sits in trees

oh as far as the blame the NYBA thing getting old i don't think so Ludmilla...... http://static.djlmgdigital.com/thr/recordonline/graphics/thLogoNEW.gif[/img] Dirks: New York Bowhunters accused of deceit, selfishness Text Size: | | http://static.djlmgdigital.com/thr/recordonline/graphics/icons/icon_print1.gif[/img]Print this Article http://static.djlmgdigital.com/thr/recordonline/graphics/icons/icon_email1.gif[/img]Email this Article ShareThis Published: 2:00 AM - 07/19/11 During his debate with Jimmy Carter in 1980, then presidential candidate Ronald Reagan made the phrase, "there you go again" famous. The same phrase could be applied to the New York Bowhunters with the recent "Critical Red Alert" posted on their website in response to the state Department of Environmental Conservation's latest five-year whitetail management plan. According to the Bowhunters, "This plan is a recipe for the dismantling of the archery-only hunting seasons as we know them today and it will have a dramatic effect on the quality of hunting during the firearm season as well." Again, we have small and highly organized band of people who have little tolerance for any change. The basic problem is that the Bowhunters believe the early archery season is their exclusive domain. They are against allowing a special youth-only firearms weekend early in bow season. They are also against having an early four-day muzzleloader season, such as the Northern Zone has had for years, because it runs concurrently with the archery season. The Bowhunters are not above stretching the truth or not telling it at all. For example, for the proposed Southern Zone changes they claim, on their website, "If this DEC plan is implemented, bowhunters in 2012 will only have a five days of uninterrupted archery-only hunting season." The truth is that just in consecutive days alone of "uninterrupted archery-only" hunting, we archers get 35 days, not five as their website notes. The DEC proposal moves the opening of the bow season up to Oct. 1, a full two weeks earlier than current regulations. That would give bowhunters up to 47 days of bowhunting during 2012 instead of the current 35 days. Under the DEC proposal, the first five days of the season, starting Oct. 1, would be bowhunting only. Then there would be a concurrent two-day youth-only firearm hunt and then four days — in selected areas only — of a new early muzzleloader season. So, out of a proposed 47-day regular bow season, we'd have to share the woods for two days with youth hunters and another four days with early muzzleloading hunters. What's the harm for extending the opportunities for other hunters in an expanded archery season? The New York Bowhunters have long been the frothing defenders of an archery-only bow season. They could care less about developing more opportunities for youth hunting when it infringes on "their" bow season. David Dirks' outdoors column appears weekly. Contact him through his website, www.dirksoutdoors.com, or write P.O. Box 87, Westtown, NY 10998.

this thread shows just how diversified NY's hunting situation is. too many doe's here, not enough deer there, antlers too small here, poor habitat there, so on and so forth. does anyone really think the DEC has the ability to manage NY's deer herd on a region by region basis? that sounds like like alot of extra work for a dept that is looking at being shrunk down now and even more so in the near future. i agree it's what we need in NY but could it ever be inforced. and just out of curiosity have any other nearby states been able to micro manage their deer season with any success, i hunt PA and i can say first hand that they don't or even care to. across the board rule changes are always going to end up in huge urinating contests, heck look at what it took to even get an early youth turkey hunt in NY.

If the hunter numbers continue to drop and eventually reach the point where the DEC really does have an inability to correct over-populations, then I have to say that they will have no options other than replacing chunks of bow seasons and perhaps even muzzleloading seasons with more regular gun time. That's my honest opinion. I believe that that will happen long after you and I are gone. But if hunter numbers continue to decline or if certain mis-ques by the DEC regarding excessive regulations begin an even more serious decline in hunters it may happen even faster than we could imagine. I also believe that it will come in incremental steps with the introduction other weapons into bow seasons trying to make bow season more productive. Crossbows followed by muzzleloaders and eventually other firearms. Given their obvious attitude toward bowseason as a wasted harvesting opportunity, I believe that these changes are quite predictable However, let me point out that there is absolutely no evidence that I have seen where there is a general inability to stay ahead of over-population other than special unique areas of urban or suburban deer levels. I have yet to see any areas in NY where the numbers look like an out-of control situation that multiple permits wouldn't handle. I've seen it in 8N where the herd size was ridiculously high, and the issuance of even more permits quite quickly caused them to over-shoot their targets to the point where recently they had to reduce permits here. So my belief is that they are looking far into the future and are setting things up for forcasted hunter declines. They know that even though there is a fairly active archery lobby, bow hunters are still the easiest target to attack without unleashing a firestorm of protest. It is generally recognized that bowhunters cannot or will not organize themselves to the point where they can pose any serious political problem. So obviously this is a timeslot that can be quietly tampered with and changed up to be turned into a more effective deer harvesting time. It's all just a matter of time. How much time? ...... I wouldn't even hazard a guess. Maybe a lot less than we think. While I agree with most of this, I dont see the proposed changes as anything other than what they are at this point. Very limited use of MLs in area where they need population control, and the current set of seasons isnt having enough of an impact. Still waiting to hear your opinion on what should be done. In answer to your question, I think I have already said that the DEC is doing what they must do. Given the hunter decline phenomenon, they have no choice but to invade bow seasons with more efficient weapons. It's up to bowhunters to fight that if they want to preserve any practical aspects of pure bowhunting. With that battle being fought, hopefully compromises will occur that satisfy both sides as much as can be expected. I'm not sure just who we expect to carry the bowhunter part of the battle seeing as to how so many bowhunters refuse to organize. But that's another topic. I think I probably view the proposed muzzleloader seasons as being more of an impact than many others do simply because of my location. If there is any place in the state that the early muzzleloader season will be almost permanently installed, it is 8N .... lol. However, any WMU can eventually be impacted by the possibility at any time so I would guess that no bowhunter anywhere should ignore that as a real event. I might add that any limitations such as "doe only" can be changed at the mere stroke of a pen so I don't take a whole lot of solice in that rule. If you think back to what bow season was when it first started vs. what it is today you can readily see that rules and regulations are temporary at best. Also the early youth gun season is proposed as statewide as I understand it. The impacts of that are still only theoretical, but it does show the DEC's readiness to choose the one season where such an event would have the biggest impact on bowhunting. Incidentally, the choice for the location of that special season further convinces me that bowseason is looked upon as being sacrificial by the DEC. I believe that these proposed changes are simply incremental steps that even by themselves have some significant impacts on bowhunting but even worse it establishes the precedent of adding deer hunting gun seasons right in the middle of a bowseason. Once that is accepted, there is no limit after that. In my last reply above, I have listed the reasons why I believe that these things are not happening simply because of coincidence or oversight. once again the self proclaimed Docteur has taken over a thread with endless pages of dribble and a whirlwind of BS without even so much as saying a word that means a damn thing, the ole coot is truly amazing..does anyone here actually read any of this crap anymore? ???

Steve- I think the point that is being missed is that the 2nd amendment really has absolutely nothing to do with hunting. In fact, hunting is not mentioned there at all. Also, hunting is simply one of the legitimate uses of firearms. In fact it would not surprise me if I were to find out that the majority of firearms owners do not hunt, or that hunting was a secondary activity for them. Even as dedicated as I am to hunting, I would say that the first mission of my guns is to provide personal and family protection. For me there is no way to be too extreme about that. If you have heard the saying, "when seconds count the police are only minutes away". Well, when you live out in rural America, that saying takes on particular significance. I also am involved in target shooting. There too, extremism is in the eye of the beholder. Others are very serious about collecting firearms and I recognize their right to do that. I'm sure their tastes can drift toward the unusual when it comes to firearms selection and that should be their right. The point is that when you define the right to bear arms only in the context of hunting, your arguments get to be very limited, and a lot of other perfectly legitimate uses of firearms of all kinds begin to get left out of the discussion. That is one of the things that he NRA does. They complete the discussion by not leaving out any of the legitimate reasons for the protection of private ownership of weapons. yea Doc when the hoards start comin down your road you will probably be the first to shoot yourself in the foot ;D

ohhh so now your okay with the additional youth hunting opportunities, or do you only use the crossbow debate thingy because you know you might have a couple of backers on that one. Doc your old, boring, and way out of date, your ideas on what hunting should be faded out decades ago. time for you to get on that horse and ride off into the sunset gramps...thats if you can even still get up on one ;D

i have to agree, right now they are the only ones out there, if we as gun owners ever get the screws put to us they will be there. but i would really appreciate being spoken to by them(NRA) like an adult, ease up on the scare tactics and scary stories. and the constant hammering or donation letters and emails sent to my house make me pissed, i could heat my house with all the damn paper work they send me. their membership may be at an all time high but that has had it's dips and high points thru out history also.

until they grunt??? yer being followed by hogs dear ;D

it's about 50 bucks but keep a can of bear pepper spray on hand if you don't want to kill one. if one climbs your tree or sticks his head in your blind it will work and you wont be up on murder charges... i keep a can when turkey hunting because there are some big suckers running around the woods that time of year.

I think we often become a bit complacent on this point and sometimes bury our head in the sand about just what kinds of impacts the animal rights movement has really had on social attitudes toward hunting. Yes, some of the more extreme rantings and ravings are quickly dismissed by the general public, but a lot of the quieter persuasion in our schools, the media and other sources of influence continue to chip away at public support for consumptive outdoor activities. We think of all kinds of reasons why hunter numbers are on the decline, and most of them are true, but we seem to want to ignore that the biggest problem is that hunting just isn't "cool" anymore. It has lost favor among our youth, and is also being abandoned by more and more adults. I'm thinking that a lot of that cultural change is being driven by the decades old constant drumbeat of campaigns from the animal rights wackos and their millions of dollars that they spend on lawsuits and P.R. attacks on hunting, fishing and trapping. We can ignore all that if we want to, but that doesn't make those impacts go away. The point is that while they operate with a highly organized and financed front, we sit back an nit-pick our own advocacy groups to death. It has become a one sided argument with no one from our side with matching resources to push our arguments. Frankly, I will never down-play the threat that they pose to hunting. so if you feel this way why on earth don't you support the recent youth hunting and crossbow groups in our state that are trying to get additional opportunities for hunters in our state to take part in. or are you just a desk fan sittin there making wind? once again you come up with all your usual reasons for why hunter numbers are declining in NY with no solutions to the problem at all, then when people try to do things that just might turn the tide on our problem you come up with a million and one reasons to why it just won't work, i just dont get you man?i think your just happy as a pig in poop with the way things are right now, less hunters, less kids, more deer for you, and you spew your defeatist attitude in hope of keeping things just the way they are.

this used to be true about 40 years ago, but when the choices are only from group A or group B we will continue being set up just like bowling pins, set us up, knock us down!!

no joke, we could come to a point in this country where cash is king.....and the only way we will be able to survive is with goods and services locally. look at whats going on in Washington with the debt ceiling, possible gov shutdowns, gridlock, the moneys done gone, the Gov is no longer in the position to help this situation, at this point all they can do is side track us with BS. i have a feeling this 9% unemployment is the new norm. Chinas eatin our lunch! ahh at least as hunters we should be able to feed ourselves....

don't worry about your early retirement, if NY keeps going on the path it's on that will dry up sooner than later. even with the layoff of 10 thousand NY state workers there is still no solution to the under funded pension funds. and revenue thru tax increases, faagedaboudit! default is looming, oh wait it's federally guaranteed, hee, hee, thats a good one...get ready fellas, it's all gonna come tumblin down real quick now

i think it's time we just face up to the fact that we are no longer number 1, our day in the sun is coming to an end no matter who is president..we are never going to beat 1.5 billion Chinamen or 1 billion Indians who are very hungry for the same things we have enjoyed over the last 50 years or so. yea 50 years or so, beeen a short run but it was fun while it lasted, heck my grandparents were lucky to have 1 car in their day and old gramps never bought new, he just fixed and cobbled things forever.... we are heading into new times, make adjustments the best you can and try and live with it..or just keep watchin Fox news with a box of hankies by yer side.

been watchin Fox News haven't ya ;D

hogweed??? what the hell next!!!

i second this....they just seem to align themselves with some of the wrong people. some of their recent freedom rallies were just alittle too much.

i have friends in Minisink Valley, 9.4% increase!! and me 6.5% in my town....only a few handred bucks a year but after a few years, ahhh you what i mean, just do the math..

finally the 2% cap on property/school taxes is law, Praise the LORD!!!!!

if thats what one wants to use in their pursuit of deer, why not? it wouldnt be for me but i wouldnt wanna stop anyone who wanted to use one.

you and others like you who want to impose the way others must hunt will soon learn that is a recipe for failure. hunting and the people who enjoy the sport of hunting by their very nature are freedom loving people, we don't like meaningless nitpicky rules. hunting is all about freedom, if you don't beleive me look at europe, hey you might fit in their nicely with the high arsed you gotta pay 10 thousand bucks a year to hunt crowd....

OK i'm ready, in the spirit of freedom and the American way(july 4) i'm ready to fight. i beleive we as FREE Americans have the right to choose what weapon we want to hunt with and should never be denied by tyrannical, socialist elittists who want to decide for others how and what they hunt with, COMMIE FREAKS DIE!!!! Crossbows for all!

as "talks alot" says 150 ft/50yds is a little close nomatter where you hunt, i think reducing to 300 feet would be a good comprimise and very safe....

current law states you can shoot with you back to a road as long as you are shooting away from the road and not over it. the 500ft from dwellings (sheds and barns included) is for guns and bows. now for guns i can see having the 500 ft setback, but for bows it just stupid. the vast majority of bow hunters hunt from elevated stands and shoot down, so as far as "Grows too much's" theory about getting an arrow shot into her livestock rearend is a pure joke, her rear is more than safe ;D the areas that are most affected by deer over population are mostly towns villages and lower NY state/long island etc, these areas are already burdened by anti hunting groups and almost everything else under the sun. decreasing from 500 to say 300 or maybe 250 would open up alot of new areas for hunters in lower NY state, and there are some huge deer in those areas not to mention. ;D

Sorry totally disagree with this one...you were doing OK up to that point....I live deep in the woods...my live stock is in the woods and I have seen just how far a deflected arrow can travel...no way....500ft for all weapons.... just what you would expect from this joker ;D 500 feet for archery is ridiculous, there are places in this state that are swelling with deer and hunters can't get access because of the 500 feet thing. i think she's more concerned with getting an arrow in her arse for possibly being mistaken as livestock

Ohhh Docs eloquent dance as to why anything tried by anyone to get more young folks into hunting just won't work. sounds all too familiar to his reasoning as to why crossbows won't help increase hunter numbers in NY either, Kinda funny how anything that is tried by anyone to increase hunter numbers is just no good, yet he will post hundreds of pages of his useless philosophizing dribble on all the reasons why something wont work without ever suggesting any realistic solutions as to how to make something work. oh he will give you his suggestions but it always leads to some wingnut sociological theory on why it waz alwayz betta in da ole dayz BS. very simple the man has a fear of anyone else out in the woods near him that might wack one of his deer before he does, especially a kid, GOD FORBID!!!big time loser.