (crossbows). Every change fosters future changes. It's just the way of things. Now couple that with the DEC's desire to implant muzzleloaders and other firearms into time slots that we worked very hard to secure exclusively for archery, and I think it starts to show the pattern of the future. It really is quite obvious to those who are willing to look at it.

Merry Christmas to all of you as the day draws nearer, and thanks Growie for starting this great thread.

All this talk about drunken hunting reminds me of a few years back when I encountered a guy that was hunting well within the 500' limit of our house. I went over to talk with him about this and almost fell over from the booze stink. The guy was really having a hard time staying upright. You know, the waving back and forth, and the sudden jerking motion to stay upright. The guy really looked like he was going to fall over any minute. At the time I didn't know about the illegality of hunting drunk, or I would have called somebody to come get this guy. Actually he was so bad that I was concerned for his ability to even get safely back to his car. Fortunately his son-in-law came over while I was trying to figure out what to do with this guy. His son-in-law was sober and in control of himself, and helped this guy on his way back to the car. Before they left, I suggested that the son-in-law take the gun away from him and unload the thing before somebody got hurt. He did take the gun and unloaded it, and everything was back under control. This guy was so hammered that I doubt he really could have differentiated between a hunter and a deer. That was a pretty scary thing, and it makes me wonder how many others like this guy are out there. I know that over the years I have picked up and carried out enough beer cans and bottles in the woods to show that this guy wasn't the only one. I kind of wonder how many of these so-called "accidents" are a direct result of booze.

Look, a long time ago you lost your credibility here, and I sincerely doubt there is any reason to believe anything you say about the imaginary conversations you are having with your imaginary cops.

I haven't seen any ice that I would walk on yet ...... even our pond. Where are you guys doing any ice fishing? It's got to be somewhere up in the Adirondacks right?

What an enlightening scene this post election time has been in terms of exposing so much about the elitism and the self-serving personalities of the left. All of this snobbery and self-delusion of the pinko portion of our society is out of the closet and daily being paraded before everyone. The Obamas and their supporters are exposing themselves in public every time they open their mouths. Their apologists and supporters are showing their total close-minded intolerance and displaying the fact that their politics are more important to them than the welfare of the nation. Their true hearts are exposed to us as they openly display the fact that they want Trump destroyed regardless of the effect it may have on our country. It is now very obvious what kind of people have been running the country for the last 8 years, and it is positively disgusting.

So, let me ask you all a question. How confident are you that any sign of activity that you see right now will ever be useful next year? I know that scrapes and rubs can be repetitive from one year to the next for quite a few consecutive years, but tracks right after gun season may be from deer that aren't even from that area. Also, travel patterns may be different right now because of the rut beginning to trail off. Also, after antler-drop, the bucks start concentrating on energy replenishment, using different food sources than most of the season has produced and with rut playing less and less of a part in their movement motivations. I think scouting now can be useful, but with the understanding that anything you see now has to be considered with the time of year in mind. I think it is a good idea of asking the question of "Why are you seeing what you are seeing" and perhaps writing that down along with your observations. I'm also thinking that if you are planning on using info from this time of year for your hunting in bow season next October ...... I wouldn't. What do you all think?