wolc123

My biggest problem with the nuisance permits is the waste of all the deer. It just seems to be a shame that so much fine, healthy meat is left out in the fields and hedgerows to rot. These are not "bark-eating", foul tasting big-woods deer we are talking about. The meat from cropland deer tastes as good as beef and is better for you. A solution to the problem might be to educate the public on the health benefits of venison (it should not be difficult with all the interest in "organic" foods lately) and legalize the sale of venison taken on nuisance permits. That would give the farmers an extra source of income and eliminate the waste. It would also make it easier for the DEC to regulate the number of deer killed, and make it easier to maintain optimum populations. The way it is going currently, the nuisance permits give the farmers the right to use a rifle at night to kill deer. Most of the deer they shoot are not tagged, and just left to scavengers or to rot where they fall. A farmer might only be issued 5 permits, but there is no limit to the number of deer he "misses".

What do you suppose it cost the farmer to produce that $10 bushel of corn? Not including equipment costs, my input cost works out to about 25 cents per bushel. I am saving some money on seed, but he has a big advantage of scale with 12 row equipment compared to my two-row stuff. If it were not for government regulations forcing the use of so much corn to burn as ethanol, then he could make that corn a lot cheaper, and you could probably buy it for $ 5 a bushel. All I am doing is "eliminating the middle man". More importantly, there is a big difference in growing corn to sell and growing it to attract deer. My 100 bu/acre stuff, which contains some weeds between the rows, where I intentionally "go wide" with the planter (to allow grassy bedding areas to form) or where the cultivator shovels miss some, is a lot more attractive to deer than "clean" 200 bu/acre stuff that most farmers aim for. Their livelihood depends on squeezing every bit of yield possible out of their limited tillable acreage. They profit from that "clean" corn being less attractive to deer, which is why they go heavy on the herbicides. Even if I included the equipment costs (I could get by with just my old 8n, a plow, a disk, a planter, a sprayer, and a cultivator), it would add up to about $ 70 more per year. That brings my cost per bushel up to 41 cents. As a strict meat-hunter, I determine food plot effectiveness by calculating the cost of boneless venison per pound after subtracting input costs. I only include the deer taken in and adjacent to the plots for these calculations. $1.00 per pound is the target I usually aim to beat. ps (for DOC): As far as my time spent working on foodplots, I value that significantly higher than my time spent playing golf and just slightly less than my time spent hunting or fishing. As I mentioned earlier, that time involves all of the good stuff that you get from farming and very little of the bad.

It is hard to imagine that the deer hunting could get much better than it is now in NY state for us meat hunters. A couple little tweaks, that might make things a touch better, would be full inclusion of the crossbow, and a third buck tag for those of us who purchase a gun, archery, and ML licences. Maybe we will see one or both of those within the next 100 years.

If that is the case, I hope he tastes more like his momma than his poppa. I don't care for the flavor of mule deer, it tastes a little too much like sage brush for me.

It looks like that whitetail has a little mule blood in him.

The costs really start to favor the venison, when you factor in the additional open heart surgeries, and medications required to support a heavy beef diet. Old farm equipment is cheap compared to medical expenses these days. What price can you put on getting to spend a few more healthy years hanging out with your grandchildren ? My input costs (not including tractors and equipment) was less than $100 for 4 acres of corn last year and this year, including fuel (aprox $50), fertilizer ($40) and herbicide ($5). Last year's 4 acres yielded (6) deer including (2) 2-1/2 year old bucks, one 1-1/2, (2) mature does and (1) button buck. My neighbor to the east killed the 1-1/2 buck (which he kept), right after it stepped out of my smaller corn plot and our neighbor to the west shot a 2-1/2 buck (which he kept) and a doe (which he gave to us) on the other edge of my larger corn plot (both expired inside of it). I am not sure how much the neighbor's put in their freezers (the 1-1/2 buck was tiny - only slightly larger than the button buck that I kept), but we ended up with well over 100 pounds in our freezer from the (4) that we kept from home. When added to a doe and a buck, from up in the Northern zone, that made for a record year. Even including ammunition and licence fees, our venison came in at well under $1.00 per pound last year. You are correct that food plot equipment could greatly increase that cost. I bought a one-owner 8n for $1200 about 30 years ago and still use that for lots of food plot work. I also paid more than I did for our house on a new 4wd diesel tractor that came in very handy getting the corn in on this muddy spring. I don't include the cost of that stuff in my venison cost calculations because it is needed for property maintenance anyhow.

4 acres should last me thru the end of Southern Zone late ML season, if I can control the coons. They will wipe out small plots in a hurry, but fortunately are about the easiest fur-bearer there is to trap. I am going to start digging holes as soon as the corn starts to tassle (NY state DEC requires burying or burning the carcasses of crop-damaging coons taken before trapping season opens). 4 acres made it that far for me last year, even with the record drought we had last summer.

Cash

That is always my second largest input cost. I can usually get by with just a light application of 15-15-15 starter along the rows with the planter. Most of the nitrogen needed for decent yields is banked in the soil from old white clover plots. Corn is the heavy hitter, when it comes to putting meat in the freezer, but 3/4 of my plot acreage is always in clover. That also feeds the deer at night (they don't like to leave the cover of the corn by day after the guns start going off). Eliminating the need for lots of synthetic fertilizer, thanks to all that clover, also eliminates the need for lime. My herbicide cost is minimized by applying it only on the corn rows, where the fertilizer also goes and where the weeds would otherwise grow the thickest. Finally, I have not paid for any corn seed since we got rid of the cattle. I cultivate, but use no herbicide between the corn rows, planted at 36" width. That enables the clover to bounce back on it's own, the year after the corn, often without the need to reseed.

Prayers sent.

A problem that I see with bagged corn, is that it does not come with the free "cover" like you get from the stalks on a food plot. That might make filling them tags a little tougher. On good years , my boneless venison costs under $1.00 per pound, after subtracting all food plot input costs. You are on track on one point though, fuel is usually my biggest cost. Not so bad this year though, with off-road diesel back under $2.00 per gallon.

I consider food plotting to be better than baiting for many reasons. The most important one is that it is legal in NY state. A close second, is that it is a very cost-effective way of putting meat in the freezer and that is always my biggest concern. Also important, is the fact that corn-fed venison tastes great and is very good for you. I can grow corn cheaper than I can buy it, so why would I ever want to bait ? Our family raised beef on our farm for many generations, starting before the Civil war. That was hard work and seldom profitable. There was some fun involved though, and food-plotting for deer maintains all of that, but gets rid of the bad stuff. Ain't it wonderful, that the deer harvest the crops and care for themselves year round. No more rushing to get hay in before the rain, dealing with stuck tractors and combines during wet fall harvests, frozen water in the winter, vets, etc.. Do I consider food plotting baiting? Definitely not, because it is legal and cheaper. I do wonder why anyone would want to bait. It must be some combination of lazyness and stupidity. Heck, I don't even use bait for fish. That is also expensive.

The cardio is a good idea, and it really helps out for some deer hunting situations. I never worried about it too much, until I started hunting the Adirondacks about 10 years ago. The first few years up there, I found out how out of shape I was, and how much different that was than shooting a deer out of a stand on the flat-lands at home. About 4 years ago, I added some cardio to my workouts. Except for one little hick-up (2) years ago (more on that later), it has made hunting up there a lot easier and more enjoyable. Low-impact stuff is a great idea, and that will minimize risk of joint issues and arthritis when you get older. With a bad knee, that is especially important for you. Rowing machine, stationary bike, and swimming are some low-impact cardio methods that I now use regularly, before and after work, during the week. On weekends, I try and mix in some "fun" stuff like mountain biking, road biking, ice skating, snowshowing, and cross-country skiing, depending on the season and weather conditions. I eliminated the treadmill, after suffering from some sciatica issues shortly after starting that, and I would suggest that you also steer clear of those. (2) years ago, I was hobbled up pretty good thru hunting season. Thankfully, that sciatica went away shortly after I gave up on the treadmill, and started some new leg-stretching exercises. It is hard to exaggerate how much easier it is to kill a deer up in the mountains, when you can move thru them easily on foot without pain. I see about (4) deer up there while walking for every one that I see while standing or seated.

If you are north of the escarpment, then rocks should not be an issue and truckersdaddy's suggestion would work ok. Just go over it a few times with the bushhog to chop everything up fine, then till it in. A spring harrow is good for taking out weeds from previously tilled soil, but not so hot at ripping out roots from untilled ground. It might work for raking off brush, but would be a pain to clear, unlike a york rake, which would quickly dump clean at the end of every pass.

Wow, that ^^ is a lot of water for this time of year. Our place in western NY looks like that many years in the spring, but not too often in the mid-summer. We just got back from our annual VA beach summer vacation where the place I usually get my turnip seeds was sold out. Fortunately, Rinehart's in Middleport had them for $3.50 a pound, so I picked up some there, plus some wheat ($8.00 per 50 pound bag), white clover ($4.50 per pound), and a few $9.00 bags of 10-20-20 fertilizer. I was able to plow down some old clover for a turnip plot yesterday and the moisture content in the soil was just about perfect for real easy plowing. I also sprayed gly on one of last year's corn plots, that I had bushed-hogged a few weeks ago. After the weeds brown up in a couple weeks, I will disk that spot up to get it ready for a fresh wheat/soybean/white clover mix plot around mid August. I hope to get the turnip plot in by the end of July, but that might slip to early August depending on rains. My 2-1/2 corn plot, which is on well drained ground is looking especially good this year, but there is a little standing water on my smaller, low-lying, poorly drained, 1-1/2 acre plot. I did the same thing last season, and that low, small plot turned out to be the bigger producer in the record drought we had. If we keep getting so much rain, that smaller plot that did so good last year might be a bust. I always try and have some plots on ground that holds moisture well and on ground that drains well (it is tough to find both together). It usually pays off to have all your bases covered because the weather is seldom predictable, and the computer age has done nothing to help long-range weather forecasting. I am always amazed that way back in 1944, IKE was able to learn when a small window of good weather would occur, allowing for the beach invasion of fortress Europe, over a week in advance. Today they can't seem to tell if it will rain or if the wind will blow hard, or from what direction, later on the same day.

My great, great grandfather built a 36 ft wide X 46 ft long post and beam barn in 1883 (the year is cut into the siding on the front just below the peak), and another one a few years prior to that. The roofs are failing on them now, and the foundations are in rough shape, from years of poor drainage on low-lying ground. I am in the process of tearing down the older one now, which is in worse shape. If I can salvage enough materials from it to shore up the newer "1883" one, I may put a roof on it, and try to get a few more years out of it.

My plans are to spend any free time that I get up there this summer, and early fall, out on or in the lake and NOT in the woods. That will apply until after we get a few good hard frosts. The reason for that is: I am scared of ticks and the Lyme disease that they carry. I picked over a hundred of them off from a buck that I killed up on the NW corner of the Adirondack park last Thanksgiving weekend. After the last "global warming" non-winter that we just had, they are bound to be even worse this year. Fortunately, those ticks are easy to catch and kill and not very active when it get's cold. Spring turkey hunters, summer deer scouters, hikers and bird-watchers should take adequate precautions however. As for me, I would much prefer spending my time fishing or swimming (I don't think ticks can swim). That beats the heck out of dousing myself and/or my clothes with chemicals and heading into the woods. Now that my in-laws have moved up there, I should never again need to bring a tick-infested deer carcass home to process. I found a place up there, about a 40 minute drive from their house, that will skin them, hang them in a cooler for 7 to 10 days, cut them up, and freezer wrap for just $45. They did an excellent job of trimming the fat from a doe that I dropped off during the early ML season up there last year. I was able to wait for that one, because I killed it early on a 10 day hunt. No such luck on the buck however, killed on the second last day of my hunt. Usually I process my own (I am very fussy about temperature control and trimming the fat), but $ 45 is well worth it for me, just for not having to worry about bringing the ticks home.

The OP is most likely referring to the personal attacks, which run rampant on this, and many other forums. As a Bible-thumping meat-hunter, I have been attacked here plenty, by both trophy hunters and by folks who believe that Jesus Christ has no place on a hunting forum. I appreciate that the moderators let those attacks go mostly unchecked. Those personal attacks always show me that what we have here is a "target-rich" environment, when it comes to lost souls. I can't think of many pursuits, except maybe fishing, that position folks better to absorb God's grace than hunting. If those lost folks would consider putting Jesus Christ first, who happens to control the fate of all living things (including animals and fish), they might be surprised at how much better their hunting gets. Regular (daily) Bible reading is a good place to start. Doing things for others, and putting their needs ahead of your own, is a good way to continue. Skipping a few Sunday morning hunts for a Church service with your family is also not such a bad idea. p.s. I do not refer to "trophy-hunters" as "lost" . It is ok with me for folks to hunt for different reasons. I appreciate them especially, because the smaller-antlered and younger deer that they pass may very well be the ones that the Good Lord blesses my family with. Happy hunting everyone.

Good question. On rare occasion, they chew off a few stalks, soon after they sprout. For the most part, they don't touch them. Deer are extremely efficient consumers of field corn. On our farm, they usually wait for it to get ripe and dry (mid to late October), then eat all the seeds from each cob, before starting the next one. They leave the shucked cobs right there on the stalks, with the husks neatly peeled back. I listened to a buck do that in early November last year. I was in my elevated blind, on the down-wind edge of the plot. When his vitals cleared the corn, I put my arrow thru them. I used all of my senses on that one, before and after the kill. As he approached, I got a real good whiff of that "rutty" smell, and I got to feel the warmth of the guts in my hands when I ripped them out after he fell. In contrast to deer, raccoons are the most destructive and least efficient users of corn that I know of. They knock down the stalks, and start nibbling the end of the field corn cobs, just as it starts to ripen (they hit sweetcorn about a week before it is ripe). Other critters (such as wild turkeys and squirrels) clean up the knocked-down stuff, but leave it alone otherwise. I once thought that the turkeys were the culprits hammering my corn, but it turns out that they only eat it when the coons knock it down for them. Fortunately, NY state allows land owners to trap and kill coons that are causing damage, and the coon is about the easiest fur-bearer that there is to trap. They do require that the carcasses be buried or burned if taken prior to the opening of trapping season (I suppose to reduce the spread of diseases like rabies, mange, and distemper). By aggressively trapping coons, starting at the end of the summer, I can get by with a lot less acreage of field corn, and still have it last well into hunting season. Back in the days of high fur prices, trappers and hunters, did a very good job of controlling the coon population. Now it is all up to me, coyotes, rabies, and distemper. I can usually create a "coon-free" zone, by the end of archery season, using a combination of box traps, baited with peanut-butter coated marshmellos and dog-proof "beer can" style traps with a little cat food in the bottom. This year, I am hoping my 4-1/2 acres will again make it all the way thru the end of late ML season. The same acreage just barely made it last year, with my neighbor killing a nice 2-1/2 year old 8-point buck on the last day of ML last year, on the edge of my larger plot (it expired right in the center of the plot). That was in spite of the worst drought we have had in more than 50 years last summer. I have not yet secured next years RR corn seed, so I am hoping that I can harvest and shuck a few bushels over the Christmas break this year, to use for next year's spring planting. That should not be a problem, judging by all the rain we have been getting so far, and I fertilized a little heavier this year. I did an experiment with some RR corn that had passed about half way thru a buck a couple years ago. Two little piles were all that remained of the gut pile after a week or so. I planted (10) seeds in a tomato flat. Not a single one sprouted. I will definitely test the germination of any that I harvest from the cobs and shuck myself this winter, prior to planting. I have heard of other folks who have done ok planting it, and they say it even carries the RR trait (I will test that also). Usually I can gather enough free, leftover RR corn seed, for my own use, from friends and relatives but they have not come up with enough yet. That stuff always germinates real well, even if I have stored it on a shelf in the basement for up to 5 years.

There are many reasons why I would prefer killing any buck over a doe, not the least of which is that does always take me longer to process. I don't like that doe fat that tends to stick to the roof of my mouth after cooking, so I spend a lot more time trimming it away. On average, I can usually have a buck processed and ready for the freezer almost twice as fast. Also, you got nothing left, years after a doe harvest, while all those buck racks, shoulder mounts and euro's instantly bring back all the good memories of hunts long ago. Even in pictures, does all look the same. I understand the importance of killing the does in overpopulated areas, and that, and the fact that two deer is not enough to feed my family, are the only reasons that I will continue killing does. I miss the days when a dmp could be used on a buck, and I don't understand why NY state won't give us a third buck tag if we purchase a ML, archery, and gun licence. Bucks are a renewable resource, and I would take any 1-1/2 year old buck over any doe, any day, if I had the choice. I won't complain too much about the way the DEC has been handling things however. It is hard to imagine things being much better for the meat hunter, than they are right now, in NY state. Last season my boneless venison cost me less than $1.00 per pound after subtracting all input costs. To the trophy hunters, I would recommend a move to one of the other 49 states that might do better in that regard.

^ That there looks like some good eating.

We have a couple thirteen year old daughters here right now (one will be turning fourteen in about a month) who are also into sports and have had some injuries and illnesses, so I know what you are going thru. The good news is, those prayers work, so here goes one for her full recovery.

Last season I killed a 1-1/2 year old doe prior to November 1, up in zone 6C, and an older one after, down in zone 9F. Therefore, my tally on deer abortions should have been less than (2). Since I am very pro-life, I am not being hypocritical when I have some feelings of regret for killing does after November 1. My regret is selfish, knowing that I will never get to taste the button bucks or 2-1/2 year bucks someday, that she may have produced. When hunting at home in zone 9F, I do my duty every time I can, when I have a tag and a 90% or better shot at killing a doe, for one reason only: I value human life a lot more than deer. A gross overpopulation of deer is not a good thing for humans. Does are significantly harder to kill here in 9F than antlered bucks, so I seldom fill all my tags (anyone can kill up to up to (9) does here, with (4) dmp tags, (2) transferred dmp tags, an either sex bow/ML, and an antlerless only bow/ML tag, and a gun buck tag that turns into an either sex tag during late ML season). When my buck tags are spent, and our venison supply is secure, I always loose most of my ambition to hunt, which does not help the situation much. I will try harder this year, because just last week, my good friend and coworker swerved to avoid a deer, then rolled and totaled his car. He is ok, and fortunately his 8 month pregnant wife was not in the car at the time. Deer are responsible for more human deaths and injuries in this country than any other animal. A driver was killed just a few miles from my house a few years ago when a deer came thru his windshield. The situation is much different in the Northern zone, so I do understand your reluctance to shoot doe after November 1 up there. In the part of it where I hunt (6C), they only give you a DMP with two preferences, so I could not kill more than one doe every three years after Nov 1, even if I wanted to. The one I killed up there with my ML last season, and another the same way about 4 years prior are the only two I have taken up there, so no northern zone deer abortions for me yet.

I will try one more time. Do you kill does after the rut ? If so, why is that ok, but killing button bucks or 1-1/2 year old bucks is bad ? Killing a single button buck or 1-1/2 year old removes just one "future trophy", while killing that mature doe often removes two or more, depending on her age.

What about killing does after the rut ? Does that bother you at all ? Have you done much of that ? It does not bother me too much while hunting in overpopulated zones (such as 9F where I live).