12 year old shot dead by playmate

[MuzzyLoader]

Mr. Administrator...

It's time to mark this thread a 'Sticky Topic' IMO. 

There may be forum members (in addition to me) reading this that have lost a child to suicide or a gun related accident.  My wife and I lost our son to suicide in 1999 (he was living in KS and used his own shotgun) at the age of 24.

And because of that - my perspective on this thread may be slightly different from previous posts.  I am in agreement with many posts, appalled by some, and can rationally understand others.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion and opinions are formed based on an individual’s past learning and experiences. 

I would just like to reiterate this – loosing a child to a gun-related incident is truly a gut-wrenching ordeal and it will affect your life for many years afterward.  I for one am praying that everyone involved in this/these terrible tragedies can somehow climb back to functioning as a somewhat 'normal' human being.  Although, I am well aware and know it will probably take them a long while to do that. 

I pray for God's Blessing upon all involved, and ask Him to grant them Peace.

*Certified by The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention in, Suicide Outreach.

[RPIBuckHunter]

Some updates and new developments on the Wilton NY case here:

http://wnyt.com/article/stories/S1898794.shtml?cat=300

[WNYBuckHunter]

WNY, if anyone uses your gun to do anything, you will be under investigation by the law to determine if you committed any crime.  I don't know what the laws in NY are, but in many states you would have broken the law.

But let's say you did not break any law.  The state lets you off the hook, but the family of the victim can sue you for negligence in a civil suit.  The burden of proof in civil cases is much less than in a criminal case.  I don't think you would win the case.  If you don't believe me, check it out for yourself with your attorney.

Like I said, owning a firearm carries huge responsibilities.  It's best to know what they are before you get in trouble.

If someone does something with my gun, and I had nothing to do with it other than owning the gun, I am not in any trouble. Of course they would look into it, but someone asking me questions doesnt equate to being in trouble. There is no law against me owning  my guns or keeping them in my house or even having a loaded clip in them. There is also no law saying I have to keep them under lock and key. Id like to know in which states I would be breaking the law by having an unlocked firearm in my home. Also Id like to see the results of the civil lawsuits for a case where someone left a gun in their home unlocked. Please, let me know. 

[WNYBuckHunter]

Mr. Administrator...

It's time to mark this thread a 'Sticky Topic' IMO. 

There may be forum members (in addition to me) reading this that have lost a child to suicide or a gun related accident.  My wife and I lost our son to suicide in 1999 (he was living in KS and used his own shotgun) at the age of 24.

And because of that - my perspective on this thread may be slightly different from previous posts.  I am in agreement with many posts, appalled by some, and can rationally understand others.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion and opinions are formed based on an individual’s past learning and experiences. 

I would just like to reiterate this – loosing a child to a gun-related incident is truly a gut-wrenching ordeal and it will affect your life for many years afterward.  I for one am praying that everyone involved in this/these terrible tragedies can somehow climb back to functioning as a somewhat 'normal' human being.  Although, I am well aware and know it will probably take them a long while to do that. 

I pray for God's Blessing upon all involved, and ask Him to grant them Peace.

*Certified by The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention in, Suicide Outreach.

Im sorry for your loss. If your son had locked his gun up, do you think it may have prevented him from taking his life? I sincerely apologize if the question offends you, thats not what Im trying to do.

[Mr VJP]

WNY, the case we are discussing is in Wilton, NY.  The father and the son are both charged in this case.  If you live in NY, you would be charged the same way if this happened in your home with your gun.  Click on the link in the above post for the info.

I suggest you watch how this case unfolds to see what type of trouble you could be in if it happened to you.  And keep watching after the criminal charges are finalized.  That's when the civil suit will begin.  This father will most likely lose his home in this lawsuit.

In NJ, the law says you can not leave a loaded gun within easy access of a minor.  I think that law has been implemented in a number states now.  I don't have a list of them, but you can Google the info if you doubt me.

Here's something I found that is dated 2005, so more states may have added these laws since then.

Florida became the first state to provide legislation to combat children's access to guns.⁽¹⁵⁾  In 1989, Florida enacted legislation making it a misdemeanor crime to  store or leave a loaded firearm within the "reach or easy access" of a  minor. If the minor injures himself or someone else, the statute  authorizes a felony conviction. Fifteen additional states have enacted  similar legislation (in order of legislation passing date):  Connecticut, Nevada, New Jersey, Virginia, Wisconsin, Hawaii, Maryland,  Minnesota, North Carolina, Delaware, Rhode Island, Texas, and  Massachusetts.⁽¹⁶⁾

While more states are pushing for child access  prevention laws, of the sixteen states that have adopted child access  prevention laws: seven define minors as those under the age of sixteen,  four define minors as under fourteen, and one defines them as under  twelve. Just four states define a minor as someone under the age of  eighteen.⁽¹⁷⁾

[Culvercreek hunt club]

If someone does something with my gun, and I had nothing to do with it other than owning the gun, I am not in any trouble. Of course they would look into it, but someone asking me questions doesnt equate to being in trouble. There is no law against me owning  my guns or keeping them in my house or even having a loaded clip in them. There is also no law saying I have to keep them under lock and key. Id like to know in which states I would be breaking the law by having an unlocked firearm in my home. Also Id like to see the results of the civil lawsuits for a case where someone left a gun in their home unlocked. Please, let me know. 

I think the City of Rochester has such a law..not positive but I believe so

[MuzzyLoader]

"Im sorry for your loss. If your son had locked his gun up, do you think it may have prevented him from taking his life? I sincerely apologize if the question offends you, thats not what Im trying to do."

Thank you for your above comment and question WNYBuckHunter (and I'm not offended by your question).  The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention states that over 90% of suicides are precipitated by a mental illness.  Our son suffered from a bi-polar disorder and consequently even if his gun was locked up... he would have found another means to end his life.  If a person is DETERMINED to end their life... they will find a way!

[WNYBuckHunter]

"Im sorry for your loss. If your son had locked his gun up, do you think it may have prevented him from taking his life? I sincerely apologize if the question offends you, thats not what Im trying to do."

Thank you for your above comment and question WNYBuckHunter (and I'm not offended by your question).  The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention states that over 90% of suicides are precipitated by a mental illness.  Our son suffered from a bi-polar disorder and consequently even if his gun was locked up... he would have found another means to end his life.  If a person is DETERMINED to end their life... they will find a way!

Thanks for the straight to the point answer. Again, my condolences.

[WNYBuckHunter]

WNY, the case we are discussing is in Wilton, NY.  The father and the son are both charged in this case.  If you live in NY, you would be charged the same way if this happened in your home with your gun.  Click on the link in the above post for the info.

I suggest you watch how this case unfolds to see what type of trouble you could be in if it happened to you.  And keep watching after the criminal charges are finalized.  That's when the civil suit will begin.  This father will most likely lose his home in this lawsuit.

In NJ, the law says you can not leave a loaded gun within easy access of a minor.  I think that law has been implemented in a number states now.  I don't have a list of them, but you can Google the info if you doubt me.

Here's something I found that is dated 2005, so more states may have added these laws since then.

Florida became the first state to provide legislation to combat children's access to guns.⁽¹⁵⁾  In 1989, Florida enacted legislation making it a misdemeanor crime to  store or leave a loaded firearm within the "reach or easy access" of a  minor. If the minor injures himself or someone else, the statute  authorizes a felony conviction. Fifteen additional states have enacted  similar legislation (in order of legislation passing date):  Connecticut, Nevada, New Jersey, Virginia, Wisconsin, Hawaii, Maryland,  Minnesota, North Carolina, Delaware, Rhode Island, Texas, and  Massachusetts.⁽¹⁶⁾

While more states are pushing for child access  prevention laws, of the sixteen states that have adopted child access  prevention laws: seven define minors as those under the age of sixteen,  four define minors as under fourteen, and one defines them as under  twelve. Just four states define a minor as someone under the age of  eighteen.⁽¹⁷⁾

Oh come on, the discussion has taken some turns and is no longer about just this case. Ill be watching the case though. I doubt the father will get convicted as long as there are no laws or ordinances in his area about leaving a gun unlocked. Notice that his wasnt loaded and it sounds like the clip was in another location, so the gun was not even loaded.

As far as the list of states, thanks. Where does one draw the line with ""reach or easy access" of a  minor" though? And it looks like in the Wilton, NY case, the father didnt leave the gun laying around loaded, so he woud have been within the limits of the laws that you listed.

[WNYBuckHunter]

If someone does something with my gun, and I had nothing to do with it other than owning the gun, I am not in any trouble. Of course they would look into it, but someone asking me questions doesnt equate to being in trouble. There is no law against me owning  my guns or keeping them in my house or even having a loaded clip in them. There is also no law saying I have to keep them under lock and key. Id like to know in which states I would be breaking the law by having an unlocked firearm in my home. Also Id like to see the results of the civil lawsuits for a case where someone left a gun in their home unlocked. Please, let me know. 

I think the City of Rochester has such a law..not positive but I believe so

Im not sure, I dont live in the city, never would, so I have never read that part of them. I only know what pertains to where/how I can carry in the city.

[First-light]

Burt,

To be honest I do care.....not my biggest concern...that resides at home in my daughter. I have a long closet in my bedroom. The kind with the 4' sliding doors that pass each other. it is on mounts on the blind side above the door. Unless you know it is there...never come across it by accident. I am 6'4" aand can just grab the receiver so I know it poses no danger to a child.

I really wonder and can't tell from the stories I have read on this ....where the parents were that lived there. The story made it sound like the kids were out in the yard with the gun....."ran back in the house to call 911". So society could get the whole story I would love to be a fly on the wall and see just what type of households these were. I don't care if it is drugs....teen pregnancy...guns.....pic an ill....It really does start at home.

It sure does, that's no lie.

I also would like to point out that our group "Hunting NY" probably has the safest bunch of gun owners around.

I say this because we have a passion about guns and hunting. They go hand and hand. Unfortunately we get associated with the careless individuals that give gun owners a bad name. I respect the individuals on this board that need to have a gun accessible to them in there home, I do not. Muzzyloader my thoughts are with you, I'm sure this is a difficult subject.

[rebal]

Notice also that "Education" is not the answer.  The gun owner was obviously educated about leaving it unloaded and separate from ammo.  It's hard to write a law to account for all contingencies without it being overly restrictive.  To me it seems to depend entirely on the individuals involved.  Living in rural area with varmints & rabid animals in back yard, I raised our boys with unloaded shotgun readily available and trusted them not to handle any firearm outside of my presense.  (My other guns were locked up)  If they had guests, I would remove any gun.  Never had them loaded but ammo was close-by.  If my kids were like many other kids, I would have done things differently.

[Mr VJP]

The 12-year-old Wilton boy is being petitioned on a charge of  Manslaughter in the second degree in Family Court, in the shooting  death of his friend.

 

The  surviving boy's father, 56-year-old Edward O'Rourke, was arraigned on a  misdemeanor charge of Endangering the Welfare of a Child, after Bowen  said he left 'unsecured loose ammunition in the residence.'  This is what the gun owner and his son are facing at the moment.  Maybe the father didn't violate any gun possession law, but once it is used by a child and a death occurs, you can bet there will be plenty of violations the law can come up with against you.

And a civil suit will certainly follow.  Ask any attorney and he will tell you this is a slam dunk case.

[Culvercreek hunt club]

The 12-year-old Wilton boy is being petitioned on a charge of  Manslaughter in the second degree in Family Court, in the shooting  death of his friend.

   

The  surviving boy's father, 56-year-old Edward O'Rourke, was arraigned on a  misdemeanor charge of Endangering the Welfare of a Child, after Bowen  said he left 'unsecured loose ammunition in the residence.'  This is what the gun owner and his son are facing at the moment.  Maybe the father didn't violate any gun possession law, but once it is used by a child and a death occurs, you can bet there will be plenty of violations the law can come up with against you.

And a civil suit will certainly follow.  Ask any attorney and he will tell you this is a slam dunk case.

I would be curious if the victim's father knew the bouys would be by themselves for 3 hours

[RPIBuckHunter]

The 12-year-old Wilton boy is being petitioned on a charge of  Manslaughter in the second degree in Family Court, in the shooting  death of his friend.

   

The  surviving boy's father, 56-year-old Edward O'Rourke, was arraigned on a  misdemeanor charge of Endangering the Welfare of a Child, after Bowen  said he left 'unsecured loose ammunition in the residence.'  This is what the gun owner and his son are facing at the moment.  Maybe the father didn't violate any gun possession law, but once it is used by a child and a death occurs, you can bet there will be plenty of violations the law can come up with against you.

And a civil suit will certainly follow.  Ask any attorney and he will tell you this is a slam dunk case.

I would be curious if the victim's father knew the bouys would be by themselves for 3 hours

According to the news story I heard, they were 'left alone to play video games':http://wnyt.com/article/stories/S1898794.shtml?cat=10114

[Culvercreek hunt club]

i read that too....was wondering why...I know I probably fall into the overprotective parent category but my 12 year old is NOT gonna be at my home alone or at someone elses home alone.

[First-light]

i read that too....was wondering why...I know I probably fall into the overprotective parent category but my 12 year old is NOT gonna be at my home alone or at someone elses home alone.

Nope, I'm with ya. Two twelve Alone year olds spells trouble. Not overprotective at all.

[WNYBuckHunter]

i read that too....was wondering why...I know I probably fall into the overprotective parent category but my 12 year old is NOT gonna be at my home alone or at someone elses home alone.

Im with you on that as well, no 12 year old should be left in a home alone especially with friends over. Its asking for trouble.

[WNYBuckHunter]

The 12-year-old Wilton boy is being petitioned on a charge of  Manslaughter in the second degree in Family Court, in the shooting  death of his friend.

   

The  surviving boy's father, 56-year-old Edward O'Rourke, was arraigned on a  misdemeanor charge of Endangering the Welfare of a Child, after Bowen  said he left 'unsecured loose ammunition in the residence.'  This is what the gun owner and his son are facing at the moment.  Maybe the father didn't violate any gun possession law, but once it is used by a child and a death occurs, you can bet there will be plenty of violations the law can come up with against you.

And a civil suit will certainly follow.  Ask any attorney and he will tell you this is a slam dunk case.

Unless you know all of the details, which you are never going to get from the internet or a newspaper, you are working on assumptions. We will see how the case pans out. Like I said, unless there is a law that states you cannot leave ammo unlocked (I notice that you have now moved from a position of having a gun locked up to ammo being locked up as well) in your home, he didnt commit a crime. Now if a jury convicts him for leaving the kids by themselves, which may fall under 'endangering the welfare of a child', then thats a whole other part of the story.

[Mr VJP]

Just repeating what's been reported in the news WNY.  I didn't make up or assume any of that.  That is the official statement from the police on why he was charged and what he was charged with.

If Dad's gun wasn't loaded, and no ammo available, the boy would be alive and nobody would be in jail.  But it appears what the cops are saying is, because the boys were able to find the gun and the ammo, and were left unsupervised for a long time, that constitutes endangering the welfare of a child.  That law alone allows for a wide range of infractions to be used against someone.

Obviously, if the gun was also loaded when they found it, that wouldn't make things any better.

Don't be so certain you didn't commit a crime if something happens, without getting the opinion of qualified legal consul.  Heck, make a friendly call to your local police and ask them if you have any liability if someone finds your gun and something happens.  I'm just trying to open your eyes to possible problems.  Choose the path you want.  It's a free country, your free to do whatever they let you do.

[bubba]

anybody can be charged. However in this country, the people are asumed innocnet until proven guilty.  By that I mean until convicted, we should not pass judgement.  You are hearng wht the cops and dz said, not what the person said

[Mr VJP]

That's very true.  Never said the guy was guilty.  But this event seems to be a case of someone leaving a gun and ammo unsecured, while leaving children alone with access to it, and a young boy got killed because of it.

Maybe the jurors will find him not guilty, but he will be out tens of thousands in legal fees and still face a civil suit.  The OJ Simpson case was a classic example of a not guilty verdict that still got a big win in a civil suit.

What I am trying to point out here is, leaving a loaded gun around where kids can get to it is asking for all kinds of trouble.  Personally, I'd be real worried the jury would want to send me to jail, which they could do, even if my lawyer showed them no firearms laws were violated.  They sometimes find other violations of child welfare that can lock you up anyway.

If I'm not home, my gun is locked up.  It's too risky to leave it out.

[bubba]

well I know of no law that says a gun or ammo has to be locked up in new york state. If there is, I have not seen or heard about it.  The unsupervised children as far as I know 12 years old is the age a child can stay alone.  It is smart to leave them at that age no. But as far as the law is concerned, I dont see where the dad broke any. I am not saying what a jury will say, I am saying what the law says

[ny hunter]

I own over 40 fire arms.When someone tells me I would never break into your house I laugh.My weapons are all in case and safes and gun racks.the ones in cases are under my bed.All my ammo how ever is locked up.All my guns are useless.I have the only key to the ammo.If someone enters my home with bad intent I keep in old fashioned baseball bat just for that person.It is me that does this.I would not be able to live with my self If anything ever happened be cause of my guns.My kids all know what guns are about how they work and what happens when the trigger is squeased.I also believe the gun owner should be held responseable.Period.  Not looking to throw gas on the fire here.

[bubba]

never bring a bat to a gun fight.  You bat is useless when the person breaking in has a gun and the element of surprise. Then the family you are trying to protect from your guns is at the mercy of the perpertrator