New anti-gun ad

[Five Seasons]

16 hours ago, left field said:

there were a good number of teen suicides in that time. So what? Are they somehow not real gun deaths? Do they not apply? I don't even know what that means.

 

The ad created an analogy of a loose tiger in the house around kids playing and at the end put up the stat that firearms are the leading cause of death for children, very very strongly implying that reckless and careless gun owners leaving loaded firearms around the house are killing more kids than anything else.

If you recall my first post and a few other members posts, nobody is not advocating for locking up firearms. It's the only thing I like about the new gun laws and of course I've been in compliance with even before my oldest was born. 

However, if you remove suicide from those stats, it's not the leading cause of death. Which would change the narrative that kids aren't dying more than anything else from accidental shootings therefore ruining the whole "loose tiger in the house" narrative.

What some of us are taking exception to is something that the media has run wildly unchecked with for some time now, and that is manipulating or falsely representing data. COVID is a great example. Most reasonable americans know that covid is real and the first few strains were deadly even for some healthy people. But there was a while early on where many deaths that were not covid deaths were labeled as covid and it very falsely misrepresented the mortality rate, especially considering there were not tests so we didn't know how many people had it and survived.

The fact that you can't see why including suicide deaths in an ad about securing guns is a problem is alarming. I had a coworker whose teen son hung himself. If they want out, they'll find a way.

[johnplav]

14 minutes ago, Belo said:

I mean it's not every day but it's pretty close. News 10 just had an interview from a mom whos 3 year old was shot. Those numbers, btw are included in this data.

Thank God that poor kid survived being shot… so he won’t be included in those numbers, but I get what you are saying.  For those who don’t know the story, he was in a car in front of a store and was caught in the crossfire.  Two people were charged with the shooting, one was 16.  

[left field]

4 hours ago, Belo said:

The ad created an analogy of a loose tiger in the house around kids playing and at the end put up the stat that firearms are the leading cause of death for children, very very strongly implying that reckless and careless gun owners leaving loaded firearms around the house are killing more kids than anything else.

If you recall my first post and a few other members posts, nobody is not advocating for locking up firearms. It's the only thing I like about the new gun laws and of course I've been in compliance with even before my oldest was born. 

However, if you remove suicide from those stats, it's not the leading cause of death. Which would change the narrative that kids aren't dying more than anything else from accidental shootings therefore ruining the whole "loose tiger in the house" narrative.

What some of us are taking exception to is something that the media has run wildly unchecked with for some time now, and that is manipulating or falsely representing data. COVID is a great example. Most reasonable americans know that covid is real and the first few strains were deadly even for some healthy people. But there was a while early on where many deaths that were not covid deaths were labeled as covid and it very falsely misrepresented the mortality rate, especially considering there were not tests so we didn't know how many people had it and survived.

The fact that you can't see why including suicide deaths in an ad about securing guns is a problem is alarming. I had a coworker whose teen son hung himself. If they want out, they'll find a way.

Hey Belo - I'm honestly not trying to be a contrarian here. I thought the ad was silly hyperbole but it not the first ad to use that approach. 

Put aside the tiger thing for a moment and there are two points being made. 1. it's not unreasonable to ask your friends to secure their firearms before you kids play there; and 2. guns are now the leading cause of death among children. 

1. I don't think anyone here disagrees with this. I have a lot of non-gun owners bring their kids here and I go out of my way to show that my guns are secure, though when I'm alone they can often be out. I have zero issue if they ask. 

2. Statistics are a very generalized and at times an imperfect tally of something. In a measurement of deaths, all gun deaths are added together and therefore, suicide by gun is a gun death. I would even suggest that there have been kids who have found a friend's unsecured weapon and killed themselves. Where do we count accidental gun deaths? 

So, back to the ad. A kid finds an unsecured gun at someone's house and shoots his buddy - gun death. Another kid finds an unsecured gun and screws around and accidentally shoots his buddy or himself - gun death. The last kid finds the weapon and kills himself - gun death.

This goes very deep and into a lot of different areas. I'm sorry to hear about your coworker's son. There was a kid down the road from me that hung himself a few months ago. I can't imagine the horror of losing a child like that.

[Five Seasons]

I feel like you understand what I'm saying but still don't find issue with accidental and intentional acts of self arm being lumped together as concerning. You're overestimating the intelligence of many american's and in 30s they don't even think to question the source of the data. So yes, a gun death is a gun death. But is suicide something that should drive gun regulations or should we maybe focus on mental health? Because if it's not a gun, it's a bridge or pills or a rope etc. 

[left field]

I don't disagree at all. Mental health is a very big issue and one that deserves more attention, money, and study. It really raises some uncomfortable questions - why do more American kids (or adults) kill themselves than people in other countries? Is it a failing of the culture? Our society. The school system? Parenting? I have no idea.

I would also be curious as whether easy access to a gun results in more spontaneous acts of suicide. Do the steps of taking pills or setting up a rope give one the opportunity for a second thought? I really don't know.

Yes, I consider every death by gun a gun death. I'm having trouble understanding why you separate suicide. Is your argument that suicide isn't using guns as they were intended? I'll ask again, accidental discharge that results in a death. Gun death?

[Nomad]

I don’t know the stats , but I’ve been to a fair number of suicides but none  by gun . I was surprised at first by the number who hung themselves ,that’s actually pretty gruesome neck stretches ,lips and tongue purple and bloated .

Pills and booze is up,there as well, one lady took pills and half a bottle of Wild Turkey , we found her standing in a bathtub of water holding a plugged in radio ,wearing her girdle . I ripped the cord out of the wall and we grabbed her.

Jumpers seem to be the number one way , my crew got a couple of those to not jump ,at least that day . Jumpers are a daily call .

Edited October 6, 2022 by Nomad

[crappyice]

I don't disagree at all. Mental health is a very big issue and one that deserves more attention, money, and study. It really raises some uncomfortable questions - why do more American kids (or adults) kill themselves than people in other countries? Is it a failing of the culture? Our society. The school system? Parenting? I have no idea.
I would also be curious as whether easy access to a gun results in more spontaneous acts of suicide. Do the steps of taking pills or setting up a rope give one the opportunity for a second thought? I really don't know.
Yes, I consider every death by gun a gun death. I'm having trouble understanding why you separate suicide. Is your argument that suicide isn't using guns as they were intended? I'll ask again, accidental discharge that results in a death. Gun death?

Would a locked gun prevent a suicide by gun? Suicidal people are motivated to be successful and will find the key.
Accidentals are certainly greatly reduced when locked.


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[left field]

48 minutes ago, Nomad said:

I don’t know the stats , but I’ve been to a fair number of suicides but none  by gun . I was surprised at first by the number who hung themselves ,that’s actually pretty gruesome neck stretches ,lips and tongue purple and bloated .

Pills and booze is up,there as well, one lady took pills and half a bottle of Wild Turkey , we found her standing in a bathtub of water holding a plugged in radio ,wearing her girdle . I ripped the cord out of the wall and we grabbed her.

Jumpers seem to be the number one way , my crew got a couple of those to not jump ,at least that day . Jumpers are a daily call .

There's a documentary called The Bridge about suicides off the Golden Gate Bridge - the number one jumping spot in the world. The crew trained cameras on the bridge for a year and witnessed all kinds of people jumping or just sitting on the edge and thinking about it for hours. Some jumpers survived the fall and when interviewed after they said that the moment they stepped off they saw the solution to their problem.

You had a tough job, Nomad. My father tried to kill himself twice by hanging. In each case, I was home alone with him and had to cut him down. The first time I was 12, the second 16. He eventually decided that liquor was the more fun way to go and drank himself to death at 49.

Those scars cut to the bone.

15 minutes ago, crappyice said:

Would a locked gun prevent a suicide by gun? Suicidal people are motivated to be successful and will find the key.
Accidentals are certainly greatly reduced when locked.

I think my locked gun would be safe from anyone trying to kill themselves, but yes, motivated people tend to be successful. 

[johnplav]

19 minutes ago, crappyice said:

Would a locked gun prevent a suicide by gun? Suicidal people are motivated to be successful and will find the key.
Accidentals are certainly greatly reduced when locked.


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That commercial alludes to a firearm accidentally killing a kid.  That accounts for just over 5% of “kid” gun deaths.  If we assume it’s a legally owned gun, I’m sure that number drops even more.  I guess I just don’t like that scenario displayed like it’s the way kids are actually getting killed. 
 

[Nomad]

1 minute ago, left field said:

There's a documentary called The Bridge about suicides off the Golden Gate Bridge - the number one jumping spot in the world. The crew trained cameras on the bridge for a year and witnessed all kinds of people jumping or just sitting on the edge and thinking about it for hours. Some jumpers survived the fall and when interviewed after they said that the moment they stepped off they saw the solution to their problem.

You had a tough job, Nomad. My father tried to kill himself twice by hanging. In each case, I was home alone with him and had to cut him down. The first time I was 12, the second 16. He eventually decided that liquor was the more fun way to go and drank himself to death at 49.

Those scars cut to the bone.

I think my locked gun would be safe from anyone trying to kill themselves, but yes, motivated people tend to be successful. 

I’m so sorry to hear that, I hesitated on posting the discretion of hangings , because you just don’t know what those reading may have dealt with .

One of my worst calls was cpr on an infant, the mother pounded her fists on my back screaming for me to save her baby , which I knew wasn’t going to happen . 
 

my guns are all,locked up and the one wall hanger that I don’t even have ammo for,gets put away if kids are visiting, which is rare .

[Waterfowler]

I think we can all agree that our guns should be secured from kids. As silly as that commercial is I only have a problem with the last line. Misleading, and sad that some believe those stats. Just pushing a agenda.

Just like the anti Zeldin commercial. Saying that 5 police officers died/killed at Jan 6th(don’t remember exact wording but was very misleading) 4 committed suicide, weeks, months later and 1 had a medical issue. But they know people are gullible and believe everything they hear and don’t question anything. Just like those stats

[left field]

1 hour ago, Nomad said:

I’m so sorry to hear that, I hesitated on posting the discretion of hangings , because you just don’t know what those reading may have dealt with .

All good, but thanks.

[Five Seasons]

14 hours ago, Waterfowler said:

I think we can all agree that our guns should be secured from kids.

exactly, we're all saying the same thing. suicide or accident, if you have kids at home and honestly even if you don't because people do get robbed, lock up your f'n guns.

Just don't parade around to the world that most of our kids die from the loaded glock in the sock drawer and I'll support your message. 

I have plenty of deer on the walls for any of my kids parents to assume I own guns, I've never been asked but wouldn't have an issue if someone did ask either. It would be a slight bruise to my ego though as that might imply they may think I'm an irresponsible parent, but again I wouldn't be bothered or triggered if they did.