DEC Announces Proposed Rule Changes to Allow Big Bore Air Rifles for Big Game Hunting

[shawnhu]

It will be interesting to see if the shooting regs from a structure are the same as rifle or shorter ranges ?

Currently, airgun regulations are the same as any firearm, 500' from any structure or dwelling.

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[mike rossi]

Another money maker. More money in Pittman Robertson fund as well a no doubt 20 dollar privilege tag to but to use one.

 

I think it has more to do with Phase 2 of the deer management strategy. The DEC very clearly warned hunters that if they do not shoot does, and shoot them early in the season, they will implement phase 2.

 

Phase 2 includes a regulation change which allows the use of  muzzleloaders in archery season. The argument that gun noise makes deer go nocturnal can not be made against air guns. Perhaps the DEC decided to  modify the Phase 2 strategy and allow air guns instead of muzzleloaders.  

[Doc]

I think it has more to do with Phase 2 of the deer management strategy. The DEC very clearly warned hunters that if they do not shoot does, and shoot them early in the season, they will implement phase 2.

 

Phase 2 includes a regulation change which allows the use of  muzzleloaders in archery season. The argument that gun noise makes deer go nocturnal can not be made against air guns. Perhaps the DEC decided to  modify the Phase 2 strategy and allow air guns instead of muzzleloaders.  

Yes, the threat was that if bowhunters didn't do the impossible, that is control deer populations for all of hunting but with a very inefficient weapon, they were going to introduce muzzleloaders into the bow seasons. Which by the way was an idea that they championed a decade ago before conjuring up an excuse to legitimize it. Don't kid yourself, phase two was really their phase one plan regardless of what bowhunters did or didn't do.

 

Point #2-  Is it the bang that turns deer nocturnal? Or is it the panic they experience when every time they turn around there is human scent slamming into their noses. I think that is more likely the cause than simply gunshots. As far as I know the shooting by small game hunters does not drive deer into nocturnal patterns unless the pressure becomes too intense. I suspect a sudden increase in deer hunter numbers due to any firearms being introduced will be the real reason for deer to hunker in and adapt their gun season defense mentality. So the DEC may be trying to make it appear that they are friends of bowhunters with some ploy like this, but frankly, I don't really think they give a damn anymore. As they say, "the gloves are off", and the new hardline against bowhunters has begun. They have now adopted the attitude that bowseason is a waste of good deer harvesting time and the quicker they get decent effective weapons into that season the better they can continue to satisfy the whining of NYS's moneyed interests. "Challenging" hunting methods be damned. That is a luxury they are no longer willing to entertain.

[Doc]

There's plenty of coverage for Airguns and hunting, and when it comes to big bore Airguns, hunting advocates like Jim Hockey have been using them for in some of his hunts. They are also in shot show every year.

According to the DEC, for the purposes of hunting, Airguns are considered firearms. I would expect that it's treated as such in every aspect of the law according to the DEC.

However, they do have several differences. They are not rifles, and can usually be used where rifles cannot. They are quieter, and produce much less energy than powder burners, and thus a lot quieter. These are all advantages, especially for bringing in new hunters into the sport. No matter the opposition, one cannot deny the lack of recoil, unnecessary need for hearing protection, and reduced lethal distance that the projectile will travel are all advancements in airgun technology.

The Gamo commercial that you likely saw was a very old commercial. IIRC, it was with a Gamo break barrel airgun that shot a 1.77 extra light weight pellet straight into the skull. Most would not choose this setup given today's available options.

Well I have to admit that TV hunting programs (faked-up infomercials) have failed to capture my interest for a few years now. So if they have been touting the virtues of air rifles lately I guess I could have easily missed it. And making it to the Shot Show is not likely in my future either.....lol. But I do subscribe to quite a few magazines, and I have to say tat they are not something that jumps out in every issue.

 

Now as far as the benefits, I do still see a lot of active interest in impact energy, and speed and trajectory in big game rifle discussions and to a point it is generally considered to be a good thing to have knock-down power, and flat trajectories. These are generally considered to be good things and not liabilities. The noise is something that I don't really care about. When a deer hears the noise of my .270, he is already dead .... lol. Recoil again, not a big deal. My .270 has no objectionable recoil, and anyone at any age could shoot it without any bother. And reduced effective range is not something that I would be looking for in a deer rifle.

 

So once again, I have to wonder out loud, just what is the appeal or benefits to buying something that does the job on big game in a marginal  or compromised fashion? From what I am hearing, that is a pretty reasonable question.

[Elmo]

$700 to $1700 for an airgun . What a deal ! 

 

That doesn't even include the additional equipment like air tank, pump, etc.

[shawnhu]

Well I have to admit that TV hunting programs (faked-up infomercials) have failed to capture my interest for a few years now. So if they have been touting the virtues of air rifles lately I guess I could have easily missed it. And making it to the Shot Show is not likely in my future either.....lol. But I do subscribe to quite a few magazines, and I have to say tat they are not something that jumps out in every issue.

Now as far as the benefits, I do still see a lot of active interest in impact energy, and speed and trajectory in big game rifle discussions and to a point it is generally considered to be a good thing to have knock-down power, and flat trajectories. These are generally considered to be good things and not liabilities. The noise is something that I don't really care about. When a deer hears the noise of my .270, he is already dead .... lol. Recoil again, not a big deal. My .270 has no objectionable recoil, and anyone at any age could shoot it without any bother. And reduced effective range is not something that I would be looking for in a deer rifle.

So once again, I have to wonder out loud, just what is the appeal or benefits to buying something that does the job on big game in a marginal or compromised fashion? From what I am hearing, that is a pretty reasonable question.

There's many things that doesn't concern "you" doc, but luckily, this isn't about "you". It's about airgunners.

Thanks.

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Edited December 24, 2015 by shawnhu

[Doc]

There's many things that doesn't concern "you" doc, but luckily, this isn't about "you". It's about airgunners.

Thanks.

 

Look, I'm just asking reasonable questions, and hoping for reasonable answers, not some snide comments of who things are all about or aren't.

 

Nobody gets into things without some logical reasons. I'm just curious as to what those reasons possibly could be. If you can't come up with any, don't feel bad. So far nobody else has either.

[shawnhu]

Look, I'm just asking reasonable questions, and hoping for reasonable answers, not some snide comments of who things are all about or aren't.

Nobody gets into things without some logical reasons. I'm just curious as to what those reasons possibly could be. If you can't come up with any, don't feel bad. So far nobody else has either.

Point is Doc, reasons has been given. It's obvious though that these reasons don't suite you, as you've clearly stated. But guess what? It suites others, and that's the point. For someone that bow hunts, I'm very surprised by your lack of understanding.

And no worries about me feeling bad, stopped that a long time ago. Now I just help others that's trying to get into the sport, whether it be with bow, gun, or airgun.

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[Buckmaster7600]

I just wonder why NY would go this route and not suppressors like many other states have.

[Doc]

Point is Doc, reasons has been given. It's obvious though that these reasons don't suite you, as you've clearly stated. But guess what? It suites others, and that's the point. For someone that bow hunts, I'm very surprised by your lack of understanding.

And no worries about me feeling bad, stopped that a long time ago. Now I just help others that's trying to get into the sport, whether it be with bow, gun, or airgun.

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The reasons given made no sense as I explained. So I am still curious as to what the attraction is and hoping there is someone who can explain it. Perhaps I'm missing out on something if someone will take the time to honestly explain it all to me with real and logical answers. I would appreciate that rather than a whole bunch of uncalled for feigned outrage and defensiveness. And by the way, in case it all went over your head, I am not attacking the weapon or the use of it. I am simply trying to understand what people feel are the reasons for wanting to use them. Nothing aggressive or unfriendly or anything for you to be getting all indignant about. Just curiosity. It is the same kinds of questions I have asked a thousand times about different makes of bows, and certain calibers and models of rifles or shotguns. Frankly, I have never had anybody ever take offense over my asking those kinds of questions.

[shawnhu]

The reasons given made no sense as I explained. So I am still curious as to what the attraction is and hoping there is someone who can explain it. Perhaps I'm missing out on something if someone will take the time to honestly explain it all to me with real and logical answers. I would appreciate that rather than a whole bunch of uncalled for feigned outrage and defensiveness. And by the way, in case it all went over your head, I am not attacking the weapon or the use of it. I am simply trying to understand what people feel are the reasons for wanting to use them. Nothing aggressive or unfriendly or anything for you to be getting all indignant about. Just curiosity. It is the same kinds of questions I have asked a thousand times about different makes of bows, and certain calibers and models of rifles or shotguns. Frankly, I have never had anybody ever take offense over my asking those kinds of questions.

Why use a bow? Perhaps that question, might have the answers you seek.

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[Rhunter]

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[growalot]

1000.00 for a gun you can't shoot past 60 yrds for bigger game??? What, just to eliminate the noise that shooting makes?...I don't get it.

[Elmo]

It will depend on how airguns will be regulated.  Currently, airguns for small games are allowed in areas that are shotgun only zones.  That's where the advantage comes in as I much rather headshot a squirrel at 75 yards with an airgun than have to come within 40 yards with a shotgun and then pick out pellets afterwards.  Just not enough for me to plunk down over a grand for one.

 

But if it's anything like how they regulate a crossbow where it is pretty much treated like a rifle, then I see no sense in getting one.  Currently, crossbows are not allowed in Westchester which is a bow only.  For me to use a crossbow, I would have to go to areas where they allow rifles and shotguns and so for that, I'd rather just bring my rifle instead.  Gaining a 2 week head start is not worth it for me.  Now if they allow crossbows in bow only zones...or airguns in bow only zones...oh, heck yeah I would drop the coin for it.

 

But these advantages isn't in the weapon itself but how DEC treats the weapon.  I will wait to see the details in the regulations and see if they stick before I make a decision.

[Doc]

Why use a bow? Perhaps that question, might have the answers you seek.

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When I got into bowhunting, it was for the super-challenge that it represented. The challenge of using a weapon that required muscle memory, and a whole list of form disciplines. The weapon then had a very direct tie to tradition, history and culture. A weapon that demanded some extreme challenges in the required knowledge of deer habits and patterns so you could get within a dozen yards and pull off a decent shot. Bows have changed appearance and performance, but the basic disciplines involved in shooting them haven't changed a whole lot. A lot of what appeared in the books of archery still apply in today's books. And so the appeal of challenge makes it an endeavor that still has the appeal of having accomplished something that is difficult. Does an air rifle provide those kinds of challenges? I really don't know because I have never shot one with the intention of dropping a deer. I don't see those same element of challenge other than wondering if I really have the energy performances to drive a projectile deep enough to enter and disrupt vital organs. The theory of operation is totally different than a broadhead, so I have no way of judging the adequacy of the weapon. It does leave me with questions of adequate performance and limitations. But again, I have no knowledge of these weapons and hence my questions. Are these things something that I would lay down twice the money that I spent on my .270? Is the performance per dollar similar to my .270? So many questions..... so few answers.....lol.

[shawnhu]

When I got into bowhunting, it was for the super-challenge that it represented. The challenge of using a weapon that required muscle memory, and a whole list of form disciplines. The weapon then had a very direct tie to tradition, history and culture. A weapon that demanded some extreme challenges in the required knowledge of deer habits and patterns so you could get within a dozen yards and pull off a decent shot. Bows have changed appearance and performance, but the basic disciplines involved in shooting them haven't changed a whole lot. A lot of what appeared in the books of archery still apply in today's books. And so the appeal of challenge makes it an endeavor that still has the appeal of having accomplished something that is difficult. Does an air rifle provide those kinds of challenges? I really don't know because I have never shot one with the intention of dropping a deer. I don't see those same element of challenge other than wondering if I really have the energy performances to drive a projectile deep enough to enter and disrupt vital organs. The theory of operation is totally different than a broadhead, so I have no way of judging the adequacy of the weapon. It does leave me with questions of adequate performance and limitations. But again, I have no knowledge of these weapons and hence my questions. Are these things something that I would lay down twice the money that I spent on my .270? Is the performance per dollar similar to my .270? So many questions..... so few answers.....lol.

Let me try to break it down for you Doc.

You speak of getting into bow hunting for the "super challenge". Some of which you referenced as muscle memory, form, other disciplines as well as knowledge of deer habits and patterns.

I think it's probably ok to assume that many young hunters can string a 35lb bow, the minimum requirement for hunting with one in NYS. I think it's also safe to say that most archers can hit a 8" target at a dozen(12) yards. I don't find this challenging at all, but that's just the opinion of one person.

What I do find challenging is the ability to shoot past 50 yards and hit your mark, every time with a bow. And there are people that do that, all the time. Shooting at this discipline will require much more talent, practice, and dedication to the previous for most people. These archers probably think what I view as a challenge, is a joke, similar to how I probably view shooting a target at 12 yards. So my point being, challenge is relative to each individual. Is it a challenge to shoot a big bore airgun and take deer? You'll have to shoot one yourself to determine that. No one else can tell you how challenging it is.

So with the "challenge" part out of the way, let's get on with the rest. You speak of deer habit and pattern, as if a gun hunter doesn't need to know these things. Is it easier for a gun hunter to stumble upon a deer and get a shot off? Yes. But the same hunter, if he so chooses, can do exactly the same as an archer, with the exception of being 500' instead of 150', and the ability to do it earlier in the season.

Which brings the question of seasons and regulations, if all else being equal, how different is it from someone wanting to use a bow or muzzleloader during regular gun season? A huge advantage that I can foresee is the ability for youth and the disabled to use this in urban areas where rifles and shotguns are not allowed. What are their alternatives? 35lb vertical bows or crossbows. Surely you can understand that there may be some people that prefer or can't meet those requirements but would still want to be quiet and possibly hunt near urban areas, right?

You speak of tradition. Undeniably, the bow and crossbow has been around forever and has great history. I, myself, am fascinated by how a stick tipped with a bone propelled by a stick and string can be turned into a lethal tool. But that's not why I bow hunt, and frankly, why I bow hunt is not of importance in this topic, just that I bow hunt, just like I gun hunt, and also that I airgun hunt as well. Opportunity is the name of the game for me. If you want to talk history and culture and tradition, you can reference Lewis and Clark and the Girandoni air rifle, in which case, is much closer to our current culture than our modern day "compounds". Frankly, I can't think of a more traditional way to hunt than with an airgun, something that many Americans grew up shooting as kids. That's the type of tradition I can relate to.

You wonder and question the adequate performance and limitations of the implement. The ballistic performances isn't much different than that of a broad head from archery equipment. Both implements primarily kill by means of wound channel and hemorrhaging. The precision of today's Airguns are very capable of being sub-moa, can the same be said about most archery equipment or that of most archers?

You expressed concerns of performance and cost comparison. You're kind of comparing apples to oranges now. One can purchase a bare Mathews bow for a cool grand and still spend an additional $500 on accessories. Or one can pick up old bear recurve or longbow for next to nothing. The same can be said about Airguns, how much do you want to spend? You reference your .270 and cost comparison, but caliber really isn't a factor here. Ask Biz how much his Weatherby costs. I've probably spent more on my .243 than most have on their entire collection of firearms, but does it make it anymore efficient or cost effective? Certainly not. Cost is truly irreverent here, especially if I can make it up in ammo in no time at all.

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[DirtTime]

There are many great bows out there for less then $1,000. Even with accessories you can in get under a grand. Including a dozen good arrows.

"O-Ring" replacement I suppose would be the same as string replacement, it would have to be done regularly and cost would depend on quality.

That's where apples and oranges stops.

Now it becomes canned corn and dragon fruit.

With the state of gun control and some local mom & pop places already reeling, they won't be able to afford to bring on an airgun smith. 

 

If you want quit, buy a bow. Tried, proven, and reliable. I am not going into the lost or unrecovered deer issue because a bad shot from a 300 mag. can result in a lost deer. That's a pretty devastating caliber! I am sure it doesn't happen often, but does happen now and again.

 

If NY DEC wants to let them in, so be it. But, the reasoning with the proposal makes no sense. It's all about noise. 

 

 

[Doc]

When it comes to challenge, you will have a real hard time convincing me that there is any comparison between any rifle of any sort and any bow of any sort. That is not even something that I would seriously waste time discussing because that is just a foolish comparison. You talked about the sub-moa accuracy, and then try to compare the challenge to that of a bow. Your comparisons with archery equipment are a hell of a reach at best in terms of a challenging method of deer hunting, and that is a judgment that doesn't really require any shooting experience with one of these rifles to make.

 

As far as level of archery skills/challenges, I have to say that I watched Stacey Groscup shoot aspirins out of the air with a recurve, but I wouldn't exactly call that something that the average archer can do. Yes a dozen yards was a bit short and was mentioned in the context of a beginning archer of the recurve days (me), but I and many other people start getting a little uncomfortable after 25 yards. That is more likely the maximum efficient range of the average archer today. And yes with that limited distance the challenge is way more than any kind of rifle. So that point isn't even arguable.

 

Quote: "The ballistic performances isn't much different than that of a broad head from archery equipment. Both implements primarily kill by means of wound channel and hemorrhaging."

 

So you are saying that these big bore air rifle have the same looping trajectory as an arrow? See, when it comes to performance, I know nothing about these rifles, so I am surprised to hear that the performance is so poor. It sounds like a rangefinder would be a necessary accessory. But let me clear up one thing about the theory of killing between a blunt rifle projectile and a broadhead. The broadhead relies on sharp-edge laceration to penetrate to the vitals. Most bullets that I know of rely on energy and impact to penetrate to the vitals. That is a whole opposite theory of getting the job done with absolutely no similarity. I just wanted to straighten that point out a bit.

 

So anyway, basically in every instance where you try to compare any rifle to a bow, the comparison fails miserably because there really is no comparison. Each weapon is unique in form and function with no similarities of any sort. You picked a bad weapon to try to compare air rifles against. That is a true attempt at apples and oranges type comparison, and not even that close of a comparison.

 

Traditions ..... not a real big deal, but when I was a kid, my air rifle (B-B gun) was doing well to kill a sparrow. What a stretch it is to see a B-B gun being considered as any kind of deer hunting weapon of tradition. You asked why I use a bow, and "tradition, culture and heritage" was all part of my answer. It was never about trying to re-live my childhood. You misunderstood the kind of tradition that I was talking about.

 

Cost vs. performance: My .270 Ruger American is a fairly decent quality gun, and it cost no where near the numbers I saw in this thread of one of these air rifles. The .270 will handle 95% of the shooting opportunities in NYS when it comes to deer. That's not the picture I am getting of these air-guns. So again, I do question the price vs. performance issue of opting for an air rifle. At least there is a huge issue there that I need more convincing on before I get all excited about running out and buying one of these things....lol. I do wonder about what the recommended maximum effective range is for deer. And I am curious about terminal energies and what is considered to be too far to ethically use one of these. I was hoping for more technical data on performance, but I guess I am not really all that interested to go on a research mission.

 

But anyways, I guess I can now see a use for air-rifles in urban/suburban areas, which I will never really have to concern myself with. It certainly would never be my choice for the more traditional rural hunting by any stretch of the imagination. And perhaps it may be a desirable thing for kids where the massive kick of a .270 or .243 is just simply overwhelming (Sarcasm intended) . Oh yeah and other situations where noise may be a concern it might serve as a weapon with the features of a silencer that some may be interested in. Anyway, that's a pretty small niche, but does answer why somebody might consider buying one. I guess I am satisfied that there is nothing there for me, and I thank you for the answers.

[shawnhu]

When it comes to challenge, you will have a real hard time convincing me that there is any comparison between any rifle of any sort and any bow of any sort. That is not even something that I would seriously waste time discussing because that is just a foolish comparison. You talked about the sub-moa accuracy, and then try to compare the challenge to that of a bow. Your comparisons with archery equipment are a hell of a reach at best in terms of a challenging method of deer hunting, and that is a judgment that doesn't really require any shooting experience with one of these rifles to make.

As far as level of archery skills/challenges, I have to say that I watched Stacey Groscup shoot aspirins out of the air with a recurve, but I wouldn't exactly call that something that the average archer can do. Yes a dozen yards was a bit short and was mentioned in the context of a beginning archer of the recurve days (me), but I and many other people start getting a little uncomfortable after 25 yards. That is more likely the maximum efficient range of the average archer today. And yes with that limited distance the challenge is way more than any kind of rifle. So that point isn't even arguable.

Quote: "The ballistic performances isn't much different than that of a broad head from archery equipment. Both implements primarily kill by means of wound channel and hemorrhaging."

So you are saying that these big bore air rifle have the same looping trajectory as an arrow? See, when it comes to performance, I know nothing about these rifles, so I am surprised to hear that the performance is so poor. It sounds like a rangefinder would be a necessary accessory. But let me clear up one thing about the theory of killing between a blunt rifle projectile and a broadhead. The broadhead relies on sharp-edge laceration to penetrate to the vitals. Most bullets that I know of rely on energy and impact to penetrate to the vitals. That is a whole opposite theory of getting the job done with absolutely no similarity. I just wanted to straighten that point out a bit.

So anyway, basically in every instance where you try to compare any rifle to a bow, the comparison fails miserably because there really is no comparison. Each weapon is unique in form and function with no similarities of any sort. You picked a bad weapon to try to compare air rifles against. That is a true attempt at apples and oranges type comparison, and not even that close of a comparison.

Traditions ..... not a real big deal, but when I was a kid, my air rifle (B-B gun) was doing well to kill a sparrow. What a stretch it is to see a B-B gun being considered as any kind of deer hunting weapon of tradition. You asked why I use a bow, and "tradition, culture and heritage" was all part of my answer. It was never about trying to re-live my childhood. You misunderstood the kind of tradition that I was talking about.

Cost vs. performance: My .270 Ruger American is a fairly decent quality gun, and it cost no where near the numbers I saw in this thread of one of these air rifles. The .270 will handle 95% of the shooting opportunities in NYS when it comes to deer. That's not the picture I am getting of these air-guns. So again, I do question the price vs. performance issue of opting for an air rifle. At least there is a huge issue there that I need more convincing on before I get all excited about running out and buying one of these things....lol. I do wonder about what the recommended maximum effective range is for deer. And I am curious about terminal energies and what is considered to be too far to ethically use one of these. I was hoping for more technical data on performance, but I guess I am not really all that interested to go on a research mission.

But anyways, I guess I can now see a use for air-rifles in urban/suburban areas, which I will never really have to concern myself with. It certainly would never be my choice for the more traditional rural hunting by any stretch of the imagination. And perhaps it may be a desirable thing for kids where the massive kick of a .270 or .243 is just simply overwhelming (Sarcasm intended) . Oh yeah and other situations where noise may be a concern it might serve as a weapon with the features of a silencer that some may be interested in. Anyway, that's a pretty small niche, but does answer why somebody might consider buying one. I guess I am satisfied that there is nothing there for me, and I thank you for the answers.

Doc, no one is trying to convince you of anything. You were the one that kept asking for answers, and I was inclined to explain it to you in a way you might comprehend. Glad you finally got the answers you seek. If you think shooting an airgun doesn't require any experience to make, you are sadly mistaken, but you already admitted to not having fired one, so I wouldn't expect you to know what's involved.

I wouldn't call an airgun having poor ballistic performance, but again, it's relative. Will an arrow tipped with a broad head allow for a larger kill zone? Yes. Does that make the bow a "better" weapon? You'll have to decide for yourself. Like you said, each implement is different in its our rights. I'm glad you finally see the point.

As far as bullets go and penetrating the hide, all you need is the right mix of momentum and sectional density to penetrate. The real killing power of a traditional powder propelled bullet is from bullet construction and KE as well as sectional density. The massive KE that most powder burners propel bullets at allows for rapid expansion of most bullets, thus increasing its diameter, while lowering its sectional density in the cavity of the animal. This increase is what causes hydrostatic shock, which is the main killing force of a powder burner bullet. Such is not true for Airguns. It's hemorrhaging by wound channel, just like a broad head. Not a comparison, but it's the closest I'll get to explaining how Airguns kill, without using an example from an illegal hunting implement.

While you're comparing traditional bows to Airguns, have you seen the video of the archer that shoots multiple arrows at multiple targets, while flying through the air? I don't know a single big bore airgunner that can do that. It really goes to show how different you can split each implement allowed for hunting in NYS. We can probably go on forever on how different or similar each implement is, but it doesn't really mean anything, as I've said, it's not about you or I as individuals. It's about opportunity for others. I just happen to be also an airgunner.

Happy Holidays!

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Edited December 26, 2015 by shawnhu

[mike rossi]

 

 

If NY DEC wants to let them in, so be it. But, the reasoning with the proposal makes no sense. It's all about noise. 

 

If you are referring to my earlier comments, your statement is a poor interpretation of what I said. 

[mike rossi]

have to come within 40 yards with a shotgun and then pick out pellets afterwards.  

 

I don't really want to interrupt the topic, but if you are excessively having to pick pellets out of small game then you need to reevaluate the shot size, choke, and distance you are shooting. Your comment concerns me , because we hear this sort of thing all the time, even from "outdoor writers" and it is a matter of not enough experience with hunting  and/or not paying attention. As time passes,  fewer and fewer people that actually hunt are writing the articles, working for the DECs, teaching hunter education/gun safety, and running the hunting organizations, we can't let misconceptions slide any longer.

 

Sometimes, shooting at 40 or more yards can result in more, not less pellets in meat, than game shot at moderate range - because at 40 plus yards pellets wont pass completely through, especially when tight chokes are used. Shot up meat happens occasionally, but if the so-called "shot-laced" meat occurs more than occasionally, its time to rethink. 

Edited December 26, 2015 by mike rossi

[mike rossi]

Yes, the threat was that if bowhunters didn't do the impossible, that is control deer populations for all of hunting but with a very inefficient weapon, they were going to introduce muzzleloaders into the bow seasons. Which by the way was an idea that they championed a decade ago before conjuring up an excuse to legitimize it. Don't kid yourself, phase two was really their phase one plan regardless of what bowhunters did or didn't do.

 

Point #2-  Is it the bang that turns deer nocturnal? Or is it the panic they experience when every time they turn around there is human scent slamming into their noses. I think that is more likely the cause than simply gunshots. As far as I know the shooting by small game hunters does not drive deer into nocturnal patterns unless the pressure becomes too intense. I suspect a sudden increase in deer hunter numbers due to any firearms being introduced will be the real reason for deer to hunker in and adapt their gun season defense mentality. So the DEC may be trying to make it appear that they are friends of bowhunters with some ploy like this, but frankly, I don't really think they give a damn anymore. As they say, "the gloves are off", and the new hardline against bowhunters has begun. They have now adopted the attitude that bowseason is a waste of good deer harvesting time and the quicker they get decent effective weapons into that season the better they can continue to satisfy the whining of NYS's moneyed interests. "Challenging" hunting methods be damned. That is a luxury they are no longer willing to entertain.

 

Doc,

 

If I hunt the same hole every few days, even if I was over a food plot or I broke the law and baited, ducks would either vacate or feed nocturnally. The DEC (or me) cannot be neither a polemicist  nor a remedial tutor for grown men who play with guns and arrows. 

 

Regarding your first paragraph; I believe there are how many bow hunters in NY , 35,000? What is the doe harvest among those hunters? Because if you look at deer reproductive biology, killing say 1,000 does makes a huge difference especially over three years are so. Click on the image below so it is more readable, and use your imagination.

 

Then, you have to consider the culture of using does as bait for bucks. The DEC may be more aware of hunter behavior than you think. 

Edited December 26, 2015 by mike rossi

[Bendog]

Working on the story now for our Jan. 8 edition of NY Outdoor News, but this is it in a nutshell regarding regs:

 

Air rifles would be allowed for taking big game only where other types of rifles are allowed.

 

So if you're in the state's rifle zone now, you would be good to go with an air rifle that meets the requirement for big game.....

[DirtTime]

If you are referring to my earlier comments, your statement is a poor interpretation of what I said. 

Nothing to do with anyone's statements or comments.

 

If they allow them I am fine with it. I have no issues with any legal weapon someone can use to make a clean kill on any game animal.

But why are they using a quietness factor for the whole proposal? That's what I say makes no sense.

 

I would also like to see what regs put on them as far as FPS. What about buying them? In NY you now have to be approved by NICS for a muzzle loader. So how will it work buying an air rifle if this passes?

[shawnhu]

Nothing to do with anyone's statements or comments.

If they allow them I am fine with it. I have no issues with any legal weapon someone can use to make a clean kill on any game animal.

But why are they using a quietness factor for the whole proposal? That's what I say makes no sense.

I would also like to see what regs put on them as far as FPS. What about buying them? In NY you now have to be approved by NICS for a muzzle loader. So how will it work buying an air rifle if this passes?

FPS will be 650, and current age restriction for any airgun is 18 I believe.

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