nyantler

I'd hunt there... with all the hunters leaving... I'd have the whole WMU to myself!! AR's would definitely have a biological benefit... it's just at this point there is no imminant "threat" to the whitetail herd biologically.. that in no way means that herd health and structure are optimum.. just adequate... if you're shooting for adequate things are just fine... if you're shooting for better than average... better age structure and ratios need to be developed in some areas. Why would we not want the better herds if its possible? I notice too that lots of you guys have little confidence in your ability to find and kill an older buck... even though many of you have never tried.

The whole idea of modern deer management was based on it... it is by far the most lacking natural occurance in the whitetail world... the studies I have done with captive deer back in the 90's where ratios are near 1:1 show exactly what I explained to you... young bucks are very submissive when there is a balanced age structure and strict hierarchy... does will gravitate towards the stronger more dominant bucks in the group... not to say that in the wild there wouldn't be isolated cases of aggressive young bucks during the 2nd and 3rd estrus cycles... but in the cases I've seen personally... as the buck:doe ratio got closer almost all does got bred early seeking out the mature more dominant bucks... and as a general rule young bucks became very subdued because older bucks get so aggressive that they will actually kill young bucks that got too agressive.. I've even seen the most dominant of the group kill other mature bucks... in fact in one case a nine year old buck had to be removed from the herd because he was getting too dangerous during the breeding season. In NY over the years the ratios got so far away and the lack of older age classes allowed young bucks to be the main breeders in many herds, and because hunter took so many bucks compared to does there were not enough bucks to get most does bred early... this leads to later born fawns.. lesser body weights for fawns entering their first winter.. and all around tougher time for deer.

It is extremely important to check your brace height, nocking point and arrow weight... each of these things can throw an arrow off a mile if not adjusted properly. Also make sure of your bow cant.. you don't want your bow canted too much or not enough. Sometimes it is something you're doing technique wise that causes what you discribe... especially if you're doing it consistantly.

Thats what is use to be like back when there was a one buck rule...

Hopefully I'll get to meet you both at the Big Buck Club banquet this Sept

This is an interesting thread... I think Doc kind of hit it on the head for me... as far as the eating what you kill thing. I think a good hunter knows how to balance all the things that you fellas talk about... I never get to deep about any of it... I enjoy hunting, I like to eat wild game, I am very conscious of conservation and do my part to give back by doing the right things for the animal first and myself second... I try to remember that without the animals we hunt... there would be no hunting and we would not be having this conversation... Most of all I try to remember that there are way more important things in the world than hunting... family, friends, health, and happiness being a few of those things...

Not necessarily... may simply be a doe or does in the same area that just didn't get bred during the short estrus cycle which only lasts 24 hours. It takes about 28 days for a doe to come back into heat if not bred the first time. All the more reason to have closer buck:doe ratios... so that you don't have 2-3 young bucks trying to service 20 does then trying again 28 days later and possibly again 28 days after that... the sooner all does get bred the sooner the buck "frenzy" will end. Don't get me wrong.. they still will have the urge... It is believed that this pheromones advertising the estrus cycle causes bucks to produce more male hormones, so without the female phermones filling the area the bucks urges will be diluted some... in herds with more older bucks and a well established hierarchy.. young bucks get tired of being kicked around and become more timid than they would be if they were the only age class breeding...

Wouldn't you have someone pay to feed your family before you had them pay for your internet bill... ?? Just sayin'

With greater competition and older bucks comes the creation of a hierarchy... young bucks may spar and even chase... but the actually breeding will more than likely done by the older bucks... the big fight will be among older bucks... what really helps the younger bucks though is the fact that as the age classes balance so usually does the buck:doe ratio.. getting most does bred in their first estrus... and decreasing the amount of receptive does for late estrus breeding... shortening the actual breeding frenzy. It's not about "wanting" a certain age group to breed... it's about "letting" the natural process take place with all buck ages being represented... the hierarchy created with the new balanced age structure works all by itself the way it's suppose to.

Still like to have those stories for my website!!!

I would say the same of homesexuality... it is an evil sickness posing as normal behavior.

Not even close to the same thing... the owner never mentioned not serving gays.. or anyone for that matter... he just stated his opinion of what marraige is.

But I'm the arrogant one for trying to explain the benefits of age structure to him... maybe we should explain the benefits of hunting laws to him instead... nah... he won't understand that either.

This time of year the neck is not the best indicator.. but the chest any belly on this buck are a dead give away. Anything beyond 3.5 is hard to tell even for the non-newbie.

LOL

That about sums it up for the rest of us too..LOL.. I sure don't want to force any legal hunting views on you..

He means just what he says... the DEC is not shooting for optimum herd health.. they're more concerned with finding a balance that doesn't piss off hunters. I agree with him .. there is no imminent biological danger at hand in NY's whitetail population that would be solved by AR's. I probably should clarify that when I speak about AR's I speak in terms of it's benefit to deer management.. i am in no way pushing for AR's in NY.. I'm just laying out facts about the benefits of AR's in general to a sound management concept... if I come on a bit strong it would be because some people refuse to educate themselves on the subject, yet spout nonsensical explainations for why they won't work or pass incorrect information about what they really are designed to do... I thoroughly understand the resistance to AR's... it was worse 20 years ago when I first spoke about them... I think I've said before that I respect someone who opposes AR's and simple says the truth.. that they want to be able to take any deer they choose because thats what they enjoy.. I don't respect someone that says that they don't like them because they don't work or because it interferes with their meat hunting... especially with all the tags available to hunters today.

It was meant to be condescending... and meat hunters are not lowly slobs. I am a meat hunter too...I just don't need to use that as justification for how I hunt.

That buck has all the characteristics of a mature buck... at least 3.5

I have typed the answer so many times on this forum that my fingers hurt... you fellas need to do a little homework and read up on buck age structure and how it benefits overall herd management. I will say however that age structure alone, without doe management, habitat management, buck:does ratios, isn't the end all.. be all. It's the entire package that creates the healthiest herds given the available habitat. The greatest benefit of age structure is to the young bucks... the older the age structure the less yearling bucks get to breed... giving them time to gain the body size that they will need to make it through the tough winters. Also, a good AR program tends to cause a slight increase in doe take and an increase in hold-over bucks. This moves the buck:doe ration closer.. leaving plenty of bucks to breed does during their first estrus cycle.. producing earlier born fawns and reducing the number of late born fawns. When fawns are born early they have more time to prepare for the lean winters and fawn mortality numbers tend to drop in the herd. If you check any good management program you will find better deer hunting overall... which means more meat for the "meat hunters". There is nothing about AR's that hasn't been proven to benefit herd management or benefit hunters. Hunter ignorance about deer manageement is the only thing that stands in the way of hunters and deer benefiting from a good mangeement program. Ask those that already manage their herds.. I defy you to find a guy that doesn't think the program is beneficial to the herd and his personal hunting experience. It's only the stubborn hunters that know nothing about proper deer management and haven't taken the time to really learn about it or try it that seem to do all the bitching. Those that have seem to like it just fine.

LOL.. I'm pretty sure I never said that... hunter participation is another part of the deer management equation. There is a difference between arrogance and knowing a bit about the subject. It's a bit more arrogant to think that you can make statements that are based on ignorance rather than fact... guys like you spout off your opinion.. then back it up with total bullshit... the opinion I can respect... having that opinion based on your refusal to learn something about the subject I can't. I have an opinion about AR's, but I back it up with real facts...If that's arrogant to you... then so be it.

No I am taking about buck age structure as a part of managing a healthy herd... you're talking about how the herd meets your needs, not about herd management. Age structure as I see it has little to do with rack size and more to do with balancing the structure of the herd. So called, meat hunters care only about herd numbers and nothing about total herd management as it relates to available habitat.. for that matter they care little about the habitat either. Anyone who doesn't understand how age structure benefits overall herd health knows nothing about deer management... ignoring buck age structure and buck:doe ratios... is like leaving the outmeal out of an outmeal cookie and still calling it an outmeal cookie!! Nobody is singling out one aspect of anything, just adding it the recipe... it's the one thing that has been missing from proper deer management in New York. The fact that you and many other hunters don't understand that doesn't change the fact that it's so.

good head start!!

That would be fine if it was just about herd numbers... and again that proves my point.. only caring about deer as meat does little for preserving whitetails or conservation... and again there in lies the problem in NY.

I guess this guy should have been culled.. looks like bad genetics to me...