beachpeaz

Like I said, I have been completely baffled. I did not hit anything between myself and the deer. 100% clear shot. I watched the arrow hit the deer. It could have been JUST slightly back further (obviously), but it was not low or high. It was center cut. It had to hit just a bit more forward than what it appeared and slammed where the leg bone joins the shoulder scapula. There is no other explanation. There was about 1" worth of fatty tissue on the arrow so it maybe got 2 - 2" of total penetration on that deer. I'm shoot a Bear Anarchy (around 340 fps) and the 1 3/4" razor tip reapers and the deer was shot at only 30 yards. That is a #$%# ton of kinetic energy piling into that deer. Blows my mind. It's hunting! What else can you say. I'm just trying to come up with some ideas to make sure I don't repeat that again in the future.

Thanks for the input for those who commented about my situation. The thread obviously turned to other things as well, which is fine. I have relived that shot over and over again and am so baffled. I went back over to the spot this past weekend and walked around for another 2 hours. Not a drop of blood, hair....or obviously a deer. They are tough and resilient creatures, so I am sure that he survived and will just be a bigger target next year. That may have been a fluke and a "perfect storm" situation on the shot, but I'm not taking any chances. I'm taking my bow into the shop to get tuned (which I do at the beginning of every season), getting new arrows (considering heavier arrows) and will look into fixed broadheads. Frustrating!

I need some expert opinion (not wild guesses) to help me get over this: I hunted hard this bow season. Finally pulled the trigger on a mid-130's mature 8 yesterday afternoon. The deer had no clue I was there, so I had all the time in the world. 30 yards on the button. Perfect broadside when I let the arrow fly. Completely steady shot. I watched the arrow fly and it APPEARED to be a good shot. I was 100% confident in the shot and that he was dead. I wait about 20 minutes and go to the point of impact to find my arrow (pictured) with zero blood on it, the insert broken at 30 degree angle and the broad head broken off. Not a drop of blood. I watched the arrow hit the deer. I did not hit anything between myself and him. I am BAFFLED and disgusted. All that work for nothing. A friend of mine said he had a similar experience and why he stopped shooting Grim Reapers. He said that if they hit anything solid, there is a tendency for one blade to open first causing the arrow to turn and then all the energy of that arrow to not move forward and penetrate but rather twist and break (exactly as you see in the pic). I've never had an issue. Ever. Anyone have any similar experiences or insight? No blood! How can an arrow with that much kinetic energy not penetrate past the broad head. Even if it hit the front sholder blade? I'm lost on this one.

Thank you gentleman. I was able to view both. Much appreciated. It at least gives me a comparative value to something I find online.

Does anyone have a hunting lease contract that they would be willing to share. I have a potential property I am working with a farmer on and would like to put something in writing with him. Instead of randomly searching the internet for a template that may or may not work, was hoping someone on here has a blank version they would be willing to share. Thanks.

You cannot fool a deer's nose. These hunting shows that proliferate these contraptions are doing so for advertising dollars and show support. Period. The fact that a deer was "dead down wind" and didn't smell the hunter probably had everything to do with where the scent was going due to thermals and wind patterns. Both of which a majority of hunters have no clue to when they climb in their stand. I will keep my money, hunt smart and only hunt certain winds in certain stand sets.

I think you over-read what my point was. From a hunters perspective, they are looking for bucks to be on their feet chasing does. They chase does for the purpose of sex. They may not accomplish the act of actual penetration with exception of a small estrus window, but they sure as hell will try for more than just that 1 week period. When I refer to "sex," i am referring to that entire window that they will give chase / follow, not just the 5 minute snuggle time.

I believe too many people confuse "peak breeding" and deer having sex. The reality is, deer are animals just like us. They will sex with does for 2 - 3 months. I've seen bucks chasing does from early October all the way even into January. When they actually impregnate a doe is based on her estrus cycle and THAT is what many try and predict. When a deer will actually be impregnated. The bottom line, be in a tree stand during hunting season. And yeah, I'm not in Charlie's camp. I am sure there is logic and science behind what he reports, but keep in mind that most of his observation is based on farmed deer!

I bought my son a nice Air Rifle for his birthday. It shoots at 1,300 fps. I've taken out 2 rabbits that were visiting my garden daily. 2 head shots, complete pass through, instant death.

2,800 responses out of 550,000 is a significant statistical group? Why don't you regurgitate the DEC's BS a bit more. Did Jeremy whisper that in your ear himself? That is .51%. There isn't a survey on earth that .51% would be an acceptable sample size. That is 1 person per 200. If you used that philosophy to run anything else you would be a socialist. Who cares about the populous of 199, lets let one ahole with an opinion vote for all of us. But hey, Jeremy said it was ok, so it must be. Baaaa said the sheep. And how ignorant can you be regarding the view of the survey. EVERY question could be answered positively or negatively and yet it was meant to contribute negative views of the DEC? Dude, could you possibly throw any more illogical responses around this forum. You are on a roll!

You guys a deplorable. I rarely get involved in pissing contests on this forum, but to listen to a bunch of you who have done NOTHING other than criticize someone for making an effort to gather opinions is ridiculous. REGARDLESS if gjs survey accomplished his target, at least he took at shot at trying to gather opinions that the DEC didn't bother with. The DEC gathered 2,800 opinions out of 550,000 hunters and used that as a representative of all of us. He collected 750 opinions with little more than a couple bucks and this useless forum. Goes to show, if nothing else, how little our DEC tries to capture the essence of our hunting community. You all have 2 choices: Do your own survey however the heck you want or shut the $%# up. Sitting in your chair criticizing the questions, the content, the results, the person who did it, while doing NOTHING to contribute to our hunting community says more about who you are than the person who at least tried.

Unless you are on one of these hunting shows that portray unrealistic hunting expectations, ya know, the ones where a 180" deer walks out in broad daylight, completely uncaring that the hunter and cameraman are talking and moving and gives the hunter 5 minutes to range find him and wait for an ideal distance.......then you don't need one. Don't get me wrong, you have to know distances, but actually range-finding a mature deer prior to shooting it is extremely difficult. I, like other people have made comment, range find all the objects around me and are prepared for any shot before the deer actually arrives. There is no chance I am going to risk additional time and movement range-finding a mature buck after it comes in range. My largest bow deer to date, my 151" in my avatar snuck in behind me and gave me zero time to do anything other than shoot. I knew he was 38 yards because he was standing in front of my 40 yard tree. Had I not known that info and needed to range-find him, I would be telling you the story of the big buck I saw walk by.

Again, not to turn this thread into another "DEC Mismanagement" debate....there are enough of those..... Why do they constantly chose the most difficult path (another rhetorical question)? Why bow hunters? Why then cram another method into bow season? Why create a new season for guns before bow? The list of why's go on and on. I could spent 3 minutes and probably one $5 foot-long at subway and said: Ok, 500,000 gun hunters in NYS, go shoot a doe, during gun season, please....and thank you (which is basically what they said to bow hunters this past season). They can fabricate as many new ideas as they want, but if they keep targeting the minority of hunters, they will continue to get nowhere. Legalize the use of throwing spears, dart guns, snare traps, dead falls, spike pits, hmmm....what else could we ask bow hunters to do.....let me think........At the end of the day, we are still just 10% of the hunters. This is not a bow verse gun debate for me. I am not choosing sides or making it political. I am not saying which I prefer or going down the path of some sort of anti-bow hunting agenda. I am specifically saying from a PURE LOGICAL standpoint, gun hunters could be 10 times more effective than anything else they chose.....DURING an existing gun season even so they don't have to spend money changing legislation for new seasons. Someone start sending in nominations for me for NYS office and I will funnel all the money i save back to the licensed hunters in this state. I could save us millions with the use of common goddamn sense.

Am I the only rational human that lives in NY? More than 80% of ALL deer harvested are by a gun. More than 90% of all hunters in NY hunt the gun season. I am SO confused why "deer management" became a bow issue and why they are trying to cram other devises into bow season to control doe? Put population objectives in the hands of gun hunters. Hell, make the week before "opening day" doe only for a week. I don't care, but for the love of all things on this planet, lets agree that you can't take the minority and control the majority (even though our liberal state is ineffectively run that way) Can everyone just agree from a pure logical standpoint (remove your preference to your hunting style) that having gun hunters "control" deer numbers is the most rational possibility? You couldn't possibly argue that. I just don't understand why this has been made so difficult and so controversial (that is a rhetorical statement, because I do understand why bow hunters are being punished, but its not worth debating any more).

I'm up to 12 sheds, 1 broken off main beam and a deadhead for my year. It is the best year I've had shed hunting in NY. The strange part is its the worst year I've personally seen for bucks in general. I had the worst hunting year and the lowest number of buck pictures on trail camera's. Most people I have spoke with report the same thing. Despite that, I found my #2 and #3 largest sheds ever. I found 3 matched sets this year (technically a 4th also, but my brother-in-law poached them from under me...lol). I would agree with your mileage report. I've never tracked it as far as miles, but more so in hours. As I posted in another thread, I would guess my average is about 6-8 hours of walking per shed over the course of the years. Equated to mileage, It is probably close to 5 miles a shed. Maybe even higher than that (but I have never tracked distance). It is absolutely, positively Results = Effort formula. Walk more, find more. There is no substitute or magic formula beyond that.

Awesome! You are the gold standard for sure. lol. If you walked exclusively in NYS like the rest of us peasants, I think that average would be more like 50 miles per shed. lol. I only dream of being able to shed hunt in Iowa. I think most of us are in the same boat. I was reading some posts in a shed hunting thread on an Iowa deer forum and the one guy had found 140 already prior to the first week of February! Ridiculous. He had a matched set off a 195" deer and posted the comment "best set I have found in a couple years." What? A couple years? That would be a lifetime achievement here in NYS. I'm still proud of my 12 I have found so far this year. Great job Sam Potter! Seriously!!

Have I mentioned how much I hate squirrels? Lol. Found this one yesterday. Sadly from last year. No idea how I walked by it until now. 8" circumference between the G3 and G4 where my hand is. G2 would have been an easy 10" with a kicker based on the mass of where it is chewed off. <sigh>

The answer provided to the coyote question was alarming! For those of you who missed the meeting: An audience member raised the concern of lack of predator control and the negative effect on deer (to which there is unanimous concern over and why other states even offer a bounty on them). He specifically asked why there were season dates. To which our asteamed biologist replied: "because lengthening the season would not increase the harvest and also because the current "off season" their coats are not ideal for harvest." Ummm.....WHAT????

From Buffalo area, so if it wasn't for the fear of a 60 mile drive in an ice storm, I would have stayed after and shook a few hands. Maybe the next event!

Straight from the Jeremy teet. lol.

Or 4, take a portion of the $47,000,000 in license sales and actually employ enough people to do a good job with BOTH 1 and 2. I laugh at the comments made that the DEC does the best they can. Pa-lease. Lets not forget that HUNTERS are the revenue the DEC uses. NOT suburban mom with her Escalade worried about her goddamn fancy landscaping (as Art had people believing during his presentation). Use the money given by hunters for hunting. But, whatever, I'm under no illusion that would ever change, so I stick with #2: Have the DEC stay the hell out of it.

I agree with what you wrote. I would take that even one step further. I tried explaining this in my prior posts, but as always, people resort to a defensive nature and get off topic with comments like "a Bernie support," "At risk of being attacked by.....," yadda, yadda, yadda. Listen, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I APPRECIATED the fact the event was even arranged and that they did show up to present any information (even if in MY opinion it was flawed). I never attacked anyone, I simply questioned the information. People should learn to question information. With that said, my entire point boils down to this message: The DEC (and our esteemed biologists) are NOT paid to manage hunter expectations. Anyone who think they are has drank the Kool-Aide. It is IMPOSSIBLE to manage hunter expectations because the variance in those expectations varies so greatly. Not just from unit to unit, but from town to town, property to property and even people on the same property. My argument boils to down to the simple fact that, once we accept the DEC is not in the business of making hunters happy, then why provide the illusion they are....AKA, that ridiculous survey that was conducted and the "cornerstone of their research." The DEC has 2 choices to make..... 1) Manage hunting based on hunter expectations. This would be accomplished by conducting a proper study of a much larger group of people, formulating results and basically saying "hey, the majority has spoken, this is what we are doing, deal with it." Those who are not happy can then blame the majority and not the DEC because they are only doing what they were "elected" to do (no different than a gov't official). or 2) Remove the court of public opinion completely out of it. Manage the state wildlife based on biological and ecological research (which their background is supposed to be in) and tell hunters that hunting is a privileged and either enjoy what is offered or don't participate. Our current system lives in a grey area between those 2 models. They act like they want opinion, but then only ask 400 people per 150,000, cram ridiculous reactive solutions down our throat and THEN fall back on biological and ecological reasons for change. Well, which is it? No more illusions. This should be black and white. And, if it were, you would have a lot less issues. Transparency is always key when you are dealing with that much diversity in opinions. At the end of the day, I would chose #2. The DEC should simply manage at a Macro level, based on biological and ecological concerns ONLY, remove public opinion out of it, and allow the hunters and the hunter associations (like the QDMA) to attempt to appease property owners / hunters at a micro level.

I'm not going to mention any specific spot on here since we are both from the same town and the last thing either of us need are MORE people coming in to the area......but, there is a non-hunting spot close to both of us that holds huge deer. I walk it every year for sheds and I am amazed at the fact I find tree stands, bait piles, etc. So, yeah, not surprised by your picture. Maybe you were in the same area I am referring to. There are some SERIOUS scumbag hunters out there that are an embarrassment to our sport.

I'm not one of those people RoadKill. I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion and respect other peoples opinions. I don't believe I have attacked anyone's POV in this forum. I only contest how the DEC misleads people. You are right, they can't solve everyone's problems. Some of the questions last night (or comments) were downright ridiculous. People come to the meeting like a kid sitting on the Mall Santa's lap thinking they can fulfill wishlists. The DEC has PLENTY of funding to do a better job. People who site "they do the best they can" just do not know the facts. Our state has an agenda that is absent of appeasing hunters. That is fine. Nobody said that the DEC's priority should be to make people's hunting dreams come true. But, they should be MUCH more transparent in what their plan is, where the information comes from and stop misleading the children in line to get a new scooter.

I don't think you read what I wrote. My contention has nothing to do with them asking opinions. I thanked them for their time as I appreciate the fact that they did in fact at least show up. I contest the basis of their information. It is not grounded in facts. They regurgitated a bunch of BS as if it was a room full of ignorant people who don't see through it. They would be better off not doing ANY studies then they are to base studies in statistically irrelevant (and perhaps biased information). I own and run a successful business. I will tell you for a fact that at a MINIMUM 3% will return some statistically relevant information. 10-15% is ideal. So, IF the DEC wants an opinion, with 550,000 licensed hunters in the state, at a MINIMUM there should 16,500 results. Ideally that number should be closer to 60,000. Their results of 2,800 for 7 units (400 people per unit) is incompetent and lazy. They should either do the studies correctly (if they value the opinion as both Jeremy and Art mentioned many times with comments like "hunter surveys are the cornerstone of our research.") OR don't do ANY survey's and compile data with other resources. I personally do not care which method they chose, hunter feed back or not, but IF they chose a path, be responsible and do it correctly. I also didn't once type anything about being in support of any specific plan. To each their own on what is shot. I specifically laid reference to the guy who spoke and said manage your own property and don't rely on the DEC. I applaud that effort. On a micro level, the HUNTER needs to be responsible. The DEC will never (nor should they) manage at that level. At a macro level, they SHOULD be competent though. If they can't be, then what are they being paid for?