stubby68

Culver I know qdma is an organiation and I also know that qdm is pushed by qdma. I never b said a doe needs a trophy class buck to breed and yes they will stand for a younger buck. However when you kill the biggest bucks on your property year after year eventually you run out of bucks to do the breeding. Does will leave a property to search for bucks if there are few to no breeding age bucks where they are. Are there deer that stay on one property there whole life? Sure are hut most will move to find what they need, food, water, breeding, cover whatever they need to survive and perpetuate the species. I know I haven't got it all right .But, Can anyone explain to me how our deer numbers were fine before trophy hunting ,but then dropped way off after a few years of trophy hunting. Trophy hunting was stopped and we all went back to shooting anything older then a 6 month fawn. The deer numbers have been coming back up sence and every year is better then the last. We have a wide variety of age structure and numbers getting better. Yes I have pics of every small buck I have shot. Those that I posted were to show that I have taken more then just 1 1/2 year old bucks. I do have a shoulder mount and several euro mounts. My father is retired and saves the heads of some of the deer we get so he has projects for the year. He did the mount and the euros . He also cuts the tines off and uses them to make knife handles, door handles and many other things. He also sells the racks .No not all the bucks I posted were mine 2 of them were not, the 2 biggest actually. I never said they were all mine. I just said no special skills were not needed to get these deer. They just happened to walk by.I could post pics of the small bucks but why bother. Every time I have been called out on my ( skills ) as a hunter I post pics as prove and t b end the pics are attacked. You can't tell me why I am wrong so you discredit my pics. I was asked to give my reason on why trophy hunting is bad and I did. I told of the changes for the better we have seen since stopping trophy hunting yet because all anyone wants is big racks at any cost I am wrong. I started a legit post yet because the big buck hunters were afraid that some light would be she'd on the truth about trophy hunting and the fact that there are very few real deer hunters left I was attacked. As a result things strayed far f r on the original question because I was forced to defend myself. I do not begrudge any the right to hunt the way they want but do not tell me the results we have seen since stopping trophy hunting. And also no bow hunting are wrong. Not when you have not been there to see the change. I say trophy hunting hurts the herd I am dead wrong just because no matter what I am seeing for results in our area. You say trophy hunting helps the herd and you are right j u st because you say so. I strive for the most a mount of deer our properties can hold with the widest variety of age and size. Not the fewest oldest and biggest.No trophy hunting has achieved this for me I am sorry that this offends any of you. Probably time to lock this thread as it has turned into a mess as all threads that show just a little provery that trophy might not be the best way to help the herd.

Shoot off all the breeding bucks and the doe leave. the smaller ones fallow. That and each the big bucks get smaller and smaller because all the biggest have been killed. And the next trophy is smaller. Eventually that causes less doe being bred. Which in turn causes lower numbers. If few bucks to do the breeding the does will move to where the bucks are. Some species of animal can change sex when more of the opposite see is needed to populate. Others will move to where there in a higher number of needed sex. Bucks are not the only ones who will travel to breed. Does will when buck numbers are not there.

Then why ever time qdma talks the main they say is it helps get older bigger bucks. Ask how qdma helps the herd the first and last thing that is said. Bigger bucks. And of corse bigger bucks always means a healthier herd.

Thanks. I'm willing to try anything . post it or send in pm I will try some.

What you think every buck breeds ? Maybe you guys should stop listening to the cap qdma keeps putting out there. A quality deer herd doesn't mean having all huge old bucks as they like to push. If you are old enough think back to the days when deer numbers were great through the whole state. How did people hunt then ? Did they go for trophy or for meat? It was meat. What are most hunters looking for now? TROPHYS. deer are now way over populated in some areas and way under in others.

The hunting was crappie on the land but since we took over and stopped the trophy hunting the hunting gets better every year. The neighbors saw this and asked what we were doing. When we told them they did not believe it. However the change they saw proved it. Now they do the same thing and every year is better then the last.

The best land is not the one with the most big bucks. The best land is one with lots of deer of all sizes and ages. Yes read books write by people who never go in the woods and get all there info from controlled studies. Those are the ones who know not the guys who are out there almost every day seeing it first hand. I know what has happened in our area because I am there all the time ever and was one of those who started the change that is fixing the problem.

Thanks for trying to explain it better. Actually my example can be used on wildlife as well and is. High gradeingrade in Comercial fishing is a problem and is shown to hurt fish populations and they are not stationary.

Stop thinking of farm raised in a controlled setting with food plots and feeders aviable. And predators very controlled. Yes in the wild there a few bucks that never get seen. Very few. The ones that are never seen do little to no breeding. They only move to eat and are waiting to die.Only time they get seen or killed is when someone stumbles on to them. These bucks are so few in number and do so little breeding they have no effect on the herd at all.

Are you agreeing with my post? What you wrote points exactly to what I am saying. Mother nature decided that to survive the had to be fewer and less desirable of a species. Not because of her doing but because of humans high gradeing. Those humans stopped and the plant survives. How ever with trophy hunting the humans just start taking what was once considered the less desirable as there trophy. That is the problem.

Doesn't understand the topic ? I started it. You wanted me to enlighten you on how trophy hunting and always passing young bucks hurts themail herd. I did that. Just because I prove my side and you have not proven yours I am the one who does not understand? Typical trophy for everything I do mentality. You are bowing out because you have no facts other then those from controlled studies to back up your trophy hunting. Surprise controlled studies are set up to show the results the people conducting the studies want. I asked how many would stop hunting if they could not shoot buckd. Turns out a lot . It separates the hunters from the interior decorators.

Must be in the past tense because you sucked at it? Good degree if you can age them better by a picture then the state biolgest who had them in his hands and took there bottom jaws. You probably use to be a gourmetc chef too right? Venison does not taste the same from all deer just as beef does not taste the same from all cattle.

Funny how killing coyote someone for chasing and killing deer is fine but when someone's dog does they get a pass. Only difference between a pet doing it as ND a coyote is the pet goes back to a nice warm home after they have the fill of deer and the coyote stays in the woods under a downed tree or hole in the ground.

Don't know how I could prove it. I just know I lived it. Just because you don't believe it does not mean it didn't happen. If this happened back then there wouldn't even be a story on this guy.

Like I said this was years ago when someone said deer season back then we were talking with a gun. Bow season was never thought of as being hunting season around here back then. As far as I'm concerned it still isn't . However the deer hunters were not the only ones who considered the woods off limits for anyone's other then deer hunters then they were called the deer woods for a reason.. It was called deer season and ( hunting season) stopped until deer season was over. plenty of time for small game hunters before and after deer season. Too many people see animals ( pets for this matter) as being more then what they are and that is animals. I own dogs, take my dogs for walks and hunting neither of which I do with them during deer season. If I ever saw one of them chase even one deer it would get shot. If you don't want your dog's shot keep them on a leash or at home off other people's properties. Your pet does not have the right to trespass or disturb someone's deer hunt just because you feel it is a family member.

It's called high gradeing. The older bucks do 90% of the breeding. If you kill off all the largest and oldest bucks every year each years selection gets worse and worse. You can not kill off the best of any species every year and expect it to not hurt that populations future. It takes time for mother nature to put the best back into the herd after hunters have killed off all the best. Every year we he guys saying the passed on 10 or 15 little bucks and only saw one or two good bucks. Even trail cam pics show large numbers of small young bucks and only a few big old bucks.Young bucks have less of a chance of getting a doe pregnant then older ones. Killing off all the older bucks eventuall leads to degrading of the herd. If you have 10 bucks that are under 2 1/2 and 2 that are 4 1/2 and you kill those two older ones you are left with all young bucks. The next year the oldest will be at most 3 1/2 kill them because they are the biggest and best you have left and the next year is worse. That 400 acres is not the only land in the area. We have another parcel of 90, a neighbor with 160, another with 78, another with 43, 18,and another 72.That makes 861 acres that the deer numbers were low on after years of high gradeing. Numbers are now on the rise. Before everyone got crazy for antlers the deer numbers were great. After the antler hunting started we saw lower and lower numbers every year. We all went back to hunting the way it was meant to be for a source of food. Numbers are coming back. Before selective hunting things were good during selective things started getting bad Stopped selective hunting things getting better again. Not too hard to see what the problem was. A balanced herd has a good selection of young old and middle age deer not just all young because all the biggest oldest have been made into decorations. Leave some of the older ones and take a few young and middle age one . I did not start this thread for an argument. With all the talk of AR and last year's two weeks doe only I was curious how many would still hunt if they couldn't hunt bucks.Most would be fine with it because they would have a lot of trophy after the 5 years. How about no bucks ever ? Bet 90 % of you would never hunt NY state again.

I never said I or anyone needed to fill tags to survive. I said I would not waste money by not filling tags I paid for. Just like I will not go to a grocery store give them money and not take food home. None of us are better off eating meat from a store. Deer meat is 100% natural and taste so much better. As for being delusional. when we took over the property we have now, 400 acres. The deer population was way low. Previous hunters were big buck hunters. The population is getting better every year and we shoot anything 1 1/2 and up. My hunting clothes I have had for years same with my guns. I have enough amo for many years. All this stuff has been paid for and more over the years. The only yearly cost I have are the tags and lease. Gas for truck and time for hunting is not a factor because I am out in the woods whenever I am not working. That is hunting or not year round If I was not hunting I would be there anyways. The wild game I take f r on the property easy replace more then enough story bought meat to cover the cost of the lease and tags. Tags and lease together are less the $ 1000 a year and since the cost of the lease is spread over everything I do there the cost for hunting is very small. The deer populations in this state have gotten way out of wack over the years. Over the time that this has been has been happening trophy hunting has grown. How can anyone not make the connection. When there were more meat hunters and less trophy hunters the herd was far better shape. Now more trophy hunters and less meat hunters and herd out of wack. 2 + 2 = 4 it adds up.

I don't need to fill tags to have a good day in the woods either. I am not brown is down either. I make sure the deer is at least 1 1/2 years old. No more then 2 1/2 for a buck unless last I can hunt to fill the tag then I will go older. Does I will shoot at 1 1/2 and up to whatever. I will not waste money and paying for a tag and not using it is wasting money. If I have been seeing lots of deer I will sometimes let any walk just because I do not feel like doing the work after the shot. I also do not need a tag to be out enjoying the woods. I make sure all my work around the house is done and I am in the woods all the time year round. I will go before work after work and any time I have off. Sometimes hiking most time I just sit in the woods and enjoy nature. The Tage give me a chance to get food for the family while doing what I Enjoy.

As I am only 48 it was not 50 years ago and anybody shot them. ECO and LEO'S were fine with it. They encouraged it. If they were called for dogs chasing deer by the time they got there the dogs would be gone. They had our and many others numbers to call to get there sooner. Heck it was common to see guys out looking for dogs chasing deer. I have lived and hunted the southern tier my whole life I saw it and partisapated in it. Dogs who chased deer were treated the same as coyotes are now only with no season. If we shot a dog with tags we gave tags to Leo and they found owner and owner was fined. There have been a few comments about hunting small game with dogs during deer season. Never had that no one hunted small game during November. It was deer season and everyone else stayed out of the woods. Dogs should be kept on a leash or at home during deer season. Let them walk themail woods freely and there fate is your fault.

I know about late season I ment through all gun season. Why does it have to be buck only at all. If I don't see a buck at all I might not see enough doe to fill thAt tag on the week it is either sex. As for filling tags. Number I would like enough venison to have it every day of the year. I can easily use 8 deer up in no time. Also I spend money on the tags if they do not get used then that is money wasted. might as well throw the money in the wood stove. It is by no means a lot of money however I am not in the habit of buying something and not using it. Would you buy . a, pair of shoes never wear them the throw them in garbage. Do you goto a grocery store and give them money and walk out without food.

All but one were aged by biologist as being 3 1/2 or older. no special skills needed. None of them were targeted. They were known to be there and happened to be the only buck seen as season came to a clIse.They were shot to make sure a tag did not go unused. None are huge yet they are all what most hunters look for when wanting older bigger bucks. Shot your old nasty bucks and continue to add special flavors to them all you want. I will stick to eating nice tasty tender meat.

If you need to have specials skills to cook the meat in a way that makes it edible then there is something wrong with the meat. More then salt and pepper and you are just adding flavors you want and not enjoying the flavor of the meat it's self. Heck truly good meat needs nothing but heat to make it a joy to eat.

Here is a question that came up the other day while discussing AR and the doe only 2 weeks during bow last year with a few guys. Seemed like there were alot of guys who sat out or found hunting spots in areas they could kill bucks those 2 weeks last year.How many guys would still deer hunt if you were not allowed to shoot bucks. Say instead of AR how about Dec jus close the whole state to buck hunting for 5 years. That would really help in the quest for older bigger bucks wouldn't it? I know I would still hunt. Heck I wish I could get my regular season tag as an either sex tag like bow hunters do. I would rather take a doe for the meat then a buck for the rack,and if I didn't see a buck I wouldn't lose money on a tag not getting used.

You really didn't read what I wrote. Back when things were good we all shot anything that walked by. high numbers of deer being taken every year. 5 or 6 a day was very common. Can't say these high kill numbers hurt the herd at all. We never saw a problem with deer numbers until trophy hunting,qdm, and qdma became so popular. With most being meat hunters we were able to keep the herd balanced very well. Generations of huntING like this and every year the herd was just as big as the year before. If not sometimes better.Now you could say all this killing is what hurt the herd, however the herd never started shrinking until the selective hunting generation came in with there hopes of getting big decorations for there little man caves. As for where I hunt and live it is western NY. No where near that cesspool on the east side of the state. Some guys will say our numbers are high because they see 5 deer in a field at the same time. I will say it is good when I can see 40 deer in every field every time I make the 25 mile trip to my father's 3 times a week like I use to be able to. As for new neighbors there are none land has been owned be same people for many many years. We have 400 acers in one plot and 90 in another with a neighbor in between. Total of 7 hunters on all 490 acers. We and our neighbors have started to see a incline in numbers since we all stopped the selective hunting and went back to the old ways. Only one who hasn't is the hunting club and they only hunt opening weekend. No problems with poachers never has been. Meat hunting worked in the past it can work in the future if we can just get people to give up the need for decorations.

What kind of a world do we live in that animals have more rights then humans?