NYODN was interesting......

[dbHunterNY]

I agree with Phade in the sense that earn a buck rules can create an itchy trigger finger to shoot the first thing that appears to be without bone on it's head.  it's a problem throughout the season but I think it's elevated versus doe only seasons.  I'm for promoting earliest take of doe within our season dates.  however, I don't completely like the idea of short week or two season doe only period.  puts temptation there to shoot a buck in the doe only season and then wait a week to say you shot it later in the bow season.  also some won't like the idea of no chance at all to go after a buck when they normally would.  both things we could live and deal with though.  so I guess I'm on the fence with that specific idea.  i guess I've seen more landowners refuse to fill doe tags due to what they think are low numbers, which makes me be more for increasing opportunity or numbers of doe tags before complex seasons or limiting buck harvest completely by having doe only seasons.

[Doc]

It seems that we all have our own favorite little boondoggles that we want to add to deer hunting. In reality, most of these are simply ineffectual, unnecessary complications that are easily thwarted, and rendered useless. Buck hunters who do not want to shoot does will in fact remain buck hunters who do not shoot does no matter what kinds of pop-management schemes that we concoct. But one thing is fairly certain. No serious population control is going to depend on seasons like archery or muzzle-loader for success. If the DEC is serious about knocking down herd sizes, then there is no reason for not going straight for the one season that has a chance of having a substantial impact, and that would be the regular gun season. You want  to wipe out a substantial percentage of does, turn on a "doe-only day" or three at the outset of the regular gun season and you will see the woods run red and the herd will be butchered down to a level that will satisfy even the most rabid of anti-deer special interest groups. Never mind this pussy-footing around with bowhunters and muzzleloaders. Go for the gold and put all those gun-hunters to work for you. They'll wack-em and stack-em for you, and really put the "hunt" back into hunting.

[phade]

No serious population control is going to depend on seasons like archery or muzzle-loader for success.

 

I certainly understand your reasoning and I agree with many of your thoughts, but that is simply not true. Bow and muzzleloader can be a serious population control method.

Edited March 23, 2015 by phade

[Doc]

I certainly understand your reasoning and I agree with many of your thoughts, but that is simply not true. Bow and muzzleloader can be a serious population control method.

I guess I'll have to see the harvest numbers next time to see what season I would go after if I wanted to get the biggest bang for the buck, but I still believe that would be the regular gun season. So if I had what I thought was a serious plan for population control, I think I know where I would implement it.

[phade]

I guess I'll have to see the harvest numbers next time to see what season I would go after if I wanted to get the biggest bang for the buck, but I still believe that would be the regular gun season. So if I had what I thought was a serious plan for population control, I think I know where I would implement it.

 

New York averaged about 67% for regular gun season harvest for 2012-2013 seasons. Seems pretty clear within a vacuum. Problem is, we're not in a vacuum. 

 

Other states have went through what we are going through with expanded muzzleloader and bow opportunities - the representation of regular gun season starts to take a precipitous drop. Crossbow harvest will increase in the foreseeable future - and you don't get as much cannibalism of vertical bowkills as one would think. Muzzleloader take will increase, especially if they implement the antlerless seasons. It all dilutes the take from gun. The northeast average regular gun take is 55% - and some of these states are heavy xbow/muzzleloader states - they're well below 50% regular gun take.

 

The conventional thinking has always been gun hunting gets the job done. I strongly support gun-only hunters just as much as bowhunters or multi-season hunters. But, there is a trend toward diluted impact of regular gun season because of the growth of the bow/muzzleloader crowd. Ohio, which arguably has the strongest xbow history, had 191k deer harvested in 13-14. Only 85k of that was from regular gun. We likely won't be that extreme, but make no qualms about it, the impact of regular gun isn't going to be 67% in 5 years, or even after numbers come out this year (probably 65%).

[growalot]

 

. Ohio, which arguably has the strongest xbow history, had 191k deer harvested in 13-14. Only 85k of that was from regular gun. We likely won't be that extreme, but make no qualms about it, the impact of regular gun isn't going to be 67% in 5 years, or even after numbers come out this year (probably 65%).

Now, do you think that season dates may have a large impact on those numbers?...for example I looked up 2014-2015 white tail deer hunting dates for Ohio.

 

Archery                      Sept27 thru Feb1

 

Antler less ML             Oct 11 and Oct 12th

 

Youth hunt                   Nov 22 and Nov 23

 

Gun season                 Dec1 thru Dec 7th

 

ML                               Jan 2-Jan 5th

[phade]

Now, do you think that season dates may have a large impact on those numbers?...for example I looked up 2014-2015 white tail deer hunting dates for Ohio.

Archery Sept27 thru Feb1

Antler less ML Oct 11 and Oct 12th

Youth hunt Nov 22 and Nov 23

Gun season Dec1 thru Dec 7th

ML Jan 2-Jan 5th

The majority of gun harvests happen in the first portion - a 23 day season vs. a 16 day season won't net much difference in the overall harvest because of the fact that most gun harvests happen on the front end. That's why shorter gun seasons are just as effective at harvest numbers as our 23 day season.

The harvest numbers for December and January bow are minuscule; the bulk of their harvest comes at the same time ours does - Oct. and Nov. Ohio provides in-season updates on harvests, so this is a known trend.

Ohio also isn't the only state where this happens...there's a few here in the NE.

Is it a factor? Yes. How often has the DEC thought about shortening gun season? Its looking into it now for the first time in modern history. Even at a time where overpop exists. The value of the almighty gun is still high but it is no longer the 500lb infallable gorilla in the room.

Edited March 23, 2015 by phade

[gjs4]

I am trying to figure out why we aren't asking how they've decided the population of does is too high (let alone during winter).... They base so much off the take (which is nearly doubled off reported numbers) but where are the scientific census mechanisms? Let me throw out another deer theory to become fact ; it won't be long before everyone but the dec is crying there are no deer around anymore

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[nyslowhand]

^^ Bingo ^^! There is no possible way to perform any scientific census of the deer population, understandably it's all guess-timation. Below is a quote from DEC's website, NY's Deer Mgmt and specifically the Data Collection section:

 

"DEC staff inspect deer at check stations, meat cutters, and elsewhere and review mandatory "report cards." These yield information on age, sex, physical condition and location of deer harvested. We combine this with information from fieldwork, surveys and public input to assess deer populations and habitat conditions. We refine the deer management program as necessary to provide the best program possible."

 

Don't know this for a fact, but betting the insurance & agricultural industries have a huge lobbying presence with the DEC. They'd probably just as soon see the whitetail become extinct than to pay out annual claims for car-deer accidents, agr crop damage or attempt to protect their investments. The DEC's surveys are a joke. Last Bow Hunters Survey I filled out, I reported seeing 60-70 deer at one specific location (township). Which were the same 10-12+ deer being sighted numerous times. So,..the DEC assumed I had 60-70 deer within that specific location? Overpopulation..? Also curious to know what "public input to assess deer populations and habitat conditions" means or entails. Sounds subjective.

[sweet old bill]

I suggested they have a simple survey that you filled out as you went to get your tags.

 

did you hunt last year, if yes what area, how many days, bow or gun or both.

how many deer did you see in the area , doe, bucks

 

did you take a doe or buck, how many points, with gun or bow

 

suggestions for changes to the hunting season.

 

I think this would give better insight in the local areas if implemented

[Doc]

New York averaged about 67% for regular gun season harvest for 2012-2013 seasons.

Well, we can predict and project all we want, but the fact is that the numbers show very clearly that right today regular gun season is far and away the current heavy-hitter and most likely to be for a good many decades yet. If you want to experiment with population control plans today, it is obvious where those plans should be implemented. No question about that. So I still have to ask again, why are these changes being done with the minority part of the hunting population. Are they serious about their plans or not? Never mind about theoretical projections decades off into the future. The fact is that the plan they are proposing is now.

[Doc]

Don't know this for a fact, but betting the insurance & agricultural industries have a huge lobbying presence with the DEC. They'd probably just as soon see the whitetail become extinct than to pay out annual claims for car-deer accidents, agr crop damage or attempt to protect their investments. Also curious to know what "public input to assess deer populations and habitat conditions" means or entails. Sounds subjective.

What is at play here is the "Citizen Task Force" system exerting it's influence on deer take objectives. If you look at all the different disciplines represented as possible CTF candidates, they seem to be weighted heavily toward what I call "anti-deer" interests:

 

"Stakeholders are people affected by deer who have a particular concern or interest in the overall population of deer in a WMU. Farmers, hunters, foresters, conservationists, motorists, the tourism industry, landowners, small business, etc, are all considered as potentially distinct stakeholder groups."

 

Look closely at the likely attitudes toward deer populations of each variety of "stakeholder". That may explain the heavy emphasis on all these almost panicky DEC obsessions with constant plans for cutting deer populations.

[dbHunterNY]

I am trying to figure out why we aren't asking how they've decided the population of does is too high (let alone during winter).... They base so much off the take (which is nearly doubled off reported numbers) but where are the scientific census mechanisms? Let me throw out another deer theory to become fact ; it won't be long before everyone but the dec is crying there are no deer around anymore

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

it's not just DEC.  some of us also think there's too many deer given the resources and habitat they've got.  we don't have a model but do things like browse surveys, best effort towards trail cameras surveys, co-ops and hunt clubs many times collect harvest data, and many survey deer numbers with their own eye balls to compare common sightings numbers.  the problem why people argue and say there's going to be no deer is that many make a generalized statement saying there's too many deer and just whackem' all.  in reality we ALL know there's little deer in some areas and loads of deer in other areas.  localized john smith says there's too many deer and they're eating everything in sight but down the road due to habitat or hunting pressure there's no deer on bob's farm.  he's thinks it's because john smith is whacking all of them when he maybe takes two a season.  there is a finite but approximate number to harvest when it comes to doe and everything will be fine.  most people in areas with higher numbers can't even fathom that number though, let alone successfully harvest that many even if they have tags in their pockets.  doe in an area are easy to kill until you start shooting at them.

 

 

^^ Bingo ^^! There is no possible way to perform any scientific census of the deer population, understandably it's all guess-timation. Below is a quote from DEC's website, NY's Deer Mgmt and specifically the Data Collection section:

 

"DEC staff inspect deer at check stations, meat cutters, and elsewhere and review mandatory "report cards." These yield information on age, sex, physical condition and location of deer harvested. We combine this with information from fieldwork, surveys and public input to assess deer populations and habitat conditions. We refine the deer management program as necessary to provide the best program possible."

 

Don't know this for a fact, but betting the insurance & agricultural industries have a huge lobbying presence with the DEC. They'd probably just as soon see the whitetail become extinct than to pay out annual claims for car-deer accidents, agr crop damage or attempt to protect their investments. The DEC's surveys are a joke. Last Bow Hunters Survey I filled out, I reported seeing 60-70 deer at one specific location (township). Which were the same 10-12+ deer being sighted numerous times. So,..the DEC assumed I had 60-70 deer within that specific location? Overpopulation..? Also curious to know what "public input to assess deer populations and habitat conditions" means or entails. Sounds subjective.

 

every one knows you can't do an absolute census of the deer population.  not like anyone understands we can freeze time and go looking under every bush.  there's lots of ways to approximately figure out numbers of deer in the area and ways to figure out if there's too many.  I know for a fact that agricultural entities have a political pull when it comes to deer regulations in some cases.  most hunted land in NY is private, with much of it being farms whether it's for a little veg stand or a dairy farm with hundreds of head.  if they tick off farmers then hunting access takes a dive, among other things.

[dbHunterNY]

I suggested they have a simple survey that you filled out as you went to get your tags.

 

did you hunt last year, if yes what area, how many days, bow or gun or both.

how many deer did you see in the area , doe, bucks

 

did you take a doe or buck, how many points, with gun or bow

 

suggestions for changes to the hunting season.

 

I think this would give better insight in the local areas if implemented

 

the more hunters work with DEC the better.  I wish they'd have people fill out more surveys, but I also wish they had more resources and better ways to process the data.  I don't know any details about contracts but I'd bet Cornell isn't cheap.

[phade]

Well, we can predict and project all we want, but the fact is that the numbers show very clearly that right today regular gun season is far and away the current heavy-hitter and most likely to be for a good many decades yet. If you want to experiment with population control plans today, it is obvious where those plans should be implemented. No question about that. So I still have to ask again, why are these changes being done with the minority part of the hunting population. Are they serious about their plans or not? Never mind about theoretical projections decades off into the future. The fact is that the plan they are proposing is now.

 

Gun season is likely going to be dropping this past year (14), this year, and likely each year for the foreseeable future as xbow kills go up, muzzleloader seasons are placed, and if they do decide to shorten gun season as has been considered, that will also dilute gun's impact. This also doesn't include full archery inclusion for xbow, which as much as people might want to deny, is going to happen at some point soon. All of this is possible within the very short term future - ie now - because its all been placed on the table by the DEC.

 

You think gun is going is going to remain the heavy hitter for many decades? There are just too many things pushing against it to think that imo. In five years, the gun take is going to be a fair amount less than it was in 12-13. 

 

Instead of putting all of their eggs in one basket, the DEC is looking at all options. That I commend them for, but beyond that, they're not doing much to really help this situation.

Edited March 24, 2015 by phade

[dbHunterNY]

Well, we can predict and project all we want, but the fact is that the numbers show very clearly that right today regular gun season is far and away the current heavy-hitter and most likely to be for a good many decades yet. If you want to experiment with population control plans today, it is obvious where those plans should be implemented. No question about that. So I still have to ask again, why are these changes being done with the minority part of the hunting population. Are they serious about their plans or not? Never mind about theoretical projections decades off into the future. The fact is that the plan they are proposing is now.

 

capability of gun hunters makes it a heavy hitter... I'm with you there.  this is the only reliable info i can bring to readily.... from what I've seen you need both, bow/ml seasons are significant to where without them shotguns and rifles can't.  co-ops in this region generally do their fair share of doe harvest.  out of all the co-ops represented in four counties here ours did the best doe harvest percentage wise and we're the largest in acreage.  our numbers were split even and favoring bow/ml doe harvest.  there was plenty of tags to go around and encouragement during reg season to harvest doe.  also we didn't get our DMAP tags from DEC for the co-op until mid way through early bow.  many held off shooting until we finally got those DMAPs as they didn't want to burn their either sex tag on a doe.  i think a lot of factors play into it.  the regular season only tag holders weren't shooting doe as it wasn't something they're accustomed to doing.  also many don't want to ring out a bang the first two weeks of reg gun as they think that's prime time to see that buck they're after and don't want to mess with their hunt/chances.  also we all know that after the first days of rifle season deer have caught on and get a bit on edge and wary.  so i guess given our situation in NY, that I've seen at least, i can't fully agree that rifle/shotguns are the solution that'd trump all others so readily.  one can't pull the cart without the other and there's no lead dog or horse in my mind.  i can't see things changing enough to change that either.  my opinion and what i know.... as if we all don't have one. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by dbHunterNY

[Doc]

i can't fully agree that rifle/shotguns are the solution that'd trump all others so readily.  one can't pull the cart without the other and there's no lead dog or horse in my mind.  i can't see things changing enough to change that either.  my opinion and what i know.... as if we all don't have one. 

No body but the DEC is saying that you need to make a choice. But they have decided that archery and muzzleloader alone and without help from the regular gun season is what is going to bring the doe harvest up significantly enough to make a difference. I am questioning that decision. I am saying that that indicates a lack of commitment to their plan.

[phade]

No body but the DEC is saying that you need to make a choice. But they have decided that archery and muzzleloader alone and without help from the regular gun season is what is going to bring the doe harvest up significantly enough to make a difference. I am questioning that decision. I am saying that that indicates a lack of commitment to their plan.

 

If they foresee gun having less of an impact going forward, it only make sense to pour resources in the best growing segments.

 

Muzzleloader antlerless, as much as I despise the idea, is pretty much the common go to option across most state agencies.

Edited March 24, 2015 by phade

[Doc]

If they foresee gun having less of an impact going forward, it only make sense to pour resources in the best growing segments.

 

Muzzleloader antlerless, as much as I despise the idea, is pretty much the common go to option across most state agencies.

Well, we are only guessing at what they are foreseeing aren't we? The fact is that right now, at the time they are talking about implementing immediate action, the regular gun season is far and away more efficient for implementing a plan to cut today's deer herd, and is likely to be that way for another decade or two at least or in fact perhaps forever, so why are they excluding that season from action. It just doesn't make any sense.

[growalot]

It makes sense when looking at a STATE run agency under the control of a gun hating administration...You will see what they consider a safer gun..ie ML, increase in opportunities...crossbows extended and  "regular" gun season cut shorter.

[phade]

It makes sense when looking at a STATE run agency under the control of a gun hating administration...You will see what they consider a safer gun..ie ML, increase in opportunities...crossbows extended and  "regular" gun season cut shorter.

 

100% agree.

 

For some reason, people have a hard time seeing guns becoming less important - not necessarily for the right reasons - just because that is what the current trend toward the future state is likely to be.

[growalot]

[phade]

Well, we are only guessing at what they are foreseeing aren't we? The fact is that right now, at the time they are talking about implementing immediate action, the regular gun season is far and away more efficient for implementing a plan to cut today's deer herd, and is likely to be that way for another decade or two at least or in fact perhaps forever, so why are they excluding that season from action. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

No, inclusion of xbow is a fact. In year 1 of this, they are going to account for 1.4-1.7% of total harvest...and that's with little notice/prep. As seasons go on, the market will need to be saturated before the impact on gun's proportional take levels off. That's not arguable - there's been an introduction of a new weapon type that is going to dilute gun's proportional take. No guessing there.

 

There's also alot of inertia against gun season staying in its current shape - at least from a discussion perspective, a first in modern history.

 

Second, there is no guessing about the muzzleloader seasons, they'll be happening unless populations in those areas somehow magically get dropped. That again further dilutes the gun take proportion.

 

And, many of the areas where this overpopulation exists is due to no firearms hunting (say 8C), limited access (8H), and suburban areas where gun hunting can be prohibitive due to space. I don't see how simply asking gun owners to paint the town red is the key because they haven't done it to the levels they need to, even when they are the biggest proportion right now. There needs to be a multi-faceted approach to this (whether the DEC is right or wrong about the numbers) and gun owners already have tags and 23 days to burn.

Edited March 24, 2015 by phade

[nyslowhand]

Apparently I'm one of those individuals that isn't grasping the DEC's big picture or I simply have tunnel vision. Seems to be pretty obvious, in my feeble mind, if the goal is to get more deer harvested in the SZ overpopulated areas, why not have a any legal weapon season Nov 1st thru the weekend after Thanksgiving. Even if only for a trial peroid. Isn't regular (gun) season in the SZ "less important" strictly due to when it falls on the calendar relative to the deer's annual life cycle?

[phade]

Apparently I'm one of those individuals that isn't grasping the DEC's big picture or I simply have tunnel vision. Seems to be pretty obvious, in my feeble mind, if the goal is to get more deer harvested in the SZ overpopulated areas, why not have a any legal weapon season Nov 1st thru the weekend after Thanksgiving. Even if only for a trial peroid. Isn't regular (gun) season in the SZ "less important" strictly due to when it falls on the calendar relative to the deer's annual life cycle?

 

I don't think it's strictly harvest numbers/days afield w/ a specific weapon that they believe is an issue. I think it's the mindset that hunters are not simply pulling the trigger despite the tags being there already. Hence the talk about antlerless days.