better dump your ammo stockpile

[Mr VJP]

Greybeard, I'd agree with you if gun owners were violating a law that was meant to protect the innocent. But gun rights are RIGHTS! Rights guaranteed by the US Constitution, the highest law of the land. Rights that PROTECT the innocent! Any law passed to violate those rights is an unjust, illegal law, that should not be accepted by any citizen of this land.

I'm not married and my children are now full grown, college educated, living in other states and doing fine on their own. I'm very well versed in the corrupt legal and judicial systems of this land and I know how they don't work to convict and incarcerate real criminals. If I'm ever arrested, I will not hire an attorney and I will never spend any time in prison, because I will post bail, get out of jail, and become an outlaw at that point. Let's just say from that point forward it will be Game On!

You guys should look up the history of the founding fathers and what they sacrificed to fight for freedom from the British. Most lost everything they had, and many lost their lives. Those are the kind of men this country is currently woefully short on.

And that is why we have elected officials who know they can get away with passing these oppressive gun laws. Nobody is willing to risk any of their materialistic, meager possessions, forget their lives, to fight tyranny! If you have a wife and family, you are condemning them to servitude of the state so you can avoid a fight. That's why this society is doomed. I'd rather go out fighting than become a slave. And I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with any other man having the ballz to do the same.

[Doc]

Greybeard, I'd agree with you if gun owners were violating a law that was meant to protect the innocent. But gun rights are RIGHTS! Rights guaranteed by the US Constitution, the highest law of the land. Rights that PROTECT the innocent! Any law passed to violate those rights is an unjust, illegal law, that should not be accepted by any citizen of this land.

I'm not married and my children are now full grown, college educated, living in other states and doing fine on their own. I'm very well versed in the corrupt legal and judicial systems of this land and I know how they don't work to convict and incarcerate real criminals. If I'm ever arrested, I will not hire an attorney and I will never spend any time in prison, because I will post bail, get out of jail, and become an outlaw at that point. Let's just say from that point forward it will be Game On!

You guys should look up the history of the founding fathers and what they sacrificed to fight for freedom from the British. Most lost everything they had, and many lost their lives. Those are the kind of men this country is currently woefully short on.

And that is why we have elected officials who know they can get away with passing these oppressive gun laws. Nobody is willing to risk any of their materialistic, meager possessions, forget their lives, to fight tyranny! If you have a wife and family, you are condemning them to servitude of the state so you can avoid a fight. That's why this society is doomed. I'd rather go out fighting than become a slave. And I'll stand shoulder to shoulder with any other man having the ballz to do the same.

So, when can we join your militia? I assume that just like our forefathers, you are currently in the process of putting yourself on the line in defense of the tyranny and oppression that you believe we are all living under. Are you stockpiling that diesel fuel and fertilizer yet? Hey what the heck maybe we will be reading your name right up there with Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols and other such self appointed "patriots". I love the bold talk, but I really wonder when you intend to put that into actual practice.

[greybeard]

My point was that there are consequences to violations of law. I did take some license and was a bit dramatic with the wife and children thing, but my point was that others suffer too for poor choices.

 

Some may disagree with me, but I would challenge them to refute anything, using facts, not opinions,of anything that I wrote regarding effects of committing felonies.( I  am assuming that the violations are felonies).

 

Mr VJP I do not agree with your philosophy, but If you chose to fight the system then that's your choice

I just pointed out the pit falls, and hope that young people, in particular, realize that they are accountable. Wrong choices may affect them throughout their lives, and a  knowing and willful violation of  law is a wrong choice. I ,too, am very versed in the system, but I don't agree that it is corrupt. It may, at times, get it wrong, but no one said that it was perfect.

 

I agreed not to go further with my opinions so I will end it here. I'm not a fan of debating issues on line anyway, it's too easy to be an internet warrior. I'm for face to face debates, where we all know each others life experiences, and  know if the facts presented  are credible. I'm really not sure why I even  got involved in this discussion last night.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[EspressoBuzz]

I'm really not sure why I even  got involved in this discussion last night.

 

Drunk?

[Doc]

I'm not a fan of debating issues on line anyway, it's too easy to be an internet warrior. I'm for face to face debates, where we all know each others life experiences, and  know if the facts presented  are credible. I'm really not sure why I even  got involved in this discussion last night.

The reason I offer an opinion is threefold. One, is the fact that I really don't like to see the glamorization of felony law-breaking. It is important that there should be no trivializing of the consequences. I don't know how many youngsters may be reading these messages, but most likely there are some, and it should not go unmentioned that felony convictions have consequences that last a lifetime. I know that Mr VJP is only stating what he believes is the honorable position of having the courage of your convictions, but unfortunately, it comes across as belittling living within a system of laws.

 

The second reason a comment on this subject is required is my feeling that the time for insurrection is a bit premature in my opinion. I do not have this defeated attitude that it is time to trash the whole system. We have all kinds of potential remedies in process as we speak. We gain nothing by turning toward lawlessness. We do not pick up needed support by making people believe that gun owners are simply gangsters waiting to break laws and flaunt our willingness and perhaps even eagerness to jump to the other side of the law. There are very few that find sympathy with militia mindsets, and those convicted of, or participating in, acts that can be construed as domestic terrorism really are not all that effective in changing any policies. In fact that kind of thing only invites further encroachments and excludes support from reasonable thinking people.

 

A third value of offering challenge to some of the notions offered in this thread is the fact that a lot of the more brash-speaking people think that simple shock value is all that is required to solve the current threats to the 2nd Amendment. It is much harder to get down in the trenches and do the heavy-lifting of legal activism. No these kinds of mundane grunt-work activities do not have the appeal of the more Rambo-style attitudes, but they are a lot more effective and really are the only activities that have any practical chance of affecting change.

 

[greybeard]

Espresso... Nope.. gave it up.. maybe it's an age thing..

 

 

 

[Mr VJP]

For those of you who think I'm talking B.S., I was born in the US to a Hungarian immigrant father and an American mother in 1955.  In 1956 my father and grandfather, who were both Hungarian nationals and politically connected in both the US and Hungary, returned to Hungary to revolt against the Russians and their occupation of Hungary.  I'm not going to go into a lot of details about their revolutionary connections, but I will tell you both of them died fighting the Russians.  They had NO firearms to fight with.  Firearms had been BANNED AND CONFISCATED!  My unarmed father was killed throwing a Molotov cocktail into a Russian tank in downtown Budapest and my grandfather was cut to pieces by an AK-47 while trying to get the gun out of the hands of a Russian soldier.  If you want to learn more about the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, just Google it and read James Michener's novel, "The Bridge at Andau".  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bridge_at_Andau   By the time my uncle got to that bridge fleeing the country, the Russians had killed hundreds of people trying to cross it, and then blew it up.  He survived by swimming that frigid river at night in the dead of winter.

 

The Hungarian Revolution of 1956 failed because those brave men were promised help from America by the CIA if they started a revolution.  The United States let them all die, or get imprisoned, as they waited for help that never came!  A similar disaster happened a few years later at the Bay of Pigs in Cuba.

 

My grandmother, aunts and surviving uncles have schooled me in the history of government oppression and resistance.  I've also learned what it was like to live without freedom.  When this is the topic, I know what I'm talking about.

 

What I see happening in this land is following the same plan the Hungarians experienced in the 1950's.  The wimpy complaining and legal wrangling gun owners in America are employing will not work, because that has all been anticipated by the government and measures have been put in place to insure they will fail.

 

Don't insult me with childish comments about militias and fertilizer bombs being employed to fight this crap.  That is not what constitutes a intelligent revolt.  Hunters and outdoorsman may be apathetic for the most part, but there are many gun owning men in this land who didn't buy their firearms to hunt.  They bought them for the specific purpose of defending themselves against a government that turns on it's own people by violating the Constitution.  The REAL reason the 2nd Amendment was put into the Bill of Rights in the first place!  What we need now is a change to the mindset of patriotic Americans.  We need people to wake up and realize what is happening, where it's taking us, and what we need to do about it RIGHT NOW!  And that is not armed rebellion....yet!

 

If Americans don't show a major non-compliance attitude right now, the infringement of rights, and I mean ALL rights, will begin to accelerate at an unprecedented rate and eventually all will be lost.  I'm not talking about bombs, battles and assassinations here.  I'm talking about people convincing everyone they know, on the left or the right, that the change this country is experiencing is not a good change, and the only way it will be reversed is if the majority of Americans refuse to accept it.  Anyone who is arrested and prosecuted for a violation of these unjust laws is perceived by the government as a threat to the status quo and the government, not because they are a threat to society or innocent people.  Once you have been identified as such a person by the authorities, you are either silenced, or you get off the radar and become an outlaw.  What drives you from then on is JUSTICE, in spite of what the Fed says is legal and not legal.

 

This is what made men like Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Lech Wałęsa, Mandela, TuTu, Patrick Henry and all of the founding fathers.  They even warned us one day this would all be necessary to continue living in a free land.  The government propaganda machine has been working overtime in the last decade to convince most uninformed Americans resistance is a felony that comes with dire consequences.  That ought to tell you something about the government in itself.  But it should also tell you what is in store for you if you comply.

 

Sadly, I don't see a lot of intelligence in the majority of Americans on this subject, and I wonder if enough of them will ever come to their senses before it's too late.  But I can assure you, I know what the future of America will be like if they don't, and I'd rather not be a part of it.  You can make your choice.

[Mr VJP]

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death." –Thomas Paine, The Crisis, No. 1, 1776

 

When a civilization is reaching its end, it is difficult to achieve anything by resisting it and by directly opposing the forces in motion. The current is too strong; one would be overwhelmed. The essential thing is not to let oneself be impressed by the omnipotence and apparent triumph of the forces of the epoch. These forces, devoid of connection with any higher principle, are in fact on a short chain. One should not be fixated on the present and on things at hand, but keep in view the conditions that may come about in the future. Thus the principle to follow could be that of letting the forces and processes of this epoch take their own course, while keeping oneself firm and ready to intervene when 'the tiger, which cannot leap on the person riding it, is tired of running".

 

I bid you all good luck in the future.

[mmkay]

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death." –Thomas Paine, The Crisis, No. 1, 1776

 

When a civilization is reaching its end, it is difficult to achieve anything by resisting it and by directly opposing the forces in motion. The current is too strong; one would be overwhelmed. The essential thing is not to let oneself be impressed by the omnipotence and apparent triumph of the forces of the epoch. These forces, devoid of connection with any higher principle, are in fact on a short chain. One should not be fixated on the present and on things at hand, but keep in view the conditions that may come about in the future. Thus the principle to follow could be that of letting the forces and processes of this epoch take their own course, while keeping oneself firm and ready to intervene when 'the tiger, which cannot leap on the person riding it, is tired of running".

 

I bid you all good luck in the future.

 

 

 

When a civilization is reaching its end, it is difficult to achieve anything by resisting it and by directly opposing the forces in motion. The current is too strong; one would be overwhelmed. The essential thing is not to let oneself be impressed by the omnipotence and apparent triumph of the forces of the epoch. These forces, devoid of connection with any higher principle, are in fact on a short chain. One should not be fixated on the present and on things at hand, but keep in view the conditions that may come about in the future. Thus the principle to follow could be that of letting the forces and processes of this epoch take their own course, while keeping oneself firm and ready to intervene when 'the tiger, which cannot leap on the person riding it, is tired of running".

 

quoting an Italian Facist (Giulio Cesare Andrea Evola)....gotta love it

[virgil]

_{You're surprised that he's using Fascist quotes?}

[mmkay]

_{You're surprised that he's using Fascist quotes?}

 

 

 

YES..Giulio Cesare Andrea Evola.  was a wacko that left his country after the it surrendered in WWII and went to Germany....he was a true believer....SS follower head case

 

But don’t confuse a fascist with a right winger nut job.  Fascists are socialists, more in line with today’s far left Democrats then Republicans…both of which equally suck

Edited September 3, 2013 by mmkay

[Culvercreek hunt club]

A broken watch is right twice a day. The validity of a statement can still be solid withuot regard to who said it. Heck I even agree with a couple thing that BO has said........Like 

We need to steer clear of this poverty of ambition, where people want to drive fancy cars and wear nice clothes and live in nice apartments but don't want to work hard to accomplish these things. Everyone should try to realize their full potential.
Barack Obama

 

 

I agree with what he said but don't for a moment think he believes it...lol

[greybeard]

Mr VJP...I think that maybe you have to realize that this government that you apparently fear, or hate welcomed your father and immigrant relatives with open arms. They were given the opportunity to realize the American dream. I would think that you, of all people, would be more appreciative of the American Government that gave you, and your family so much. It is the US system of laws that allowed them to live here , no one in your family was oppressed here.

 

I have NEVER feared he Federal government, and they have served me well for my whole life. It's not perfect, and I disagree with some decisions, but it works. When you disagree, remember that in a democracy sometimes the other guy wins. You won't agree with them, but in time, if your positions are well founded and supported by the majority, you will have your day too.

 

You may have served our country, whether in the military, law enforcement, or fire fighter, etc. so this may not apply to you.

I think that there are a lot of people complaining and crying, and talk a great patriotic story, but when it comes right down to it they never served a day doing anything significant to protect, or defend the citizens.

[Mr VJP]

Greybeard, the government that existed in the US in the 50's and 60's is not the same one we have today.  Things have changed dramatically.  One of the reasons I so oppose the current administration is that it bears no resemblance to the administrations that proceeded it, where freedom and rights were paramount. 

 

The country that I love is still the same, but the government has become a monster.

 

I served this land in the military, still do in law enforcement and as a firefighter.  I love this country.  That's why I hate our government.  I hope you can understand what I'm saying.

 

As for the men who lower themselves to the level of whale feces to respond to my posts, I expect nothing less and it only lowers my opinion of you.

 

[greybeard]

 I'm getting a better understanding now. However, I don't agree with all you say, but you are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. Since our difference of opinion does not interfere with each others lives, disagreement and reading the different  point of view  can be a good thing. It'd be pretty boring if we all thought the same. I actually like respectful disagreement with my point of view. I don't ever really care if someone disagrees with me, I just like to present my side, and move on.

[Doc]

 

As for the men who lower themselves to the level of whale feces to respond to my posts, I expect nothing less and it only lowers my opinion of you.

There is something wrong when you find it necessary to hate people simply because they respond to your posts.

 

There are things not to like in this government, but I will say that when you start pushing the idea of lawlessness, that is an issue that I do not take as lightly as you apparently do. And yes, that is exactly the same philosophy adopted by Terry Nichols and his partner McVeigh. They too held the notion that the government of this country is their enemy and that laws mean nothing. Their solution lead to their conclusion that war had to be declared against the Country (government). I'm sorry, but I simply can't abide that kind of thinking or talk. It's offensive to me, and is totally contrary to what I fought for. We have systems in place to handle what's gone wrong in our government. Most choose to use that system. Others simply want to tear it all down. We are a country that has laws at our core. That is not a new concept that just came on us since the 50's and 60's but has been here since our inception. This never has been the form of government where people pick and choose what laws they will obey. There are legitimate processes for changing laws that are unjust or unpopular. You may choose to ignore those processes and cross over to the side of lawlessness, but don't expect a whole lot of support when you propose such a thing.

[greybeard]

Doc, Well said again...

 

  We hear a lot of talk from those who oppose gun laws, about not complying. I've read it here many times.However, IF the laws are passed and if they are felonies, I suspect that almost all would realize  the consequences, and comply.

 

I do believe that responsible gun owners have an obligation to try to persuade those who wish to break the law that they will do themselves and our cause no good. Every arrest for a firearm related law is a statistic against gun owners and every statistic fuels the anti gun debate, and gives their cause more support.

 

Those who preach that we should stand united and break the law, must realize that such a united stand for their cause will create a strong cause against them. I, as a gun owner, would oppose the lawbreakers, and many gun owners would feel the same. I always believed that as a group hunters and gun owner were believers in the American way and have no tolerance for those who violate our laws. I do not want criminals supporting my cause and would oppose them verbally as well as in writing. I am a true believer in our system and have zero tolerance for those who fight against it.They have a right to their views, and I will listen to try to understand the those views, but I will still be in opposition.

 

Mr VJP is angry, but he is in law enforcement. He realizes the consequences more then most. I won't speak for him, but I suspect that he would not fight his brother law enforcement officers who are obliged to enforce the  law. He, also,  has to know that he will get caught and would not fare well inside as a convicted cop. As far as living the life as a fugitive, there is NO freedom in that life, and he realizes that. He also stated earlier that criminals don't do time. He knows, as a law enforcement officer,that his statement  isn't so, I believe that it  was written for effect. Lastly, I would hope that the oath that he took to enforce the laws, would prevent him from violating them, even if he disagrees with those laws.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Two Track]

My neighbor who is a NYC officer and another officer I know are very unhappy with the NY "Safe" Act, but this is off topic for this thread.  It is suppose to be about another attempt at micro stamped ammunition - this time trying to force it on the manufacturers and have the vendors track who they sold what to and the "unique mark".

 

I saw no proposal on what he unique mark requirement is.  In theory they could simply put their company logo on each bullet they produce - making this a useless law that does nothing to track who shot the bullet.  All it will do is create longer lines and wait time to purchase ammo. 

 

This will hurt local sport shops that are near the borders of the state - customers will go to NJ, CT, VT, & Pa to avoid the wait and hassle.  This will in turn hurt the state in their pockets - no sales = no taxes collected.  To think to that they are trying to tout that this is sportsman friendly state.  Look at Cuomo's letter on the inside cover for the current Hunting regulations issue - I almost laughed while reading that.

 

This to me this proposal also appears that it could be illegal in terms of interstate trade.  We need to start persuading our state legislators to get this proposal axed now they are going back into session and remind them of our disgust for the NY Safe Act.

[Mr VJP]

Doc, I never attacked those who respond to my posts, only those who sink to low levels to post insults to my posts.  You never seem to understand what I mean in my posts.

 

As far as a nation of laws go, I say again, if the laws are constitutional, I will support them.  If they are unconstitutional, I will not.  I took an oath to defend and uphold the constitution, and that is exactly what I intend to do. And many of my peers are of like mind.

 

Would you expect me to support a law that passed saying, "In order to prevent rapes, all American males must have their penis removed."?  How about, "All Jews are to be rounded up and sent off to prison camps."?  That law was actually enforced by LEO's in a certain country once upon a time.  I would never have gone along with that, but I hear people saying they would always follow the law, until they could work within the system to change it.  How did that strategy work out for those people?

 

It's not legal to pass a law that isn't constitutional.  But our legal system has become an obstacle to removing bad laws that trample lives, and the government is using that legal system to trample your rights. That is where the law is being broken.  I can't make it any plainer than that.  I'm flabbergasted folks don't understand this or see when their rights are being violated by "laws". 

 

Our public education system has done it's job over the last 50 years.  Americans have learned what to think, not how to think.

[Mr VJP]

Government is NOT your friend!

 

[Mr VJP]

Think!

 

[Mr VJP]

And lastly.......

[Dinsdale]

Government is NOT your friend!

 

 

I didn't read many of the posts in this thread but that sums ALL of it up right there for me.

[Two Track]

When the second amendment is gone, the first and fourth will be next.  There will be nothing left to give the government any pause to just barge into someone's house or prevent them from speaking out on anything.  That is one of the reasons the second amendment exists.

[Doc]

 

As far as a nation of laws go, I say again, if the laws are constitutional, I will support them.  If they are unconstitutional, I will not.  I took an oath to defend and uphold the constitution, and that is exactly what I intend to do. And many of my peers are of like mind......

 

It's not legal to pass a law that isn't constitutional.  ....... 

 

I'm sure you understand that we have a judicial branch of the government that is responsible for determining the constitutionality of laws. Defining constitutionality is not the job of individual citizens or the law enforcement people. We do not pick and choose what laws to abide by based on our opinion. I would hope that our law enforcement agencies have not assumed the responsibilities of picking and choosing what laws to enforce or obey based on their notion of what is or is not constitutional. With all due respect, I must point out that they are not educated or capable of doing that and it is in no way their responsibility or right. We are all allowed our opinion, but no authority automatically goes along with having an opinion.