Cornell campus buck...

[HectorBuckBuster]

Well my business is right in Ithaca, down near Kmart, Walmart area, and I have gone out my back door at night and there is a huge buck living in this little brush lot not bigger then 10 yards by 10 yards and this buck lays there all the time. At my old business location which was on rt 13 next to Mano's Diner, there was some old tractor trailer box's out back and we would see deer laying under them all the time.

[nyantler]

Doc, you really need to read a little more.. I don't know where you come up with the crap you put out... but it really is nonsense..the reason urban areas have such large bucks is because nobody hunts there!!!! there is also NO correlation betrweem the number of doe and the size of bucks...the reason management plans want to bring the doe population down is so as the buck population grows from passing on young bucks, there ration will balance out. This is almost getting comical with you because you absolutely no NOTHING about whitetail deer. Open a book why don't you and learn something instead of spouting your BS.

[Doc]

Doc, you really need to read a little more.. I don't know where you come up with the crap you put out... but it really is nonsense..the reason urban areas have such large bucks is because nobody hunts there!!!! there is also NO correlation betrweem the number of doe and the size of bucks...the reason management plans want to bring the doe population down is so as the buck population grows from passing on young bucks, there ration will balance out. This is almost getting comical with you because you absolutely no NOTHING about whitetail deer. Open a book why don't you and learn something instead of spouting your BS.

My-my such an aggressive reaction. You really need a course in anger management ..... lol. Look, I am simply asking questions. If you don't actually know the answer, there is no need to go postal about it. I'm hoping to hear from reasonable people about why they think the gender ratio thing doesn't seem to apply in urban and suburban settings. I thought this line of questions might be a bit controversial, but I didn't realize that I could not ask a question or two without some flaming psycho getting his panties all twisted in a bunch.

[HectorBuckBuster]

All I can tell you if you drive through Cayuga Heights area where this buck is, you can see upwards of 25-40 deer in a few minutes. I know they have tried to sterlize some of the deer up in that area. There is a huge fight going on in CH over the deer, some people want a hunt, others people want to trap and relocate them (please trap that big buck, I have a very nice farm to move him to lol) , and then some people have enough money they are willing to pay to have the deer fixed (a few years ago a older lady donated money to have like 50 deer sterlized. Also you guys hammer Doc, but he maybe on to something. These deer are located in area's that there is easy food sources all year long, and this maybe why some of these bucks are healthier during the winter, so maybe there antler growth comes on faster. I know they have less hunting pressure if any so the stress left could be lot less on these deer. Sure they can grow older to, but also have to have the food source and good genes too. Maybe all the stuff used to make the golf course pretty is helping this bucks rack grow to. Sorry there are alot of people, books, and everything eabout whitetail deer, but there are still more questions about deer unanswered then answered.

[Doc]

I dont think you need a 1:1 doe ratio to have monster bucks. They tell you thats what you want to try to obtain to have an ideal situation. Lets say, for example, your property has a carrying capacity of 20 deer. Wouldn't you rather have 10 does and 10 bucks than 18 does and 2 bucks? Also, if your ratio is closer to 1:1 you'll see these bigger bucks more often because they actually have to search for does instead of having a ton of them to pick from. If a 1:1 ratio was absolutely necessary to have monster bucks you would never see them! I see monster bucks on the public land I hunt and its not even close to a 1:1 ratio. That ratio is just a number to try to obtain in a perfect world!

I have always understood that the 1:1 gender ratio (or 2:1 ... other opinions) was an optimum herd health and optimum breeding success requirement. Perhaps I don't have that correct. That's why I am asking. The urban and suburban settings have herds that are some of the very healthiest and ever-expanding herds of the day, but don't really have that ratio or even close. Based on that, I thought this 1:1 ratio thing at least deserved a question and a bit of discussion.

[bubba]

all I know is if that guy was in my neighborhood, I would want him breeding all the does around to make more just like him. Doc if you decide to take the advice and read up on deer to become an armchair expert as others profess to be, look closely at the intention of the material. Dont believe that every book on qdm is factual or unbiased. Actually do some biology study reading and books on a deers progress through life.  Now come on smarten up.  ;D  I know you would prefer to know something than "no nothing."

[SplitG2]

Doc, I think deer gender ratio is a good question.  Maybe you should start a seperate thread so this one doesn't get highjacked.

[Doc]

Doc, I think deer gender ratio is a good question.  Maybe you should start a seperate thread so this one doesn't get highjacked.

Lol .... I'm kind of sorry I brought it up at all. Geeze... I don't want to get old nyantler going psycho on me again by devoting a whole thread to it. I think I'll just let it die a natural death here and forget about it.

Doc

[Localqdm]

That is a great buck!  Don't want to argue, just curious as to why some think there wouldn't be a close buck:doe ratio in unhunted areas?  NYantler, I think your post was pretty harsh. 

[HectorBuckBuster]

If you every drove through Cayuga Heights you would not have a problem of seeing atleast 20-30 Does before you see a buck.I was driving through there on a side street one day and went around a corner and there was like 10 deer standing in the ditches eating.

[nyantler]

Doc, I think deer gender ratio is a good question.  Maybe you should start a seperate thread so this one doesn't get highjacked.

Lol .... I'm kind of sorry I brought it up at all. Geeze... I don't want to get old nyantler going psycho on me again by devoting a whole thread to it. I think I'll just let it die a natural death here and forget about it.

Doc

If you read a little.. you would know that the 1:1 ratio that is talked about is what mother nature would produce if man wasn't involved in changing population, reducing habitat and so forth... if you also read more about management plans.. most maintain that given the current circumstances with amount of habitat and hunting pressure 3:1 would be acceptable, still allowing for a good age structure in the buck population.

Without restrictions on the harvesting of young bucks, reduction in doe population just reduces the entire herd population.

I'm perfectly ok with guys questioning management plans.. or even being against QDM, but you spout stuff that has no basis in truth.. before you go telling people what is wrong with QDM.. get your facts straight about what it is that the plan is designed to do and the reasons why.

Bubba is right about not taking everything that your hear or read about QDM as gospel, but at least read about who started the concept and why it was even concieved.

I just find that the people that know the least about QDM are the first to knock it

[nyantler]

Oh and Doc, you must have had me fired up.. look at all the typos in that rant I posted about you... But I feel better now. ;D

[Localqdm]

In unhunted areas I often see lots of bucks.  yeah you see lots of groups of 'does' too, but those are very often groups of fawns too, w/ one third of them being buck fawns.  Off hand observations can be pretty misleading.  Even though I agree w/qdm and support the taking of does in areas w/stable deer populations, I don't agree w/the argument that many qdmer's make that there are super skewed buck:doe ratios.  Most of these statements are made  by observations during the season (when the population does get skewed again until the BB sprout their horns next season).  In actuality I think its pretty hard to get past 3:1 unless you target BB on purpose. 

For those who disagree, try the math.  Take a sample group.  Eliminate every buck and let every doe walk.  Add to that group a fawn birth of 50% buck fawns.  Then eliminate every yearling buck for the next season.  Add the next crop of fawns.  Keep it going.  Its pretty hard to get the depressing %s a lot of "qdmer's" claim.

[nyantler]

I would agree that some QDMers go overboard with how skewed they claim the ratios are. And I also agree that getting better than 3:1 would be a difficult task. But, the more difficult task is educating some hunters of the benefits of a good overall deer management program that involves protecting young bucks. I think the biggest resistance lies with guys not having the self restraint to pass up a buck. I think if the DEC issued all hunters 1 tag where they could harvest either sex. There would so called "meat" hunters that would pass on a doe for 1.5 yr old buck. just my opinion

[Doc]

Oh and Doc, you must have had me fired up.. look at all the typos in that rant I posted about you... But I feel better now. ;D

Well, I must say that you seem to lose control pretty easy, and you certainly get awfully defensive about absolutely nothing. I get the impression that you read the first few words and then went berserk with assumptions of what the rest of the post was about without ever reading it. Your irrational responses certainly seem to indicate that.

I'm perfectly ok with guys questioning management plans.. or even being against QDM, but you spout stuff that has no basis in truth.. before you go telling people what is wrong with QDM.. get your facts straight about what it is that the plan is designed to do and the reasons why.

The reason that I say that you never read beyond the first few words is that there is nowhere in that post where I even hinted that I was "telling people what is wrong with QDM". As a matter of fact I have absolutely no problem with QDM or those that practice it. I do occasionally ask a few questions about the concepts, which I assume is still allowed in this forum. Since I do not consider myself to be an "expert" on the subject I do have to ask a few questions now and then. If your understanding of the science behind QDM cannot withstand the scrutiny of a couple of questions without going postal, then I suggest you either get better aquainted with whatever it is that you think you know, or look into taking some medication for your condition.

[nyantler]

That is a great buck!  Don't want to argue, just curious as to why some think there wouldn't be a close buck:doe ratio in unhunted areas?  NYantler, I think your post was pretty harsh.

It would depend on the size of the area... its hard to work ratios in a small area because of transiant deer... but if we were talking about a whole DMU.. definitely better than what it is now. But remember if the ratio starts out skewed it will remain skewed for quite some time. The whole thing with managing is to get the ratios and age structures in check first, then alter the management plan to "maintain" rather than fix. Not every area needs to cut out huge amounts of doe, but some areas do... a place like vast parts the adirondacks have better ratio's hence no doe tags in much of the adirondacks.

[nyantler]

( "Does anyone but me see the peculiarity that all the "experts" tell us that in order to have monster bucks, you have to beat the hell out of your doe herd until they are nearly non-existant or until there is something close to a 1:1 gender ratio")

What credible expert that knows anything about management model has ever said " beat the hell out your doe herd" thats not even remotely part of what QDM or any true expert would say when it comes to managing a herd. Thats the kind of ignorant staements that we're talking about.

And telling you that you don't know what you're taking about and that you spout a lot of BS about things you know nothing about, is not losing control. I read everything you write, not just the first few words, cuz I don't want to miss any of the entertaining crap you put out there. I probably should stop at the first few words, because it gets more and more ridiculous as I read on in your posts. Localqdm.. it might have been harsh but Doc's  a big boy.. I think he can handle it.

[bubba]

I love it when man thinks he is smarter than nature. 

[Doc]

( "Does anyone but me see the peculiarity that all the "experts" tell us that in order to have monster bucks, you have to beat the hell out of your doe herd until they are nearly non-existant or until there is something close to a 1:1 gender ratio")

What credible expert that knows anything about management model has ever said " beat the hell out your doe herd" thats not even remotely part of what QDM or any true expert would say when it comes to managing a herd. Thats the kind of ignorant staements that we're talking about.

And telling you that you don't know what you're taking about and that you spout a lot of BS about things you know nothing about, is not losing control. I read everything you write, not just the first few words, cuz I don't want to miss any of the entertaining crap you put out there. I probably should stop at the first few words, because it gets more and more ridiculous as I read on in your posts. Localqdm.. it might have been harsh but Doc's  a big boy.. I think he can handle it.

Oh so you don't like the words I used to phrase the questions. Well, that certainly makes the difference. Now I understand why you lost control of all civility and acted like a jerk.....  : .

[troutman]

Oh so you don't like the words I used to phrase the questions. Well, that certainly makes the difference. Now I understand why you lost control of all civility and acted like a jerk.....  [img alt=:]http://huntingny.com/forums/Smileys/akyhne/rolleyes.gif[/img] .

Are you serious Doc?  As an innocent bystander, I think you took this thread down the tubes.  Start a new topic if you want to debate.  This was a topic of people commenting on photos of a beautiful animal and your dragged it down.  In the few months i have been a member of this forum and have seen some of your postings, it seemed clear to me that you went fishing with your post with the intent of a knee jerk reaction from the QDM crowd. 

And I quote:

Oh, what is a nice calm thread like this one without some ole' curmudgeon trying to add some controversy.  http://huntingny.com/forums/Smileys/akyhne/grin.gif[/img]

Really Doc?

I don't agree with much of NYantlers philosophy, but I enjoy his viewpoints and information that he brings to this forum.  Now you want to chastise him for his response to your pretty dumb (sorry it was) post in the middle of an unrelated topic under the guise that 'I was just trying to understand and ask a simple question.'  Poppy cock!  You fished for a reaction and you got one!

[nyantler]

Thank you Troutman and I respect the fact that you may disagree with my philosophy.. I understand that everyone isn't in to the whole management idea, but at least some you listen without spouting crap trying to debunk any management ideas. And yes... what a beautiful animal this buck is.

[Doc]

As an innocent bystander, I think you took this thread down the tubes.  Start a new topic if you want to debate. 

The thread was about an urban buck and I thought it was appropriate to pass on some observations about urban herds and ask some questions. I expected that the questions would be answered and the thread would move on. What I did not expect was some psycho reaction from a guy that thinks anyone asking such questions should be shouted down with insults.

The suggestion to move that part of the discussion to a separate topic has been made already and I already said that I would rather just drop the whole subject because there is one here who cannot discuss such things rationally. I am still trying to do that, no thanks to you .....  .

Doc

[nyantler]

The question needs to be rational before anyone can give a rational answer...

[Doc]

The question needs to be rational before anyone can give a rational answer...

Just got to keep it going, don't you ...... lol.

[nyantler]

How about the size of that buck???