AR question

[nyantler]

I never once shot a spike or 4pt and thought to myself..."Boy, I wish he was bigger"

just like you probably wouldn't shoot a 10 pointer and say "Boy I wish he was smaller"

[Doewhacker]

just like you probably wouldn't shoot a 10 pointer and say "Boy I wish he was smaller"

I sure would when I had to drag him a mile. Lol

[jjb4900]

just like you probably wouldn't shoot a 10 pointer and say "Boy I wish he was smaller" .............they're all the same to me, and I've shot both.

[nyantler]

What we have seen under the existing buck harvest regulations (3" minimum) is a herd that through the 80's and 90's spiraled out of control to the point where the antlerless permit system could barely keep up. We have seen harvested deer layered with fat to the point of almost being obese. We have seen some very nice deer for those that cared to work hard enough for them. The health of the herd has been exceptional to the point of having them become a nuisance that often tests the ability of hunters and the permit system to control. What we don't have is a trophy behind every tree, but I have yet to hear any credible biologist claiming that the deer herd is "unhealthy" because of buck age structure or any other reason that can be concocted. The fact is that if the herd gets any more "healthy", we are likely going to have a habitat crisis.

So I like the talk about AR being required to keep the herd healthy through balanced buck age but it all sounds too much like someone trying to fix a problem that they can't demonstrate exists. I find the trophy antler wants and needs of hunters to be a much more believable and credible motive behind the AR craze. I may not personally subscribe to that thought, but at least it is something that I can believe.

You can believe what you want.. but it is not natural for bucks in the herd to have a less than balanced age structure... that was created by the way NY has managed the herd over the last 100 years... just because the herd survives doesn't mean that it is necessarily healthy... when fawns are being born late in summer that is not healthy... when young bucks are doing all the breeding instead of building body weight that is not healthy.. when the buck to doe ratios reach 20:1 that is not healthy.. there has been a consistant number of whitetails in NY for over 50 years... what you call overpopulation is due to rapid habitat lose and the displacement of complete herds to smaller areas combined with a dramatc drop in hunter numbers.. especially in the 90's...

I'll stop there.. because i agree that the larger motive for most AR supporters are large bucks... i disagree that AR's by themselves are a bad idea for NY as a means to protect young bucks and balance out the age structure...i do not support AR's for any other reason.. I think they make sense for their inteded objective...

[nyantler]

I sure would when I had to drag him a mile. Lol

Can't disagree with that..LOL

[Doc]

I am kind of determined not to get caught up in the mud-wrestling match called AR discussions again, but I do have a serious question about the mechanics of antler restrictions, and I hope I can get a serious answer without starting some big controversy .... lol.

Can anyone tell me if there is any kind of legal description of what constitutes a legal countable point? Is there any definition or length or some other description that goes beyond simply a wide pointy spot on the main beam? I'm no where near an AR unit so I haven't had occasion to look it up, but I was just a bit curious about that detail.

[jjb4900]

Bucks taken in the antler restriction area must have at least one antler with 3 or more points that are at least one inch long...........from dec's website, but measured from what point?

[nyantler]

Bucks taken in the antler restriction area must have at least one antler with 3 or more points that are at least one inch long measured from the top of the beam to the tip of the point... the base wide can not exceed the length of the point..

Edited September 27, 2012 by nyantler

[nyantler]

If it were effective you would see more 3.5 and up taken in the AR units, in reality it is not much different than areas outside of AR areas. It saves 1.5's for slaughter until they are 2.5, thats all.

True.. but that 2.5 year old will be a little harder to kill the next year... thats why it takes a few years for harvest numbers to get back to normal when an AR program is started... not enough older deer and the ones that are older are not as easy to kill as the yearlings were.. eventually the age classes balance out and harvest numbers return to normal except those bucks being harvested are now mature bucks instead of yearlings... unfortunately, those looking for the next world record will be disappointed because the 3 on a side rule is not meant to, and will not, produce super old bucks. It only protects the yearlings... which leaves a little room for bucks to gain some age... it by no means will ever be a way to grow a large crop of huge bucks. The restrictions would have to be far greater as in a QDM program to do that.

Edited September 27, 2012 by nyantler

[Doc]

Bucks taken in the antler restriction area must have at least one antler with 3 or more points that are at least one inch long measured from the top of the beam to the tip of the point... the base wide can not exceed the length of the point..

Not sure I understand "the base wide can not exceed the length of the point". I'm assuming that you really meant base width, but does that mean the lowest point on the main beam diameter or the diameter of the burr?

[jjb4900]

If it's measured anything like Pope & Young, Boone & Crocket , you draw a line that goes along the main beam under the point and measure from that line up..........yeah, kinda tough in a hunting situation that means legal or illegal point. Anything where the burr comes into play would only be in areas that allow spikes to still be taken.

[nyantler]

Not sure I understand "the base wide can not exceed the length of the point". I'm assuming that you really meant base width, but does that mean the lowest point on the main beam diameter or the diameter of the burr?

Yes... sorry... that was suppose to be width ..It is the diameter of the point where it meets the beam measured parallel to the beam... I have a pic I can show you but I'm having trouble loading it up.

I am kind of glad you asked this question.. because it raises another question that I had not thought of... I wonder if they are talking about typical points only or if non-typical points count as well... because that would change the whole dynamic of the law. Although it is rare for a young buck to sport non-typical points.. it is possible.. and I'm sure the situation could arise somewhere in NY. Hmmmmm. Not another can of worms!!! Or is that a hornets nest???

Edited September 28, 2012 by nyantler

[Guns&ReligionCop]

I like Antler Restrictions because you see more deer with big antlers so I can brag and show how big of a man I am. That being said they also fill my freezer with more meat because the deer are twice the size and I feel more accomplished because what no one seems to mention is that regardless of AR's a older is a smarter deer. The older they are regardless of AR's the harder they are to find! Is anyone going to argue with me that a spike 1.5 year deer is harder to hunt than an older deer regardless of AR's?

[nyantler]

here is the pic Doc... the measurement across the bottom of the point cannot exceed the the length

[jjb4900]

I think any legal point is good, if you see a one horned spike with two additional non typical points equaling a total of 3, you're good

[nyantler]

I think any legal point is good, if you see a one horned spike with two additional non typical points equaling a total of 3, you're good

I'm starting to think that mandatory AR's are not a good idea... with that kind of thinking they could not possible be sucessful anyway... I just wondering... if a 1" spike is ok with you then you'd be ok with the DEC just issuing you a couple extra doe tags in place of any buck tag at all?

[jjb4900]

I think the question was what makes a legal point and I think I answered the original question....maybe try sticking to answering the question and not putting your own twist on the topic.

[nyantler]

I think the question was what makes a legal point and I think I answered the original question....maybe try sticking to answering the question and not putting your own twist on the topic.

"I think" is not an answer to the question it is your opinion of what the answer might be... I answered the original question a long time ago... this is a new question that doesn't have an answer yet because it is not specified in the law. and I'm thinking that if the goal is to keep hunters from shooting yearlings, a spike with two stickers would still constitute a yearling... and anyone taking that buck (although maybe legal) has no regard for the objective of the law... therefore.. with that kind of thinking there is no reason to have an AR trying to achive that objective because it doesn;t stand a chance of succeeding. How's that for staying on the topic?

Edited September 28, 2012 by nyantler

[jjb4900]

ok, I KNOW the question was what constitutes a legal point...and I think that's all that DOC was asking................hey DOC want to jump in and restate what you were asking, was it just about legal points or antler restrictions?

[jjb4900]

Holy crap nyantler, the more I read your response, the more off the wall it sounds.....the "I think" was not offering the answer to his question, but as to what his question was....slow down and read the post's......and you were the one who threw the non-typical point question in....

[apoallo]

this thread is still going on...... I just noticed there is yet another antler restriction thread that begun....

[Marti375]

I think anyone that is so worried about shoohting the smallest thing they can find, should just shoot whatever they want. Then drag it to DEC and say hey is this legal! Don't forget to post pics and any fines you get.

[burmjohn]

The older they are regardless of AR's the harder they are to find! Is anyone going to argue with me that a spike 1.5 year deer is harder to hunt than an older deer regardless of AR's?

Nope and no one is / has not yet come up with an argument that the program has not been effective at reaching its indented goal, allowing more 1.5's to move on to become 2.5's , 3.5's and 3.5 +. These are facts, indisputable ones at that.

[Doc]

here is the pic Doc... the measurement across the bottom of the point cannot exceed the the length

Ok, that answers the question ......thanx

[nyantler]

Nope and no one is / has not yet come up with an argument that the program has not been effective at reaching its indented goal, allowing more 1.5's to move on to become 2.5's , 3.5's and 3.5 +. These are facts, indisputable ones at that.

So true..and the fact that the proof of the success of the program is evident and there are still hunters not satisfied tells me that those hunters really don't care about the objective of th law. I'm sure it is because they themselves didn't kill something... harvest numbers have about leveled out to where they were before in those areas with the same percentage of hunters being the ones that are successful... so that kind of proves that there is always going to be a greater percentage of hunters that don't get a buck regardless of AR's... so nothing has really changed but the ages of bucks available to the 30 or so percent that harvest a buck each year. The rest are still dissatisfied like they were before.

Edited September 28, 2012 by nyantler