WNYBuckHunter

I almost forgot, progress report. lol I got one of the cabinets out, had a bitch of a time as half of the screws had stripped heads, so had some drilling and cutting to do. I have been swampped at home all week, so all I got done was to get the floor dried out. The second cabinet should be coming out this weekend, and Ill be trimming the floor and prepping for the epoxy resin.

Culver, already been looking at some of the newer types of OSB out there, and thats what I plan on using. I am going to be cutting out whatever is shot and installing patch panels, then Ill be using a thinned out epoxy resin product in all of the areas that have any minor water damage to make sure that they never have an issue. The stuff basically wicks into the wood and sets up, bonding the fibers together permanently, and turning it into a more durable material. You can sand it, paint it, drill it, screw into it, whatever you need to do. Its used alot in boat repair and historical building preservation. I have decided also, that I will be installing a flooring product called Allure, its basically a vinyl/laminate hybrid in that it goes together like a laminate floor, looks like a laminate floor, but is made of a layered vinyl and is 100% waterproof. Im laying down a cherry color/pattern that should look very nice. I am also planning on doing the bathroom with it, and possibly the rest of the trailer. Dave, I got the trailer for about 1/4 of the low retail price, and should have less than $500 into the repairs themselves. Ill have more than that into the list of modifications I am doing to it though, probably another $1000, so the price I paid, plus the repairs and mods, and I should still be able to double my money when I sell it. Once I take that step, I will be able to pick up exactly what we want in a camper, but with how I am Ill end up finding some great deal on one that is more than we really need, Ill just have to put some work into it lol. I just hope I dont go overboard and end up needing to buy a full size truck to tow with.

Its a 24 footer from bumper to tongue, and a 21 foot box. To cover the whole thing with the Eternabond tape would be pretty pricey at $60 for a 50 foot roll that is only 4 inches wide and would need to be over lapped lol. Ill be giving it a good cleaning and coating it with an elastomeric compound called Kool Seal. Its basically liquid rubber. Just the seams were leaking, but with the roof being 12 years old, the extra coating wont hurt.

Reporting is mandatory it's just that most don't do it.. and why would you want to eliminate one species of animal over another?.. What coyotes do is natural for them... they are predators... predation is what they do... it's part of mother natures plan... mother nature doesn't care if we have enough deer for our freezer... any marked decline or increase in deer populations is directly the result of overhunting or under hunting a particular area. Im pretty sure he means mandatory reporting of all tags, even if they did not get used.

Wow, ok Ill reply one by one. 1- I think you are misunderstanding what the term "5 Year Plan" means. It means that the DEC would like to implement all of the points within 5 years. It does not mean that each implementation would only last 5 years, and yes, the plan will have a reach much further than 5 years. 2- Successful CWD containment? How many deer were found with CWD, and where were they from? The answer is 2 deer, from the same herd that most likely came into contact with captive deer in the area. They have lifted the "containment area", so there is no need to do anything other than continue testing harvested animals. 3 - I dont have an opinion on that one. 4 - You are contradicting yourself, and Im sorry but your statement doesnt add up. You would continue to allow the uncontrolled harvest of antlerless deer for a month (early bow season), but try to control it for a week (late ml season)? see my last reply to Dave for why I disagree. 5 - When you purchase(d) a lifetime, they did not guarantee any DMPs, they said you wouldnt have to pay for your entry to draw. The people granfathered would get the same tags as someone who pays each year, they just wouldnt have to pay for their DMPs. I havent heard this from DEC, but common sense would say that is the way they would do it. 6 - I dont agree with you on this. They are concerned over antlerless tags given out, and controlling the number of them. That in no way means that bow season shouldnt be expanded. 7 - This is a Deer plan, not a Bear plan. Whats your point? 8 - There is no mandatory orange in gun season now, whats the difference? 9 - Its not a youth bear hunt or big game hunt, its a youth deer hunt. Cant be much more clear than that. 10 - How much more do you want them to explain it? They have been clear that it will ONLY be implemented in areas where normal DMPs are not getting the job done. It would have to be implemented year to year and zone by zone or by specific area within a zone. 11 - Agreed. 12 - No opinion. My rebuttal 1. Why even implement this plan at all until all the studies are done? The studies are supposed to take at least 5 years to complete, by then the DEC will be on to their new plan. 2. They still dont state this anywhere in the plan. Do they just plan to drop the testing for CWD altogether? 4. Archers take an insignificant # of antlerless deer on these tags according to the DEC so if its insignificant why eliminate it? 5.Common sense says never assume anything. Especially with the DEC. They need to make this clear in their plan. 6. I'm just stating that their plan contradicts itself. I'm all for expanding archery. Just seems like they dont really know what they want to do or why. 7. My point on this is will youths be able to shoot a Bear during the youth season? Need clarification on this in the plan. 8. The difference now would be gun hunters in the woods hunting deer during archery is dangerous and mandatory orange should be in the plan but its not. Seems like safety is taking a back seat in this plan. 9. see 7 10. In their own plan of improving antlerless management in high deer density areas it is the third option. Why not try the first 2 options first? Bonus DMP's and antlerless only days during bow? While I'm not a proponent of the second one, the bonus DMP's option could very well work just as good as an early ML season without all of the opposition. 11. WOW, we agree on something! Remember, this is supposed to be a plan for the deer herd in NY not just whats good for you. Hey, its good to have someone to debate with that doesnt agree alot, but can debate in a ball busting, yet non-temper tantrum type of way! ;D My re-rebuttal... 1 - Im pretty sure the plan is the result of studies that have been and will continue to be ongoing. 2 - I dont know. My guess is they may cut it back some, but will continue to monitor it. 4 - We arent just talking bow here, you have ML as well, and x-bows are coming into the mix. Its as good a time as any to get a better grasp on it. 5 - Agreed, I was just giving my best guess. Im sure they will clarify many things before the plan is put into place. 6 - Its most likely due to the bowhunters incessant asking for the season to be expanded, plus maybe the DEC is trying to fall in line with most of the other state's seasons. 7 - Again, its not a bear hunting plan, why would they address youth bear hunting in it? 8 - There are already hunters with guns in the woods during bow season, and some bow hunters in the woods during gun season as it is. There are no laws mandating blaze orange now in any season, and I dont believe we need to have any put into place. Just my opinion. 9 - See 7 10 - If they stick to the plan, it wont get implemented very often or in very many areas. Other than more dead deer, the effects will probably be minimal. Bows just arent as effective and MLs dont cause the same type of disturbance as do regular guns with wide spread drives and 5 shot barrages. 11 - It can happen lol I didnt make the plan, its just that I agree with alot of it, I also disgree with some and have no opinion on other things. You should heed your own advice.

Wouldn't it be better for the DEC and the Hunters to kill both the deer and coyotes. Surprised the DEC is giving the yotes a free pass. Yotes have anything but a free pass.Take a peek at how long the season is, and what you are allowed to use to take them. Its pretty close to an open season as is. Id love them to open them all year though.

I agree. I firmly believe that it will be used as a temporary fix to bring the herd in line when it needs to be, in the areas it needs to be used. Once crossbows are in the mix, bow season will become effective enough for it to do what they want. It will not be nearly as effective as gun season, but certainly more so than it is now.

Im sure they already are.

Do you think that bow hunters could increase their percentage by 25%. I know it was just an example but still? I am separating out the ML hunters by the way, I think that they should be included with Regular season numbers as they are guns and therefore much more effective. Its possible, but even a 10% increase could hurt the herd. Remeber too, crossbows are going to come into the mix, so the archery season is going to become more efficient, and numbers of participants is going to go up.

Thanks Culver. Yeah its a serious pain to get it back off again. It would be a much faster and easier job with 2 people for the long strips.

I always do. That 9000 isnt much if you are looking at statewide numbers, but break it down by zone and the story very well may be different. If they want 400 does taken out of a specific area, but there is an influx of bow/ml hunters that year, and 600 does are taken, that could be a serious problem for that area.

So go hunt the coyotes and bears, dont just sit around and piss and moan they are there. If you dont understand what your area's carrying apacity is, and you dont shoot does, you are hurting your herd. BTW, by "your area's carrying capacity", I dont mean your property, I mean the whole area that the herd covers.

Like I have said before, it has to be done by zone, you cannot have a state wide system and use state wide numbers. They need to control the number of does taken in each zone, the only way to attempt it is to hand permits out by zone, like they are talking about doing. DEC figures in natural mortality rates, vehicle kills, birth rates, etc already. Yes, our state is broke, and the most cost effective, best way to improve upon the current system is to go to a total DMP based system and eliminate the either sex tags. Any other way would cost too much. Im stepping off of the soap box on this one, if you guys cant understand the logic, you never will.

Doe, if they know the numbers than leave the bow tags alone. Adjust the DMP with the gun season.Dave What happens when people start using more either sex as antlerless in the area? There is no way of controlling the antlerless take without specifying what permits are used where. What you are describing is how the current system is carried out, and its not working very well. It hgas to change or things are only going to get worse.

Yep, thats what they do now, like Doe said. They will just be able to get a better handle on it with the new system. Thats all that its about.

Hmmmm, youd be willing to break the law to harvest deer because your family need the meat, which you say you cant afford, but you dont take advantage of every opportunity to go get that meat.

Actually this is probably the biggest issue. Hunters want MORE deer, while the DEC want LESS. My hunch is that their preference will always win out and then the DEC will occasionally try to come up with different methods to cut down on the total kill only to make hunters think that they are doing something to bring deer back. This of course will just be a cover-up. They want deer killed, there is no doubt about that, but also desperately want license sales, so they have to make it look like they are doing something for the hunters benefit just to keep them buying. As the song says, "MONEY makes the world go around". I dont think the DEC is trying to wipe deer out or cut numbers to the point where hunter attrition gets worse. Hunter's dollars are their bread and butter, and a very large part of why they exist to begin with. I dont think they are stupid enough to cut their own throats. Just because Joe hunter thinks he isnt seeing enough deer doesnt mean that more deer in his area would be good for the deer themselves. The way things are now is obvioulsy not working, you hear it all the time on this site and others "I dont see any deer in my area" or "DEC over issues DMPs for my area", but when it comes time that the DEC does something about it, but cutting the antlerless harvest so that more deer can live that season, the same guys cry that they cant kill more deer. Bottom line, if the herd is screwed up, it needs fixed. If the numbers are too low, throwing antlerless tags to everyone is not the answer.

The DMP system isnt controlled by statewide stats, its zone specific. How would they be able to control the numbers of antlerless deer taken in specific zones without specifying where the antlerless tag can be used?

Personally, Im not really against it. The AR part doesnt affect me, and I have no opinion on it, as I do not hunt the areas it is proposed for, and I dont know what the herd is like there. That leaves me affected by 5 main things. One being crossbows expanded into bow season, which I agree with. Two is the restructuring of DMPs, and I agree that better control of DMPs is most likely going to be a move toward better herd management. Three is the youth weekend, and I am for it. Fourth is the likelyhood that the area I mostly hunt will be one that gets the early ML season. I could do without that, but the 5th thing is an Oct 1 bow opener, which I feel is great, so it pretty much balances out my feeling on the early ML. Buck , the restructuring of the DMP's they have had DMP forever and they still can't get it right. What makes you think they will have a handle on it this time around? MY problem is they should have introduced mandatory reporting that would have been a step in the right direction. Only my humble opinion.Dave Ive long wondered why I have to go through a lottery to get doe tags when they just hand me one with my bow/ml tag. It just didnt make sense to me. The new plan with DMPs make sense to me and IMO is a step in the direction toward better herd managament. I agree on the mandatory reporting, but how would that help with proper allocation of DMPs? They still wouldnt have control over how many does are shot in a particular zone, when anyone that holds an either sex tag can go there and shoot a doe. Buck, they would as long as they report when and where the deer was taken. Then next year they can make adjustments to how many DMP to issue in that area. Lets say they found that too many doe were taken by bow in a particular DMU then they would adjust the DMP to compensate for that and issue DMP for bow only like we do for gun season.Dave That still doesnt give them control over the antlerless harvest. Ok, let me explain it better.... You have unit X, which has a carrying capacity of 10,000 deer, the DEC estimates the current herd to be 12,000 deer, with 5000 being bucks. The average harvest rate for bucks in this area is 500. Therefore, they need to reduce the number of deer by 4000 to get it back within carrying capacity (take into account new born deer, survival rates, etc). That means they need 3500 antlerless deer taken. Now, with the possibility of any bow/ml hunter in the state being able to take an antlerless deer in that zone, how can they even guess at how many antlerless deer will be taken and figure out how many other DMPs to give out? Under the new plan, they would know exactly how many DMPs are given out in zone X before any hunting starts each year because they know how many deer they want taken, and an approximate success rate of DMPs. This of course, would be the most accurate if all kills are reported, so mandatory reporting would make it even better.

Wow, ok Ill reply one by one. 1- I think you are misunderstanding what the term "5 Year Plan" means. It means that the DEC would like to implement all of the points within 5 years. It does not mean that each implementation would only last 5 years, and yes, the plan will have a reach much further than 5 years. 2- Successful CWD containment? How many deer were found with CWD, and where were they from? The answer is 2 deer, from the same herd that most likely came into contact with captive deer in the area. They have lifted the "containment area", so there is no need to do anything other than continue testing harvested animals. 3 - I dont have an opinion on that one. 4 - You are contradicting yourself, and Im sorry but your statement doesnt add up. You would continue to allow the uncontrolled harvest of antlerless deer for a month (early bow season), but try to control it for a week (late ml season)? see my last reply to Dave for why I disagree. 5 - When you purchase(d) a lifetime, they did not guarantee any DMPs, they said you wouldnt have to pay for your entry to draw. The people granfathered would get the same tags as someone who pays each year, they just wouldnt have to pay for their DMPs. I havent heard this from DEC, but common sense would say that is the way they would do it. 6 - I dont agree with you on this. They are concerned over antlerless tags given out, and controlling the number of them. That in no way means that bow season shouldnt be expanded. 7 - This is a Deer plan, not a Bear plan. Whats your point? 8 - There is no mandatory orange in gun season now, whats the difference? 9 - Its not a youth bear hunt or big game hunt, its a youth deer hunt. Cant be much more clear than that. 10 - How much more do you want them to explain it? They have been clear that it will ONLY be implemented in areas where normal DMPs are not getting the job done. It would have to be implemented year to year and zone by zone or by specific area within a zone. 11 - Agreed. 12 - No opinion.

Personally, Im not really against it. The AR part doesnt affect me, and I have no opinion on it, as I do not hunt the areas it is proposed for, and I dont know what the herd is like there. That leaves me affected by 5 main things. One being crossbows expanded into bow season, which I agree with. Two is the restructuring of DMPs, and I agree that better control of DMPs is most likely going to be a move toward better herd management. Three is the youth weekend, and I am for it. Fourth is the likelyhood that the area I mostly hunt will be one that gets the early ML season. I could do without that, but the 5th thing is an Oct 1 bow opener, which I feel is great, so it pretty much balances out my feeling on the early ML. Buck , the restructuring of the DMP's they have had DMP forever and they still can't get it right. What makes you think they will have a handle on it this time around? MY problem is they should have introduced mandatory reporting that would have been a step in the right direction. Only my humble opinion.Dave Ive long wondered why I have to go through a lottery to get doe tags when they just hand me one with my bow/ml tag. It just didnt make sense to me. The new plan with DMPs make sense to me and IMO is a step in the direction toward better herd managament. I agree on the mandatory reporting, but how would that help with proper allocation of DMPs? They still wouldnt have control over how many does are shot in a particular zone, when anyone that holds an either sex tag can go there and shoot a doe.

Nice. Looking forward to seeing some pics of a deer or three that you put down with it.

I really do not see what the fuss is all about. Which way do you guys want it? More deer or less deer? Currently the DEC has no way to control the antlerless take, as every one that buys a bow and/or ML tag automatically gets an antlerless tag. Then you guys piss and moan about not being able to draw a DMP in that zone. How is DEC supposed to hand out a number of DMPs that is really best for the zone? Really, the ONLY change for you will be that you have to apply for your DMPs and use them during bow. If you dont get one, that means that the antlerless numbers in that area are too low for you to be killing them. If their plan is carried out properly, within a few years you will have a larger herd, with more DMPs available. Herd health has to be taken into consideration, as it has a direct effect on hunter satisfaction. If you have to make sacrifices for a season or two, then thats what has to be done. If you dont, then just go ahead and keep depleting the herd in your area so you can yell at the DEC some more about why theres no deer.

Personally, Im not really against it. The AR part doesnt affect me, and I have no opinion on it, as I do not hunt the areas it is proposed for, and I dont know what the herd is like there. That leaves me affected by 5 main things. One being crossbows expanded into bow season, which I agree with. Two is the restructuring of DMPs, and I agree that better control of DMPs is most likely going to be a move toward better herd management. Three is the youth weekend, and I am for it. Fourth is the likelyhood that the area I mostly hunt will be one that gets the early ML season. I could do without that, but the 5th thing is an Oct 1 bow opener, which I feel is great, so it pretty much balances out my feeling on the early ML.