Not one post?

[d-bone20917]

Forget about Obama and Romney for a minute. Take the highest fine of $695. If a young single person decides not to get insurance he/she pays a fine of $695. I will gaurentee that a health insurance policy for that person is way more than $695 so why not just pay the fine and if you get sick, the government pays?? What am I missing? Seriously, no arguments.

You aren't missing anything. You are exactly right.

[ants]

So when people, and businesses figure out that its cheaper to pay the fine and let the government pay.....were does the money come from?

[d-bone20917]

From what I have read, they know that a large portion of the younger single people with no kids will choose to pay the penalty if they are healthy and take their chances. But they are counting on (and expecting) large numbers of people to enter into the insurance pool as well which will spread the risk and allow insurance companies to cover people with preexisting conditions. There will also be tax breaks to help lower income families get coverage.

This is based on the Massachusetts model where less than 1% of the people choose to pay the penalty. How well it works nationally remains to be seen.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

What I find hilarious is that much of Obamacare was modeled after the MA healthcare plan that was signed into law by Romney. And now Romney is badmouthing it and claiming that he will repeal Obamacare once he's in office? Yeah right!! Romney saying this alone shows what type of flip-flopping hypocrite he really is. I will guarantee anyone that if he is elected he will never even begin to repeal any of it. I can just hear him now. If elected he will be claiming that it was HE who was first in the nation to implement such a great plan! LOL He will then be claiming all the credit for coming up with the idea. LOL The guy is a real tool, I've got to say.

I may have been a good idea for the state since it sould be handled by a state...NOT BY THE FEDS. The federal govt has no authority to intrude in this arena I don't agree with the process in ither case but it is a logical argument to be in favor in one case and not the other

[Culvercreek hunt club]

From what I have read, they know that a large portion of the younger single people with no kids will choose to pay the penalty if they are healthy and take their chances. But they are counting on (and expecting) large numbers of people to enter into the insurance pool as well which will spread the risk and allow insurance companies to cover people with preexisting conditions. There will also be tax breaks to help lower income families get coverage.

This is based on the Massachusetts model where less than 1% of the people choose to pay the penalty. How well it works nationally remains to be seen.

ANd those that pay the penalty and not the insurance....who pays for care when they do get sick? Care will not be denied, they won't do it now.

[d-bone20917]

ANd those that pay the penalty and not the insurance....who pays for care when they do get sick? Care will not be denied, they won't do it now.

That is the way things have worked for a long time and I think something should be done so we don't have to continue to pay for them. Do you think the people that don't have health insurance should be denied care when they seek treatment at the Emergency Room?

Edited October 10, 2012 by d-bone20917

[Culvercreek hunt club]

Minors.....no

Illegals...yes

Capable adults...yes

[Sogaard]

Minors.....no

Illegals...yes

Capable adults...yes

So, your answer is let uninsured people die. Wow. Trying for formulate more, but I'm just stuck at "Wow".

[Culvercreek hunt club]

So, your answer is let uninsured people die. Wow. Trying for formulate more, but I'm just stuck at "Wow".

Wow? that is as indepth as you can get? Did I say let them die? I don't remember saying that. and I am not against providing care for capable adults that do not carry insurance. but...and this was the context of my comment. they don't get it for FREE. either them or their family work the cost off. we can't afford free rides anymore.

[Sogaard]

Oh, I get it now. My bad. You meant they can have treatment as long as they are willing to submit to slavery, errr, I mean, indentured servitude. Have you seen what uninsured hospital care costs?

They can just put the poor to work mopping the floors and serving in the cafeteria. At minimum wage, they can pay off that minor surgery in 5-8 years. That's a reasonable solution.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

you guys act like everything is free. just give everything away. at some point someone has to pay. if it isn't them then it will be us. well at least me, i have no idea if you aren't on the dole with the rest. there are real cost here and rather than addressing issues that force the costs to be as expensive as they are the solution to the left is just force more cost to those that have worked to provide for their families. It isn't just health care, this approach is taken on most topics, including energy.the same ones that want to give away the farm are all for more govt involvement which forces up cost.

so how much is too much in your eyes? how much do we give away? How many of your family are on the take?

[ants]

I just see the whole thing turning into a mess when people realize that they can just get government health care by paying a relatively low fine instead of paying big bucks for insurance. I don't know where the money would come from. Not to mention the system would be flooded. They should have left well enough alone

[Sogaard]

I actually am all for less spending, but health care for the poor is not where I feel we should be cutting costs. There are always going to be people abusing the system, but that doesn't mean you can abandon the people who truly need the help.

How about trimming a few hundred billion from the defense budget? Do we really need 11 carrier groups? That's more than the rest of the world combined, including allies. How about the nice $140 million a pop asphyxiation device, the F22 Raptor (80 BILLION project cost for a plane that's a slightly better version of the F117)? Its going to be awesome when they finally figure out how to stop it from killing our own pilots. Or the 50,000+ troops we still keep in Germany just in case....ummm...someone...decides to start a land war in Europe. Or the countless other examples of needless military projects that politicians lobby for so they can get votes?

But no, its easier to just throw the poor under the bus because they can't fight back.

[Sogaard]

I just see the whole thing turning into a mess when people realize that they can just get government health care by paying a relatively low fine instead of paying big bucks for insurance. I don't know where the money would come from. Not to mention the system would be flooded. They should have left well enough alone

Ants, this is what currently happens now, except you aren't fined.

Hospitals can't refuse to give you care if you show up in their emergency room. Who do you think pays the bills for the uninsured now? I'll give you two guesses, but you'll probably only need one.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

I think there are excesses across the board and you hit on just a few. I am all for cutting them but we have to maintain a superior military position. I find it funny that the more liberal leqaning always point to military cuts. You do realize that is a function given to the federal govt while providing healthcare for the masses isn't..right? There is nothing in our founding documents that guarantees services such as health care.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The F22 is slightly better than the F117? Are you serious? You dont even know what you are talking about Sogaard. They arent even the same class of aircraft or fill the same role.

I can agree to trimming the fat on things, but not staying up to date on our military is just plain dumb, or do you forget what happened between WW1 and WW2 and what it took to build our military back up to the point where we could take on those that attacked us?

Just goes to prove you dont have a clue, most likely about anything you are speaking of in this conversation.

Slavery? Now thats what you guys call being held accountable for paying for the goods and services you receive? What a joke.

Typical leftie.

[Sogaard]

The F22 is slightly better than the F117? Are you serious? You dont even know what you are talking about Sogaard. They arent even the same class of aircraft or fill the same role.

I can agree to trimming the fat on things, but not staying up to date on our military is just plain dumb, or do you forget what happened between WW1 and WW2 and what it took to build our military back up to the point where we could take on those that attacked us?

Just goes to prove you dont have a clue, most likely about anything you are speaking of in this conversation.

Slavery? Now thats what you guys call being held accountable for paying for the goods and services you receive? What a joke.

Typical leftie.

So, you are really trying to compare WWI, WWII and current military technology? Might as well be comparing WWI to sticks and stones. We could level any other country with just our cruise missiles. Their isn't military in the world that can hold a candle to ours. Our SLBM's are the only deterrent we ever need.

[Elmo]

F117 is a strike bomber while the F22 is a fighter. F117 can't get into a dog fight. Our air and naval surperiority is the main reason why only so many of our troops have died in combat. It has gotten to the point that once the death toll had reached 5000 people were calling an outrage. Think back to WW2 and Vietnam. 5000 troops getting killed in combat would be considered a good month. If we didn't have such a clear advantage of the sea and sky, the death toll would be 10 times higher.

[WNYBuckHunter]

No, Im pointing out what we did militarily between those two wars, and what it took to get enough military strength up to go up against the Axis powers.

If you think every war or situation can or should be won just by launching a few missiles, then you are just reinforcing my conclusion that you dont know what you are talking about.

[WNYBuckHunter]

F117 is a strike bomber while the F22 is a fighter. F117 can't get into a dog fight. Our air and naval surperiority is the main reason why only so many of our troops have died in combat. It has gotten to the point that once the death toll had reached 5000 people were calling an outrage. Think back to WW2 and Vietnam. 5000 troops getting killed in combat would be considered a good month. If we didn't have such a clear advantage of the sea and sky, the death toll would be 10 times higher.

Ahhhhh, someone that KNOWS what they speak of. How refreshing lol

[Elmo]

So, you are really trying to compare WWI, WWII and current military technology? Might as well be comparing WWI to sticks and stones. We could level any other country with just our cruise missiles. Their isn't military in the world that can hold a candle to ours. Our SLBM's are the only deterrent we ever need.

The constant development is required to stay ahead of the curve. The military was forced to develop the F22 because the Russians had the Mig 29 which was consided equal if not better than the F14 Tomcat and the F18 Hornets which the F22 Raptor replaced. As we speak now, the Russians are putting finishing touches to the Mig 35.

Russia isn't much of a threat right now but it is making a comeback. China is the clear #2 in world power. Yes, in a no holds barred battle, USA will still prevail but USA would also be a shell of itself after a fight like that. Fortunately, China has thus far always kept a "we'll mind our own business, we just want to be left alone" attitude.

[d-bone20917]

I just see the whole thing turning into a mess when people realize that they can just get government health care by paying a relatively low fine instead of paying big bucks for insurance. I don't know where the money would come from. Not to mention the system would be flooded. They should have left well enough alone

I think a lot of Americans don't consider the current state of things as "well enough" or it would have been left alone. At least there is something on the table now and hopefully both sides will try to grow up a little and work with it to make improvements. Although Romney says he is going to repeal it, he really only means the individual mandate. He has stated he plans to keep almost everything else in it including requiring coverage for individuals with preexisting conditions. I just don't know how he plans to make that work without adding healthy customers to insurance companies pool of people. These companies aren't going to agree to take on a bunch of people that they are guaranteed to lose money on unless you give them a bunch of other customers they can make money on. After all, they are in business to make money. Apparently this is a secret the Romney is going to keep until after the election.

[Sogaard]

I know what the F22 was supposed to be able to do, however, hate to break it to you, but the F22 isn't preforming as advertized. That bubble has been burst.

http://dvice.com/archives/2012/08/f-22-raptors-pr.php

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/

http://www.adn.com/2012/08/01/2566745/germans-pilots-claim-dogfight.html

Plus, in all honesty, who are we going to be dog fighting with that isn't flying something from the 1960s? Someone mentioned China. Yes, without a doubt, China is the one country that could at least compete with us militarily right now. However, to do so would be incredibly stupid since our economies are so intertwined. Wars like WWII will never be fought again because the weapons are just too powerful. Also, those pesky little satellites might notice an entire nation mobilizing for war.

Global economy and SLBMs, that's out deterrent...we'll destroy ourselves way before anyone will pose a significant military threat to this country.

[Sogaard]

And lets also face the fact that the future of warfare is unmanned. There are no crying voters protesting when a robot dies.

[Elmo]

The reason you bring a gun to a knife fight is so that there won't actually be a fight. You don't even have to actually use the gun. Just wave it around.