send letters for crossbows in NY

[nyantler]

I'm all for bringing in anything new to add the arsenal... be another first getting a nice buck with a crossbow.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I got what you were saying the first time...you took his statement and carried a progression implying that guns would be even better so why not do that too. I got it. It is a stretch...a big one in my opinion.

I am not sure if the addition of crossbows would bring any new hunters in. It might not, but if more hunters were involved in a larger portion of the available seasons the hunting presence would be stronger. if it only added 1/2 of one percent to the number of hunters I think it would be worth it. Any addition or cross over would be better than the direction we are headed now.

I have said it before and I think it may have been in this thread pages and pages back. Dad and Uncle and a close friend can't pull a bow and I also have a very good friend that can't take the cold and also suffer physical problems that make it so he can't draw a bow. That is 3 cross overs and one re-addition right there. I find it hard to believe that my situation is so unique that no others exist.

I clearly remember your position on this but I also see you commenting and showing a genuine concern for our falling numbers. I was simply asking how you reconcile the two in your thoughts.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Doc, substituting the word gun for the word crossbow in that statement is NOT what I said. I never said that I think "that deer hunting weapons should be changed to minimize the need for practice", I said crossbows should be allowed in archery season. Whats your point?  Like I said, you are just trying to make what I said into something it wasnt and isnt. You sure have a twisted way of looking at things. You say that you hold people to the letter of what they said and then start an argument based on what could be substituted into what they said. Which way is it? Are you sure you dont vote Democrat? 

Well then I guess all that drivel about allowing the substitution a more efficient weapon for those that don't devote required time to their bows for practice was just meaningless garbage that you really don't believe in. Or maybe it is just a worthless argument that only goes as far as your fanatical promotion of crossbows in bow seasons. I suspect both are true and that was exactly the point that I was getting at.

Wow, you just keep trying to get me to say gun inclusion in archery season is what I want, dont you? I never said that, have never wanted that and you know it. Stop trying to argue a statement I never made, or insinuate that I said something I didnt. The only meaningless garbage is your twisting of my statement and words by adding or substituting words to it.

[WNYBuckHunter]

yeah Doc....we ALL got you on that. Everyone is following you. NYAntler hit is right on the head and I understood what WNY was saying...most probably did. You are taking it to the extreme...well beyond his intention. I understood is voicing his frustration with some hunters that walk into the woods unprepared....not mater what we do they will be among us. I agree with WNY that since the prep time for the crossbow was less than with a vertical bow, there m ight be less likelihood that an animal would be wounded.

We all understand your position on the crossbow and it NOT being included in Archery season. What I don't understand about your argument and many post you have made on other threads is this.

You are constantly remarking on dwindling hunter numbers, yet an inclusion of crossbows in archery would put more hunters in the field for a larger portion of the year. how do you reconcile you two differing points of view?

You still don't get it do you? Nobody is arguing that a crossbow wouldn't cut wounding losses. I never said it wouldn't anyway. Read the posts!

My problem with his statement (if you take time to read it) is that it implies that just because there are some bowhunters that don't practice, we should start adding in more weapons to bow season to compensate. Well, why do you think that argument stops with crossbows? I'll repeat: If you or anybody really believes that more efficient weapons should be added into bow season to compensate for those that can not or will not practice why do you think the argument stops with crossbows? Now this probably makes about the 4th or 5th time I've repeated that same thought without anyone bothering to reply to it. But maybe the 4th time is the charm .....lol. 

As to your second point, no one has convinced me that crossbows in bow season will add even one more hunter. It may very well serve as a convenient weapon for a crossover of gun hunters into bow season. Is that a good thing? Well, I don't think so but others may. At any rate shifting hunters from one hunting season to another does not add numbers to the overall hunter population.

Doc, youre nuts. My statement was never to "add more weapons to bow season" it was to add CROSSBOWS to archery season. Since its already established worldwide that crossbows are archery equipment, then it only makes logical sense that they belong in archery season. THAT is why it stops at crossbows, because guns are not archery equipment.

[Doc]

Doc, youre nuts. My statement was never to "add more weapons to bow season" it was to add CROSSBOWS to archery season. Since its already established worldwide that crossbows are archery equipment, then it only makes logical sense that they belong in archery season. THAT is why it stops at crossbows, because guns are not archery equipment.

Now there is some great double talk: "My statement was never to "add more weapons to bow season" it was to add CROSSBOWS to archery season. Amazing! Isn't a crossbow a weapon? But I understand that you say you want to add crossbows and nothing more even though your original post said nothing about that limitation. If you will recall, you were pushing crossbows to make up for the requirement of practice that come with vertical bows.

In a perfect world where you could put those kinds of limitations that little qualifier might actually have some meaning. I'm sure that those who argued for compounds said the same thing but used the word "compound" instead of "crossbow". But as you can see here we are arguing the next level of bastardization of bowseasons. And every (and I do mean every) argument that is used for crossbow inclusion can be equally used to include anything and eventually will. That's why I will never let such all-encompassing statements as you posted stand without rebuttal.

It's really quite simple. We don't like to be saddled with the disciplines that bows require, and are always looking for new weapons that get rid of those pesky limitations. And step by step, that's exactly what we are doing. Kind of getting difficult to tell just why we ever set aside a special season for bows in the first place, isn't it? Every move we make seems to erase those reasons a little more. I don't suppose that is escaping the notice of the black powder guys.....lol.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Its not any double talk, you replaced words in what I said to make it into something it wasnt. I pointed it out, plain and simple. I know you arent stupid, and should be able to understand that. I also know that you are the spin king of the forum and you arent going to let go of it and admit you are trying to twist my statement, plenty of others see it and Im done arguing with you. Get back on your meds and relax. 

[Doc]

Now look .... if you can read this sentence: "My statement was never to "add more weapons to bow season" it was to add CROSSBOWS to archery season" and not see that as absolute double talk gibberish, then I guess we really don't have anything further to talk about. You can't even be straight on an obvious contradiction right within the same sentence when someone shows it to you. No wonder you never could understand the point I was making. You simply pretended not to. good move but totally transparent.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Now look .... if you can read this sentence: "My statement was never to "add more weapons to bow season" it was to add CROSSBOWS to archery season" and not see that as absolute double talk gibberish, then I guess we really don't have anything further to talk about. You can't even be straight on an obvious contradiction right within the same sentence when someone shows it to you. No wonder you never could understand the point I was making. You simply pretended not to. good move but totally transparent.

I think you are missing what he said and to be honest I think you are blinded by you view that crossbows don't belong.

Look at the quote. He was making a point it is not called bow season.....it is archery season and since a crossbow is archery epuipment is belongs on the archery season.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Now look .... if you can read this sentence: "My statement was never to "add more weapons to bow season" it was to add CROSSBOWS to archery season" and not see that as absolute double talk gibberish, then I guess we really don't have anything further to talk about. You can't even be straight on an obvious contradiction right within the same sentence when someone shows it to you. No wonder you never could understand the point I was making. You simply pretended not to. good move but totally transparent.

Seriously, that sentence was a correction to what you said that I said. No double talk at all. YOU CHANGED WHAT I SAID, therefore twisting the meaning. Youre just too blinded by your narcissistic drive to try and prove your point to see what Im saying. How else can I spell it out for you?

[Doc]

Now look .... if you can read this sentence: "My statement was never to "add more weapons to bow season" it was to add CROSSBOWS to archery season" and not see that as absolute double talk gibberish, then I guess we really don't have anything further to talk about. You can't even be straight on an obvious contradiction right within the same sentence when someone shows it to you. No wonder you never could understand the point I was making. You simply pretended not to. good move but totally transparent.

I think you are missing what he said and to be honest I think you are blinded by you view that crossbows don't belong.

Look at the quote. He was making a point it is not called bow season.....it is archery season and since a crossbow is archery epuipment is belongs on the archery season.

Try reading the words instead of imagining up some story. He said his statement wasn't to add more weapons, it was to add crossbows. Crossbows are weapons. If you guys can read and write english, it's right there, two contradictory items right in the same sentence. I didn't make up the quote and I assumed he meant what he said. Sorry for making that leap.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

OK Doc, I am done, you wore me down.

Good luck the rest of the season and have a great holiday

[Doc]

OK Doc, I am done, you wore me down.

Good luck the rest of the season and have a great holiday

Sorry, I'm not trying to wear anyone down. I just get a little testy when people try to dance away from their words and then accuse me of twisting their words because they can't defend what they originally said. I can only put up with so much of that before I start to dig my heels in.

[nyantler]

I got wore down a long time ago... but for the record.. we have compound bows, recurve bows, longbows, and now crossbows... unless they make me buy an extra crossbow license and give me an extra buck tag for crossbow .. it's just another bow during archery season and just another bow during the regular season.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

NY---I love the sport so much....if dec passed only sling shots and spears I would gladly buy my license and still go out. We really are spoiled in this counrty and I mean that in a good way. the resources and opportunity we have are not share by many others around the world. Glad I was born here

[nyantler]

Likewise.. I've always said.. if they had a hammer season, I'd be hunting with a hammmer..

[WNYBuckHunter]

OK Doc, I am done, you wore me down.

Good luck the rest of the season and have a great holiday

Sorry, I'm not trying to wear anyone down. I just get a little testy when people try to dance away from their words and then accuse me of twisting their words because they can't defend what they originally said. I can only put up with so much of that before I start to dig my heels in.

First off, Im not dancing away from anything, you twisted my words, and I surely can and have defended my original statement, you are just looking through a huge set of blinders that dont allow you to understand it.

Here is my original statement "Id rather see those guys that dont have time to practice with a vertical  bow, pick up a crossbow and have the ability to make an accurate shot  on a deer rather than injure a deer due to lack of practice."

Notice, I said "pick up a CROSSBOW" not "pick up another weapon". While a crossbow is a weapon, I was very specific as to what weapon should be included in archery season. Why did I choose to say crossbow? Well, because it in fact is archery equipment. At no time did I use any generality like the word "weapon", that was all you Doc. Dont sit there and try to tell me what I meant, you arent clairvoyant.

BTW, here is what you originally responded to my statement with...

"What are you saying, that because there are hunters that do not take the  time to become proficient with their hunting weapon that we should keep  adding various weapons into bow season until they finally find one that  can be shot without practice?"

...which is not what I was saying, it was just your spin. Nothing more.

[Doc]

You offer up a crossbow as a crutch that will solve your perception that vertical bows need some help with their shortfall of requiring practice. Of course stopping at just a crossbow is a limit that you do not have the power to control, do you? And, I am saying that that whole line of reasoning opens the door for those who would suggest that other weapons (and yes, guns) be included for exactly the same reason. Whether you personally would draw the line at crossbows or not is irrelevant. If you had bothered to read any of my replies, you would have known that I was not saying that you are for guns being included in bowseasons, but you are supplying the logic for others to do so.

I understand that it may be more convenient to try to deflect with words like spin and word-twisting. You may have noticed that I get pretty "dug-in" when those tactics are used. Sorry about that but I simply will not let allegations like that stand without challenge.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Look Doc, making assumptions and taking everything to the extreme like you are doing is whats dangerous. My line of reasoning adds up to nothing more than what was said. The only possible way to twist it into what you are saying is to totally change it, which takes it from one line of reasoning to another. I could take almost any line of reasoning and twist it into just about anything I want if I change enough words in it.

[nyantler]

OMG Doc.. talk about making a mountain out of a mole hill! Now don't take that to mean I think mole hills ought to be mountains... they are perfectly fine as mole hills.. and no I don't want to make mountains out of mole hills which might make your hunting harder because they'll be too many mountains making it harder to get around. its just a saying.

[Doc]

Well I'm pretty much done with this anyway. Once ol' WNY decides he doesn't want to discuss something, he switches into dance mode and the fancy footwork begins .... lol. It's a time honored tactic with him and I should have realized that.  :  As far as mountains and molehills are concerned, I'm sure that there are a some people who really could care less what kinds of things get put into bow season (we've been hearing a lot from them lately) and perhaps the safeguarding of the integrity of bowseason is truly a molehill to them. It doesn't happen to be with me and yes I do worry about the constant erosion of bowseason equipment. If that's making mountains out of molehills, then pass me the shovel. 

[nyantler]

Why is there an integrity of bowseason and no other season... thats always been my gripe about NYB is they only fight for bowhunters and not all hunters. Was a member long ago and did some business with them... I can tell you some stories about the INTEGRITY of some of the officers and members. Now that doesn't mean that I don't think there is a place for them, there are lots of guys that work really hard for them and they do lobby hard for bowhunting.. but they are extremely lacking when it comes to the overall hunter... just my opinion. By the way, after my past experiences with them, and some of the guys "integrity" I will never be a member again.

[Doc]

Why is there an integrity of bowseason and no other season...

I believe there are identifying weapons limitations and other special regulations involved in the muzzleloader seasons as well. I'm not sure if that's how you are using the term or not. 

As far as the NYB, I have had disagreements with the leadership there in the past and have had some pretty heated discussions with them. However, like all such organizations, things don't always go my way and eventually I have to decide whether to abandon the only effective bowhunter advocacy group in NYS and just let seasons and regulations and other matters relating to bowhunting be determined by others including those who have shown a certain level of open hostility toward bowhunters. I have had my problems with some of the positions of the NRA also, but just as with the NYB, I have chosen to maintain membership based on the benefits that they provide the sport and the fact that when organized, we have some voice and without organization we have none. I suppose everyone has to decide whether the benefits out-weigh the disagreements in any organization we consider belonging to. That's a personal decision.

Doc

[WNYBuckHunter]

Well I'm pretty much done with this anyway. Once ol' WNY decides he doesn't want to discuss something, he switches into dance mode and the fancy footwork begins .... lol. It's a time honored tactic with him and I should have realized that.  : 

Yeah ok Doc, I never said I didnt want to discuss the topic and I never danced around the issue. You were the one to start twisting things. If youd like to discuss my original statement, Id be perfectly happy to. 

[Doc]

Yeah ok Doc, I never said I didnt want to discuss the topic and I never danced around the issue. You were the one to start twisting things. If youd like to discuss my original statement, Id be perfectly happy to. 

Of course, that's exactly what I have been trying to do on several occasions, only to be met with obfuscations that are nothing but baseless accusations of spinning and twisting words, and quite frankly I don't think there is much point in trying to hold any further conversations with you on this.

My only hope is that there are not too many people who share your flawed logic about trying to cover the perceived and exaggerated shortcomings of bows by introducing more stuff into bow season. I know you insist that somehow that logic magically stops at crossbows, but quite frankly you know as well as I do that for many people who are eager to force access into bowseasons, that it does not.

[WNYBuckHunter]

Why wouldnt it stop with crossbows, they are archery equipment, so they fit perfectly into archery season. I truly hope that more people that read your flawed logic (similar to that of Chicken Little), dont get sucked into a sky is falling attitude by thinking that I, or others that share a similar opinion, would ever want to introduce guns in any form into archery season. I simply see no reason to exclude archery equipment from archery season, and I dont see a crossbow being slightly more accurate or easier to become proficient with as a bad thing.