nyantler

I'd love to call him a dead deer!

The pre-rut is always better in my opinion... the bucks are searching more than chasing... they are usually much easier to call and moving much slower when you see them.

Well said Doc...

I know the trophy hunting angle is always the first thing to be brought up when talking of AR's... The true reason for AR's is only to establish a better age structure amongst the buck population... Yes... unfortunately it is absolutely true that most hunters only look at all the big antlers that are going to be produced... there always will be more big antlered bucks with well structured age classes of buck.. thats just the bi-product of having more mature bucks.. the fact that most of you hate "trophy hunters" is not a reason to be against having a better age structure in the buck population... or to make up all the things you think you know about how a good AR works... I can respect the guy who just comes out and says, "I personally don't care about the age structure of the buck herd... I only care about shooting a buck each year so that I can tell everyone how good of a deer hunter I am." at least that guy is being honest.

And to the game departments a dead deer is a dead deer. They need deer shot off, and they could care less what type of headgear the bucks are wearing when they get shot. Genetics and antlers only matter to hunters. Game departments only pretend to be interested in both to make trophy hunters think they are doing something to grow bigger bucks for them. Funny how genetics automatically means ANTLERS to hunters. In humans genetics can mean intelligence, looks, types of personality you might inherit, the type of diseases you might be prone to, many different things. Who is to say that a 4 1/2 year old scrawny antlered buck doesn't have some better genetic traits than one with huge perfect antlers?? Who the hell really knows? All hunters care about are the horns, which tells me this interest in deer genetics is nothing more than a self-serving one for hunters. Where do you come up with this crap? Spoken like someone who truly has no idea what he's talking about. If thats your opinion thats fine but none of it has any basis in fact.

Thats the problem is some guys are paying whatever and buying into the hype... back when the first Scentlok suits were made and they were just getting started... you could buy an entire suit... headgear and all for $99... today they are $300-600 depending on what you want... guys were willing to pay whatever to get one and Scentlok was smart enough to make them pay whatever... I have one of the first suits they ever made from when I did business with them in the 90's... I think it is a terrific product... but I refuse to pay what the suit cost today.. I think the cost of hunting "stuff" is getting out of hand. Maybe thats why I have gotten rid of all my fancy stuff and gone back to the old stuff. The worst of all is what people pay just because of the camo pattern... a deer doesn't know if you spent $10 or $1000... or if its Mossy Oak or Realtree... or just an old Hawaiian shirt you had laying around from your honeymoon

From the comments that I have heard from most hunters here and elsewhere, they really wish that coyotes were not a protected species, and were treated more like rats, woodchucks, and bugs. That kind of attitude removes the fair chase thoughts. So, if we wonder why they apply a different standard to coyotes than they do deer, that attitude probably figures heavily into it. I have mixed emotions about coyotes, and probably come down more on the side of those who really wish they had not reappeared here in NYS. To me they do represent a form of vermin. I probably would feel the same if all of a sudden wolves or cougars showed up here. So if some hunters want to use extreme methods to hunt them, I have no problem with that. Anyway, from what I read, it sounds like there are no methods that really threaten to eradicate them anyway. So I don't think we really need to be too concerned for their welfare.....lol. Although I don't believe coyotes have the impact on deer that most think...I don't have a love or hate for coyotes or even really care how guys hunt them... I was just thinking that if in fact they were over hunted and dropped to very low populations and the DEC decided to restrict the hunting of them... there would be some unhappy campers out there that really enjoy their coyote hunting... but i suppose there will always be unhappy campers no matter what..

Be careful what you wish for.. eliminate all the coyotes... or even drop the numbers dangerously low and there goes your coyote hunting...

Yes easy... first of all a weapon can not be ethical or not ethical..only the guys shooting it can be.

there is no example anywhere in the US that deer management and AR's haven't worked where they have been applied properly, the question really is.. Can the NYDEC apply any of it properly? I think not! As you all know I am all for deer management with antler restrictions in some circumstances... I'm just not confident that New York State could pull off a proper program statewide that would be beneficial to all or most WMU's Can they enforce it would be a better question. All they have to say is it is so and it is. So implementing antler restrictions isn't a problem. The NYSDEC couldn't enforce themselves out of a box without the help of other sportsman. For the entire Broome county area there are three officers. And in 25 yrs of hunting I have only been checked 3 times and they were all in 2009 when hunting stateland. Unless a neighbor turns in there neighbor for shooting something under the limit, people will probably continue to kill spikes and four points anyhow. The difference will be that the hunter won't be able to brag about his little buck to all the people at the bar..

Who really knows when the rut will happen? It's always a crap shoot and the rutting window is sometime short or long... if anyone could really predict how it is going to play out each year... there would be a greater percentage of hunters taking bucks each year.. that is not the case...

I think that when it comes to coyotes (and other predators), the gloves come off. Fair chase is not an issue when it comes to the attempt at eradicating coyotes. We have this attitude that similar to mosquitos ...... the world would be better off without them. Whether we all agree with that attitude or not, I think that answers your question as to why principles of fair chase apply to one species and not the other for many hunters. Another obvious consideration is that when it comes to the coyote trapline, baiting has been an acceptable practice for centuries. There's not much of a fair-chase implication there. It's not a great leap to apply trapping ethics to hunting ethics. Perhaps another example would be shooting rats at the dump. Is there any rules of fair chase being worried about there? Are there any fair-chase concerns when it comes to roach baits/traps? .......bug-spray? How about those mouse traps? Let's face it, we do pick and choose what rules we apply to each different species. That's why we hunt and trap coyotes but feed and house our pet dogs. Different species get different considerations from humans. And it doesn't always make perfect sense. I guess all that is pretty much what I had in my head... but i am specifically refurring to hunter mentality as it pertains to protected species... rats and bugs have no season and are disposed off as deemed necessary to eliminate distruction or invasion of personal property... coyotes are a game animal with specific rules and regs...I realize baiting them is legal... just don't understand why a responsible hunter would think baiting one game animal over not baiting another is acceptable. It's kind of like "as long as they tell me I can do it, I will, even if I don't think it's right or necessary". And I understand the trapline answer... but with traps you need to actually lure and get the animal into the trap... now you introduce a weapon that can reach out 100 or more yards... and the baiting issue becomes a questionable practice in my opinion. You are right.. most of what we do in the name of conservation doesn't make perfect sense either

Welcome aboard...

Looks like you've come to the right place.. welcome.

Thats kinda what I thought... even though I'm not sure why one animal is more important than the rest.

AHHH.. ok now i get it!

I know this might start a ruckus, but I'm curious what the differnece is between baiting coyotes and baiting deer... most hunters don't like the idea of baiting whitetails, but have no problem baiting coyotes. Be interesting to know why they feel one is better than the other when it comes to fair chase. not trying to cause trouble.. i am seriously curious.

Is apple scent bait then or not? What about acorn scent? Now you have me wondering...

Seriously though... I don't understand all the fighting over who gets to hunt when with what weapon... all the seasons seem fine to me.. I hunt them all and in both Northern and Southern zones... I deer hunt from Sept 27th (when I have a tag) until the last day of late muzzleloader... bow season, gun season, spear season, hammer season... 1 tag, 10 tags, 100 tags who cares??? It's all deer hunting and loads of fun as far as I'm concerned!

"just worry about you own hunting and enjoy the experience". Damn... I didn't have to use so many words... you said it with just one sentence!! ;D

Really? The money goes into the conservation fund, where it is used for Hunting related items, state land, etc. The problem with the conservation fund is if they didnt close that hole that would allow them to pull funds, but thats another topic. Buck, you are always so quick to respond and contradict others opinions. First you say the money goes to the conservation fund and used for hunting related items, then you say they pull the money out . That is what we are saying, where is the problem. The money we hunters pay doesn't always go where it's intended.Dave Do I really have to spell it out for you? I never said what you just said I did. What I was referring to is the loophole that they just created a month or so ago in the conservation fund. Currently, as far as anyone knows or has been announced or reported on, they have not used any of the Conservation fund money to go into the general fund. You said that the money doesnt go toward hunting related things, when in fact, it does. Get your facts straight and Ill stop correcting them. Like you always say prove it, show us where all the money spent on hunting licenses goes. List all the places the money goes and show the bottom line. Prove none of it is spent on things other than hunting related activities. I am sure you have the facts!! Dave Are you kidding me? You are completely unaware of what Pittman Robertson is, where the funding goes and what it is allowed to be used for? I suggest you start reading here... http://huntingny.com/forums/index.php/topic,5079.0.html Then continue with these... http://wildlifelaw.unm.edu/fedbook/pract.html http://www.fws.gov/laws/lawsdigest/FAWILD.HTML http://www.nrahq.org/shootingrange/pitmann.asp Then read this... http://www.dec.ny.gov/permits/54955.html If you want to find out more, do some searching on the DEC website and Google. Uhhh.. yep.. those would definitely be the facts alright... but somehow I think it won't quiet the noise any... good job though WNY...

I read you don't ML hunt ust curious if you gun hunt or just bow hunt? In some of the areas I hunt the intrusion of just the bow hunters in the woods alters the habits of deer. Just having your scent in a hunting area is pushing deer... most of the year the deer woods are absent of human scent.. during any hunting season that scent is increased dramatically and will also alter deer patterns... a man sitting in a treestand with a gun and a man sitting in a treestand with a bow are the same thing... if either misses a deer when he gets an opportunity that deer can be and will be alrmed just the same... if both men kill the deer the deer is dead just the same. You are assuming that gun hunters always walk and bow hunters always sit... but not true.. I know many bow hunters that walk and many more gun hunters that sit... Except for driving deer... which is usually done with guns... bow hunting and gun hunting can impose the same pressure on deer just walking in and out of the woods to your hunting spot.... many times you don't even know when you've scared off deer..

The reason I don't bitch about any of the extra hunting fees is because I don't believe that they are unreasonable yet.. given that gas has gone up over a dollar a gallon .. food prices have risen... my health insurance has risen by 50% in less than 18 months... those are the things more worth bitching about.. they are necessary to carry on day to day living.. Hunting and fishing are luxuries that I believe are cheap entertainment compared to everything else going on today and glady willing to pay the price. Hunting opportunities and bag limits have actually increased over the years as the cost got a bit higher... find another form of entertainment where that has happened...

He'll do!!!

I don't understand the money problem... the super sportsman is a deal at $100... big game, small game, turkey, muzzleloader, bow and fishing licenses.. averages out to less than $20 per license.. and the best part is you get a choice... you don't even have to buy a super sportsman... you can buy them individually... or not at all... name another form of entertainment that you get for that kind of money... for crying out loud you can't even watch TV for less than $500-$1000 per year... LOL.. a guy will spend $500 on a scentlok outfit.. $150 for boots... $1500 for a bow... and bitch about $10 more for a DMP... it's crazy I tell ya.. crazy!! Oh and the hardship case guy makes sure he has a $20 case of beer for when he and his buddies get done with the days hunt.